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Drunken rape

misanthropic_clown

Active Member
Except that under your proposed system, Mr. Y claims intoxication, either alcohol or whatever drug of his choice, and then the system says, "So sorry Mr. Y, your being intoxicated means you get the much lesser charge..."

And you justify this by claiming that it might lead to more convictions?

But you've missed the point of it. In order to qualify for that defence, he has to plead guilty to the lower rape charge, rather than denying it outright as I assume the vast majority of rape defendants do. And noone said anything about 'much lesser',the punishment would still be severe.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
What about this case?
Man accused of a rape that his lawyer victim 'was too drunk to remember'

Man accused of a rape that his lawyer victim 'was too drunk to remember' | Mail Online
By Vanessa Allen

A man has gone on trial accused of raping a lawyer who claims she was too drunk to have agreed to sex.

The alleged victim said she found Peter Bacon lying naked next to her in bed one morning with no memory of what had gone before.

She immediately accused the chef of taking advantage of her, shouting: 'It's because of b******s like you that the law has been changed.'

Prosecutor Kerry Malin said the woman was referring to a 2007 legal ruling that someone who is drunk may not be capable of giving consent.

'She told him she was a lawyer and knew it was rape if she was unable to say yes. She had no capacity to say yes,' added Miss Malin.

The woman was still twice the drink-drive limit later that day when she had a medical examination. Tests proved the pair did have sex.

Bacon, 26, voluntarily went to a police station and told them what the lawyer had said when he woke up in her bed.

He said he wanted to find out what his legal position was but was arrested and later charged.

The lawyer, who cannot be named for legal reasons, had been drinking heavily on the night of the alleged attack, Winchester Crown Court was told.

She shared a meal and four bottles of wine with her former flatmate, who then invited Bacon over to the house for a few drinks. By that stage the lawyer said she was so drunk that she cannot remember the chef arriving or her former flatmate leaving half an hour later.

But the court heard the woman, who is in her 30s, then shared another two bottles of wine with Bacon before going to bed.

She woke the next morning to find him lying naked behind her with her underwear, jumper and trousers lying jumbled in a pile next to the bed.

She said: 'I came to and was aware of somebody lying next to me. I was lying on my side and someone was behind me with their hand on my left breast.

'I was terribly shocked and I was hyperventilating. I thought it was possible that I had had sex but did not know until I went for a medical examination.

'I was too drunk to consent to anything. I swore at him and said "It's because of b******s like you that the law has been changed". He did not say anything.

'I ran downstairs and went into the kitchen, which was in a mess with bottles of wine lined up on a table. When I returned to the bedroom he was getting dressed very hastily and ran out of the front door, leaving his socks behind.'

The woman contacted a friend and said she believed she had been raped the night before.

She attended the medical examination later that morning.

Judith Khan, defending, claimed that the woman had consented at every stage of sexual activity during the alleged assault on February 17 last year.

During cross-examination, she told the woman: 'You got into the bed first and Mr Bacon got in after you. You helped him to remove your clothing.'

She said that she had performed a sex act on him and then had sex.

'Throughout, you were participating in all areas of sexual activity. At no stage were you unwilling to participate.

'The next morning you asked him if you had had sex and he said yes.

'You may have regretted what happened the night before but you had fully participated and consented with what went on between you.'

The alleged victim repeated that she was too drunk to have consented to anything. Miss Malin told the court the woman was aware the law surrounding rape, alcohol and consent had changed because of her legal experience.

She said: 'The victim's reaction when she woke up was one of horror. She shouted at Bacon and became hysterical.'

She said the woman told the chef she knew about the new law on rape and told him in no uncertain terms to leave.

Bacon, of Canterbury in Kent, denies rape. The trial continues.

  • Judges were told in late 2007 that a woman may not be capable of giving consent if she is drunk, even if she is still conscious.

    Earlier that year, three Appeal Court judges quashed the conviction of 25-year-old software engineer Benjamin Bree who was jailed for five years the previous December after a drunken evening with a 19-year-old student.

    The girl told the jury that she did not want to have sex, but Mr Bree told the court she had given her consent. One of the judges said sex amounts to rape if the woman is incapable of giving consent.

    But he added: 'Where the complainant has voluntarily consumed even substantial quantities of alcohol, but nevertheless remains capable of choosing whether or not to have intercourse, and in drink agrees to do so, this would not be rape.'
 

misanthropic_clown

Active Member
If a women can get so drunk she does not have the capacity to form consent, why should a man be held to have full responsibility for his actions if he also gets drunk and they end up sleeping together? There is no evidence to support that the man acted in a predatory fashion. Was it stupid and wrong of him? Possibly. Should he be considered to be in the same league as the kind of person who gets a woman drunk in order to have sex without proper consent (which was what I believe the judges ruling was supposed to be protecting against)? No.

