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Drunken rape

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I think it's still rape. If she's saying "no" when he's "one thrust away", she probably has a damn good reason.

Of course she does..nevermind..my imagination ran wild to "mid thrust" she said no thrust happens anyway..before he even had a chance to stop.

Im not defending rape..I have been there..I have been molested as a child(at 5) by "older" boys that were "developed" I lost my virginity to rape because I was "permiscuous" and on and on and on and on ....

Maybe I say "one thrust" is understandable because ..that would be better than the alternatives..I dont know..

But I am not a rape apologist..

Love

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Making drunken sexual assault into a sort of "rape lite" will not improve this situation.

No it wont..

Like I mentioned before..It would make "murder lite" if you were drunk..

Then what.."oh I was trippin on acid when I blew that building up"? Sorry you cant blame me all the way??

Love

Dallas
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Of course she does..nevermind..my imagination ran wild to "mid thrust" she said no thrust happens anyway..before he even had a chance to stop.

Im not defending rape..I have been there..I have been molested as a child(at 5) by "older" boys that were "developed" I lost my virginity to rape because I was "permiscuous" and on and on and on and on ....

Maybe I say "one thrust" is understandable because ..that would be better than the alternatives..I dont know..

But I am not a rape apologist..

Love

Dallas

Ah, I see! You were thinking of just the momentum issue. I don't suggest that men should be able to teleport themselves instantly to a safe distance the minute she says no. :D Although that would be nice. IME, while most men I've been with will accept a "no" whatever they happen to be in the middle of doing, although on occasion it has taken a bit of shoving.

By the way, dear, your doctor is a ****. There's no such thing as a "rape me" sign, and promiscuity is not an invitation. I'm WAY more promiscuous than you are, and I have never had the misfortune of an experience like you've described. I traveled all over Europe by myself when I was 18 and lived in the seediest neighbourhood in Canada. The worst I've ever had to deal with was a couple instances of guys trying to have sex with me while I was drunk or asleep, or both. You had bad luck, is all, and maybe you were a poor judge of character, but what happened to you could happen to anyone, no matter how chaste and pure. For example, a good Christian friend of mine who wanted to save herself for marriage was raped by a boyfriend she'd been with for months who disagreed with her on that particular point, and when I met her she'd never been with anyone else since. Likewise, another friend lost her virginity to rape by a boyfriend, and she is very "sensible". If promiscuity and recklessness is really a factor, it would have been me - not them.

:hugehug:
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Thats how I lost my virginity by the way.I said stop at the beginning because it hurt...I told him to stop..I said I "changed my mind I dont want to"..I told him he was hurting me..I told him the whole way through..I cried..He just kept right on going.."shhh"..he said..It will be "o.K. and "I love you " he said..

Date rape, very sorry to hear that. When young adults are just starting to explore sex either one could have a change of heart at any time. Sure it's frustrating to the other party but they should be ready for it and understanding. I can remember a couples times when the girl decided last minute no and once we were both drunk as monkeys, buck naked and she said not without a condom. And so nothing happened. These are the things that should be taught to kids instead of just expecting them not to have sex at all. What to expect, what to do and where the line is drawn.
 

McBell

Unbound
Date rape, very sorry to hear that. When young adults are just starting to explore sex either one could have a change of heart at any time. Sure it's frustrating to the other party but they should be ready for it and understanding. I can remember a couples times when the girl decided last minute no and once we were both drunk as monkeys, buck naked and she said not without a condom. And so nothing happened. These are the things that should be taught to kids instead of just expecting them not to have sex at all. What to expect, what to do and where the line is drawn.
I agree.
However there are so many parents who refuse to discuss it with their children and then complain when anyone else does.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
There's no such thing as a "rape me" sign, and promiscuity is not an invitation.

I agree with what you mean here but I'd like to offer another view. It is not what the person raped does that defines a "rape me" sign but rather what the rapist sees. A rapist will see what he needs to see in order to justify to himself what he does. For some they feel all women are prey so they all have rape me signs on them. For others its any who where their clothes a certain way or the color of their hair and for some its if they resemble someone from their life, a cheerleader who mocked him or even his mother. In other cases it is cultural. The Arabs consider hair to be beautiful and capible of driving a man to rape. But the most important thing to remember, its in the eyes of the rapist not the woman. You can't worry about not being attractive to any and all men because they could be a rapist.
 

rageoftyrael

Veritas
Okay, sounds logical, didn't expect you to agree to the last question, just curious. I also agree that rape is never the woman's fault(or guys if it comes to that). Rape, in any form, is the fault of the person who can't control themselves enough to stop, or in the obvious case, decide to do it in the first place. Rapists, of any type, disgust me!

I just knew this was a discussion of rape and I brought up hypotheticals, to see other people's opinions. Even if you are the hottest chick in the world and are walking around naked with a rape me sign strapped on your back, you shouldn't get raped. We live in a time where we are supposed to be enlightened and civilised. That means we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard.

