Draw Muhammad day

[A Troubled Man]

Where have I expressed Islam to others? What does that even mean?

Nice redirect. I was responding to your point, but I guess it's easier to just ignore that and pretend I'm making an accusation.

Are you accusing me of making demands? Did you read my posts? I said they have the right to be upset by the drawing, but they don't have the right to be violent. What's your problem with my opinion?

What demands? You're quoting me and repeating that Muslims can't make demands and "express Islam". Where have I done either of these?

More redirects. No, I wasn't making personal accusations, but I'm sure you knew that anyways.

 

[Quagmire]

It demonstrates solidarity against those who try to inhibit free speech by violence.

And the fact that it does so in a way that could incite violence against the person making the statement shows that the statement isn't just a matter of paying lip-service to the idea, since the person is taking on a measure of personal risk by making it the way they do.

Which persons? I doubt that the average adolescent taking part in the Face book fiasco is putting themselves in any danger. When the people who came up with the idea in the first place realized they could wind up at risk they backed out.

Cartoonist and Facebook page creator end involvement
On April 25, Norris wrote on her website that the response to her idea had surprised and shocked her: "I did not intend for my cartoon to go viral. I did not intend to be the focus of any 'group'. I practice the First Amendment by drawing what I wish. This particular cartoon of a 'poster' seems to have struck a gigantic nerve, something I was totally unprepared for. I am going back to the drawing table now!"[14][26] On April 26, she wrote on her website: "I am NOT involved in "Everybody Draw Mohammd [sic ] Day! I made a cartoon that went viral and I am not going with it. Many other folks have used my cartoon to start sites, etc. Please go to them as I am a private person who draws stuff".[8] She also asked Savage to replace the original illustration she had given him with another one she drew that was tamer, but Savage refused. Asked why she initially publicized it, she replied, "Because I'm an idiot."[8] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everybody_Draw_Mohammed_Day

I'm sure there are other ways that a person can express the sentiment "I will defend the right to free speech even if it costs me my life",

Not seeing that.

but not as easily or in such an organized way.

A lot of people are trying to paint the whole Draw Mohammad Day thing as some sort of political activism. It's actually re-activism.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Interesting points, but do you think you are going to change the attitudes of many Muslims by drawing Muhammad?

I don't think the intent is to change the attitudes of Muslims in general; only those who would use violence to suppress free speech... and I think the attitude change that the campaign aims for isn't to make them think that pictures of Muhammad are inoffensive; it's to make them realize that violence will be ineffective for achieving their aim.

... or, in a more general sense, it's to make them realize that their intended goal of suppressing free speech will be impossible.

Which persons? I doubt that the average adolescent taking part in the Face book fiasco is putting themselves in any danger.

Yeah, they're probably pretty safe... just like the thousandth person to jump up and say "I am Spartacus!" Still, I think that even if they experience a low level of risk themselves, this doesn't mean that they can't intend a message like "I will do this even if it's risky" behind it.

Also, their involvement serves a purpose: another big part of it is simple amplification. If the guy who attacked Kurt Westergaard, for example, realized that the net effect of his attack would be thousands more Muhammad cartoons than would have happened if he hadn't attacked him, maybe he'd have been less likely to try the attack in the first place. That teenager safe in his room in the Midwestern US is still part of those thousands.

When the people who came up with the idea in the first place realized they could wind up at risk they backed out.

All the more reason not to stop now, then. If the people that threatened the originators of the campaign learn that they can get their way through threats and violence, this will be encouragement to them and others that the tactic is a good one.

A lot of people are trying to paint the whole Draw Mohammad Day thing as some sort of political activism. It's actually re-activism.

It's a reaction to violence and threats of violence, yes. I don't see how that's a point against it, though.

 

[Quagmire]

Yeah, they're probably pretty safe... just like the thousandth person to jump up and say "I am Spartacus!" Still, I think that even if they experience a low level of risk themselves, this doesn't mean that they can't intend a message like "I will do this even if it's risky" behind it.

Also, their involvement serves a purpose: another big part of it is simple amplification. If the guy who attacked Kurt Westergaard, for example, realized that the net effect of his attack would be thousands more Muhammad cartoons than would have happened if he hadn't attacked him, maybe he'd have been less likely to try the attack in the first place. That teenager safe in his room in the Midwestern US is still part of those thousands.