I don't see what merit there is in mixing the two. I'd bet you he is found not guilty, or perhaps a hung jury, because there will be plenty of jury members who find the alcohol to be far too big a confounding factor, not only because it prevents the facts of the case from coming to light, but they will think that the man shouldn't be guilty of rape because of the amount of alcohol clouding both parties' judgments. With distinct basic and specific intent charges, some of the confounding element would be eliminated. Drunken rape is still a crime, but it is not my view it is in the same league as some of the other offences bundled together in that same category.
 

misanthropic_clown

Active Member
What would be the difference in penalty?

I think that the only real difference would be that the less serious charges would carry a wide scope for applying mitigating and aggravating factors whereas the serious predatory charges would probably be assumed to carry life sentences. I can't say I am in a position to suggest anything more specific.

EDIT: And perhaps towards the lesser end of the scale, putting the offender on any Sex Offenders register would be discretionary as opposed to being the assumed course of action, though of course under rather exceptional circumstances. This would also make offenders more willing to admit to lesser charges, as well as reflecting the fact that some of these offenders may not actually pose a public risk.
 
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DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
If they are BOTH drunk (near or the same level of intoxication)..and the woman does not say no..and they have sex..its not rape.Its two people that have both lost the ability to "consent" with full capacity.Its a "wash".Because he could very easily say the same thing.That he did not want to have sex with her either and only consented because he was inibriated.

If the man is sober and she is drunk..He has no business having sex with her in that state of mind. Even if she says she wants to.He should tell her If you still want to once you sober up then fine..Untill then Im not touching you.And vice versa.Especially when you are talking about someone you just met.Or a casual aquaintence.But again it goes both ways.If Im sober and a man is rip roaring drunk..he is easily seduced.He may even be begging for it.But Its not right to take advantage of someone who may not even remember the next day what they said or did.

(unless its my husband..LOL!!)

Love

Dallas
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Let's reverse the scenario. A married man is out partying with a female friend from work. The both end up very drunk and the woman asks the man to have sex. In his drunken condition he agrees but when he wakes up with the woman he has no memory of agreeing. He is filled with regret and fear of what his spouse will think and do. I also knows he never would never have done this while sober so he says the woman raped him, taking advantage of his drunken state to have sex with him.

Should this be considered rape? Should the woman be considered a sex offender? A predator?
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Let's reverse the scenario. A married man is out partying with a female friend from work. The both end up very drunk and the woman asks the man to have sex. In his drunken condition he agrees but when he wakes up with the woman he has no memory of agreeing. He is filled with regret and fear of what his spouse will think and do. I also knows he never would never have done this while sober so he says the woman raped him, taking advantage of his drunken state to have sex with him.

Should this be considered rape? Should the woman be considered a sex offender? A predator?

If they are BOTH drunk there is no rape ..unless one uses physical force.IMHO.

Its called "regret' not rape.

Love

Dallas
 

misanthropic_clown

Active Member
Let's reverse the scenario. A married man is out partying with a female friend from work. The both end up very drunk and the woman asks the man to have sex. In his drunken condition he agrees but when he wakes up with the woman he has no memory of agreeing. He is filled with regret and fear of what his spouse will think and do. I also knows he never would never have done this while sober so he says the woman raped him, taking advantage of his drunken state to have sex with him.

Should this be considered rape? Should the woman be considered a sex offender? A predator?

I think so, but unfortunately too many people have a tendency to assume the one responsible for sexual activity is the man under pretty much all circumstances.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
The gender bias issue is a very good point. In the example given of the lawyer claiming rape, how drunk was the man? Wasted, like the woman? Just a little tipsy?

More pressing to my mind is the allegation that she was an eager participant. If this is true, I don't think it can be called rape at all. (Though I wonder where the defense attorney got that information.)
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Should this be considered rape? Should the woman be considered a sex offender? A predator?

The fact that she asked for sex and he consented while they were BOTH drunk does not make her a sexual predator.If Im drunk off my butt with a man who is drunk off his butt and he says wanna have sex and I say SURE why not..and we have sex.I have not been raped.If he was sober I would think completely differently..

But having said that..if BOTH are drunk..and the man wants sex and she says no..and he forces it on her I dont care if he was drunk or not.That is rape.

Love

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
The gender bias issue is a very good point. In the example given of the lawyer claiming rape, how drunk was the man? Wasted, like the woman? Just a little tipsy?