Whatever the results may be I very much doubt the typical intentions are as noble as a lot of people (most of the participants in particular) are trying to make them out to be.

All the more reason not to stop now, then. If the people that threatened the originators of the campaign learn that they can get their way through threats and violence, this will be encouragement to them and others that the tactic is a good one.

The originators of the campaign actually backed out before they were threatened.

It's a reaction to violence and threats of violence, yes. I don't see how that's a point against it, though.

My point was that it isn't activism: ie., it isn't a concerted effort towards a constructive goal.

It's re-activism; it's responding to ignorance with ignorance.

Put it this way: what if some idiot in some major American City put one of those old Little Black Sambo signs in the front of his restaurant and a few irate locals burnt the place down.

Were they wrong? Yes, of course.
Was the restaurant owner an idiot? IMO, yup.

But, what if a bunch of people on FB decided to come up with a "Draw Little Black Sambo Day" as a protest, claiming that they were safe-guarding free speech and the rights of independent property owners? Who would buy that?

My point is that in a case like that my first thought would be: these are a bunch of ignorant bigots using this incident as an excuse to have a little fun at the expense of a whole lot of innocent bystanders.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My point was that it isn't activism: ie., it isn't a concerted effort towards a constructive goal.

It's re-activism; it's responding to ignorance with ignorance.

Put it this way: what if some idiot in some major American City put one of those old Little Black Sambo signs in the front of his restaurant and a few irate locals burnt the place down.

Were they wrong? Yes, of course.
Was the restaurant owner an idiot? IMO, yup.

But, what if a bunch of people on FB decided to come up with a "Draw Little Black Sambo Day" as a protest, claiming that they were safe-guarding free speech and the rights of independent property owners? Who would buy that?

My point is that in a case like that my first thought would be: these are a bunch of ignorant bigots using this incident as an excuse to have a little fun at the expense of a whole lot of innocent bystanders.

I think there's a big difference here: IMO, there wouldn't be a good reason to put up "Little Black Sambo" pictures in the first place. OTOH, the thing that eventually led to Everyone Draw Muhammad Day was an editorial cartoon: legitimate social comment.

 

[Quagmire]

I think there's a big difference here: IMO, there wouldn't be a good reason to put up "Little Black Sambo" pictures in the first place.

Hell, I'm sure the restaurant owner could come up with all kinds of "good reasons" that all kinds of people would agree with.

OTOH, the thing that eventually led to Everyone Draw Muhammad Day was an editorial cartoon: legitimate social comment.

Wiki says it was a response to the censorship of a South Park episode.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Wiki says it was a response to the censorship of a South Park episode.

South Park's had lots of legitimate social criticism as well, but I think the Danish cartoons were a major factor. "Everyone Draw Mohammed Day" started a few months after they were published... after all the uproar and threats started. The murder of Theo van Gogh was probably also a factor, although that occurred a few years before.

 

[839311]

Who are?

Muslims. The kind of reaction we saw in response to the cartoons is of a degree that I havn't seen in any other religions - at least in the present time. Im sure a similar reaction would have occured in Christian Europe several hundred years ago.

Targeted at who?

Muslims.

The answer to those two questions is different, which should simply demonstrate the obvious point that is somehow not being acknowledged.

It can be. We can get specific if we want, but I think that saying its targeted at muslims works just fine.

However, since 'Muslims' in general didn't actually do anything to warrant being targeted like this, perhaps you can see why targeting them, instead of the minority which actually did do something warranting this, would be inappropriate.

Well, yeah, not all muslims reacted like that. But a lot of them did. And a lot of them that didn't still feel very much offended, or think that those cartoonists should be killed. So it is being targeted at muslims, with whatever broad a brush. If we want to get specific, like saying that many muslims didn't have anything to do with it, thats fair. There are plenty of muslims out there who are great people. I think many people understand that, including the people who are participating in the draw muhammad day. If they don't understand that, then they are idiots, for whom pity is appropriate.

Yes, they did make it worse. Them and the ones who decided to react immaturely to what they did. They both made it worse for the other billion of Muslims who didn't do anything.

Fortunately well-developed people understand that not all muslims are like that. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there, whether its in the U.S., or Italy, or China, or Iran, or anywhere, who have a low level of development. Its up to well-developed people of every stripe to try to keep the idiots under control, especially those of a violent type.

 

[Quagmire]

Its up to well-developed people of every stripe to try to keep the idiots under control,

Problem is most idiots consider themselves well developed people.

 

[Anonymouse]

Quagmire writes: But, what if a bunch of people on FB decided to come up with a "Draw Little Black Sambo Day" as a protest, claiming that they were safe-guarding free speech and the rights of independent property owners? Who would buy that?

I'm not sure skin color would be a good example. Beliefs and attitudes can be adopted, changed and enlightened. Skin color is more of a permanent fixture.

 

[Quagmire]

I'm not sure skin color would be a good example. Beliefs and attitudes can be adopted, changed and enlightened. Skin color is more of a permanent fixture.

Ah, so you're saying African Americans can't help what they are, but Muslims can?

 

[Anonymouse]

Ah, so you're saying African Americans can't help what they are, but Muslims can?

Am I suggesting that it may be more sound and reasonable to convert a Muslim to another belief system then it is to transform an African American to Caucasion.

 

[Quagmire]

Am I suggesting that it may be more sound and reasonable to convert a Muslim to another belief system then it is to transform an African American to Caucasion.

You seem to be suggesting that both changes would be optimal, but that only one is practical.

In other words, if someone's offended by something because they're Muslim, well heck, they should just convert.

Doesn't sound like the fairest solution to me.

 

[Anonymouse]

You seem to be suggesting that both changes would be optimal, but that only one is practical.

Let me put it into this context: I have witnessed babies being born black. I have yet to see for myself or documented evidence of a baby being born with a Quran or a Torah (honestly, where would they put it?).

Quagmire writes: In other words, if someone's offended by something because they're Muslim, well heck, they should just convert.
Doesn't sound like the fairest solution to me

If you were in a religion that honored and promoted peace above everything else and this axiom was not being upheld and regulated to the point that your religion degraded into barbarism, what would be your incentive to stay? If I’m not mistaken, there are many Muslims who are appalled and strongly disagree with cartoon killings. What are the reasons for these people to still be affiliated with Islam?

 

[Debater Slayer]

If you were in a religion that honored and promoted peace above everything else and this axiom was not being upheld and regulated to the point that your religion degraded into barbarism, what would be your incentive to stay? If I’m not mistaken, there are many Muslims who are appalled and strongly disagree with cartoon killings. What are the reasons for these people to still be affiliated with Islam?

Maybe because they know that Islam is not about cartoon killings, as many people seem to think it is.

 

[Anonymouse]

Maybe because they know that Islam is not about cartoon killings, as many people seem to think it is.

Used To Be, About, Becoming and Yet To Be are totally separate (and changing) concepts. I know and understand what Islam wants to be ( and it is commendable) and totally understand and identify what it is not.

 

[Me Myself]

You seem to be suggesting that both changes would be optimal, but that only one is practical.

In other words, if someone's offended by something because they're Muslim, well heck, they should just convert.

Doesn't sound like the fairest solution to me.

They are not offended merely because they are muslim .

They are offended because the choose (while not necesarily consciously) to be offended.

Other people wont adhere to the same rules as islam, so it is understandable to let go the perception of offense by simple pictures.

 

[Anonymouse]

Other people wont adhere to the same rules as islam, so it is understandable to let go the perception of offense by simple pictures.

If the eye offends thee.....:areyoucra

What is truly amazing is that the solution could be as simple as the pictures.

Don't like the pictures?
DON'T LOOK AT THEM!!

simple, isn't it?

 

[Gharib]

Let me put it into this context: I have witnessed babies being born black. I have yet to see for myself or documented evidence of a baby being born with a Quran or a Torah (honestly, where would they put it?).

There is a baby who has been born with verses of the Qur'an and there are children who before they can speak their own mother language they know Arabic and the Qur'an. But let me put you out of your misery, that's just a load of bull right?

And one more thing, Muslims and many non-Muslims alike have not supported the actions of those who have gone to the extreme and dislike the dishonesty of people like you, and still Islam and Muslims are to blame. Wow that's a really twisted way of thinking and reasoning. Good luck in life.

 

[Gharib]

If the eye offends thee.....:areyoucra

What is truly amazing is that the solution could be as simple as the pictures.

Don't like the pictures?
DON'T LOOK AT THEM!!

simple, isn't it?

What a load of hypocrisy. But do prove me wrong OK.

Don't like Islam and it's rules, ignore it and don't be mindful of us.