More pressing to my mind is the allegation that she was an eager participant. If this is true, I don't think it can be called rape at all. (Though I wonder where the defense attorney got that information.)

My post got lost..

Anyway.I agree.

There is a difference between being so drunk you have "black outs"..and a little bit tipsy..

If a man has a few beers and has a buzz on..he has no excuse to sleep with a woman who is staggering drunk.He cant say .."well I was drinking too"..

Love

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
This is kind of funny in a sad way..My husband has asked me before.."did we have sex last night"...and I have said ummm...yeah..And he was like..Oh ..I thought so..but then I thought maybe I was dreaming..LOL!!!..(see it wasnt a black out ..he remembered ..just wasnt sure if it was real or not).

Love

Dallas
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
My opinion is that if both are drunk and both are willing then there is no rape. It doesn't matter if you regret it afterwards or not. And, like Dallas, if either says no then it is rape or if the other is sober then it is rape.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
It doesn't matter if you regret it afterwards or not.

Right..regret is not the equivelent of being violated or raped.You should be mad at yourself..not the other drunk person.

Trey..its funny..on your other thread "mens rights" I mentioned that movie "Knocked Up"..they were both drunk.The next day..It was the guy that asked her "did we have sex last night"?..It was she..who "remembered"..

You would like that movie..Its right on topic with some of the stuff you are bringing up now.

Love

Dallas
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
I mentioned that movie "Knocked Up"..they were both drunk.The next day..It was the guy that asked her "did we have sex last night"?..It was she..who "remembered"..

You would like that movie..Its right on topic with some of the stuff you are bringing up now.

Yeah, I still haven't seen that one but it's on my list. While I like comedies, I tend to favor sci-fi and horror. With a 6 year old who commands most of my attention I don't get to see as many movies as I would like so I tend to be picky. Still, I'll probably see Knocked Up when the opportunity presents. Thanks! :D

The two of us may not always agree but in this thread I think it's safe to say our views are the exact same.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Exactly. Someone would still have to be a lowlife piece of **** to sexually assault someone, regardless if they were drunk or not. There's never an excuse.

Yeah..I want to clarify that..I do not think it should be a "lesser degree" of rape..If man who is drunk forces himself on a woman ..He cant say.."well I wouldnt have raped her if I had been sober"..thats a crock.Rape is an act of violence.And if you committ an act of violence while you are drunk is no defense.

Otherwise drunkeness would be a defense for all acts of violence.Where would it end?.."Oh I only beat my child because I had one to many ?I would never do that "sober"?

Being drunk and getting behind the wheel and killing someone is no defense for murder..It doesnt matter if you "never intented" on killing anyone.

You can "sympathise" or "empathise" and realize that is not the persons "true character" when sober..IOW they may not be "sociopaths".

But I would think it should be up to the victim on how much "leniency" should be afforded the person ..if any..

Because a lot of people get "drunk" and still would never rape anyone..or beat a child..or go for a drive..

Love

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Yeah, I still haven't seen that one but it's on my list. While I like comedies, I tend to favor sci-fi and horror. With a 6 year old who commands most of my attention I don't get to see as many movies as I would like so I tend to be picky. Still, I'll probably see Knocked Up when the opportunity presents. Thanks! :D

The two of us may not always agree but in this thread I think it's safe to say our views are the exact same.

Cool!!!

Peace out brother ..I love it!! :)(us getting in synch)

Love

Dallas

( and by all means..do NOT let your 6 year old sweetie watch my movie recommendation..Its for "adults" only".. ;))
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Yeah..I want to clarify that..I do not think it should be a "lesser degree" of rape..If man who is drunk forces himself on a woman ..He cant say.."well I wouldnt have raped her if I had been sober"..thats a crock.Rape is an act of violence.And if you committ an act of violence while you are drunk is no defense.

Otherwise drunkeness would be a defense for all acts of violence.Where would it end?.."Oh I only beat my child because I had one to many ?I would never do that "sober"?

Being drunk and getting behind the wheel and killing someone is no defense for murder..It doesnt matter if you "never intented" on killing anyone.

You can "sympathise" or "empathise" and realize that is not the persons "true character" when sober..IOW they may not be "sociopaths".

But I would think it should be up to the victim on how much "leniency" should be afforded the person ..if any..

Because a lot of people get "drunk" and still would never rape anyone..or beat a child..or go for a drive..

Love

Dallas

Right. It comes down to personal responsibility and accountability. And alcohol doesn't create or instill violent or predatory behavior, it just makes it easier for something that's already there to come out.
 
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