No means no. I agree with that sentiment completely. Just thought i would let everyone know my opinion instead of thinking that i actually agree with some of the questions i asked.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I agree with what you mean here but I'd like to offer another view. It is not what the person raped does that defines a "rape me" sign but rather what the rapist sees. A rapist will see what he needs to see in order to justify to himself what he does. For some they feel all women are prey so they all have rape me signs on them. For others its any who where their clothes a certain way or the color of their hair and for some its if they resemble someone from their life, a cheerleader who mocked him or even his mother. In other cases it is cultural. The Arabs consider hair to be beautiful and capible of driving a man to rape. But the most important thing to remember, its in the eyes of the rapist not the woman. You can't worry about not being attractive to any and all men because they could be a rapist.

A fair point, although there are certain qualities that make a person (male or female) more likely to be attacked. A violent attacker is governed by the same instincts that guide any predator: they go for the weak. A study I heard about (and just looked up) showed that people convicted of violent offenses tend to choose victims who look lost, fidgety, awkward, have poor posture, keep their eyes down, look uncomfortable in their bodies, don't make eye contact, etc. In fact, the women who DO have "assault me" signs on their backs (in a manner of speaking) are EXACTLY the opposite of the public myth of the woman who is "asking for it".

An attacker sees what he needs to see, in a sense, because they are not conscious of why they target the way they do. Their choices have nothing to do with age, size, build or color. What they need to see is who is unlikely to put up a fight.

This blog entry sums up the research I was talking about. I experienced the effectiveness of displaying confidence when I was traveling. There was one night when the train platform I needed to use to get back to the hostel was closed for some reason. I didn't speak French well enough to understand the instructions of the guy at the kiosk, so I was shuffling around looking uncertain and lost, and I was like a MAGNET. I am not kidding you. At one point, I stopped in a phone booth to try to call the hostel and about SIX GUYS started converging on me from the shadows in six different directions. I hung up and got out of there. That night, two different guys followed me all over the place saying "No more trains tonight - come back to my place and I'll drive you home tomorrow." Anyway, long story short, I made it back to the hostel eventually, and spent an afternoon learning how to say "**** off" in French, in no uncertain terms. From then on I walked with purpose, even when I didn't know where I was going, looked strange men in the eye and told them to **** off before they got within ten feet of me. Nobody ever bothered me again.
 
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rageoftyrael

Veritas
That is awesome! F off you loser, im not prey! I'm a guy, so i really don't have to worry about it(for the most part), but i love that! I'm not violent, but when i think about people who prey on the weak(percieved anyway), i just get my blood up. I desire to beat said predators into pulp, let them be the prey for once! Eh, don't want you guys thinking im some kind of violent freak. I hate predators though! They make all guys look bad.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
That is awesome! F off you loser, im not prey! I'm a guy, so i really don't have to worry about it(for the most part), but i love that! I'm not violent, but when i think about people who prey on the weak(percieved anyway), i just get my blood up. I desire to beat said predators into pulp, let them be the prey for once! Eh, don't want you guys thinking im some kind of violent freak. I hate predators though! They make all guys look bad.

Well, to be fair, the predators studied were not only sexual predators. There were muggers and killers and whatnot as well. So the lessons learned are equally applicable to men.

Just to add more flavour to the pot, while I was traveling I met the Happy Hooker's daughter-in-law on a train, and she passed on some genuine hooker wisdom: she told me if I was ever in a situation I fear might turn into a rape, I should take the initiative. Act as though I'm totally up for it. Be lewd and sexually aggressive. In most cases (she said) he will run away or won't be able to "perform". She was the first to explain to me that rape is about power, not sex. She said she'd tried it herself and it worked exactly as advertised. I don't want to ever have to try it myself, but the psychology of it makes perfect sense.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Date rape, very sorry to hear that. When young adults are just starting to explore sex either one could have a change of heart at any time. Sure it's frustrating to the other party but they should be ready for it and understanding. I can remember a couples times when the girl decided last minute no and once we were both drunk as monkeys, buck naked and she said not without a condom.


This had nothing to do with "condoms"...He had one of those on..

Love
Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
An attacker sees what he needs to see, in a sense, because they are not conscious of why they target the way they do. Their choices have nothing to do with age, size, build or color. What they need to see is who is unlikely to put up a fight.

This is what my doctor meant..When I asked him that question I thought his answer would be "no of course not". When he siad "yes" I was embarrased..But he said that an abuser or even a user will "pick you out" of the crowd if you seem vulnerable.In my case believe it or not I was very shy..and on the quiet side..I had a low self esteem and was yearning to be "loved"..I had something in me that wouldnt say "no".I didnt want the person to not like me or get mad at me.So I would just go along with whatever they wanted from me.I didnt have the "nerve" to say get away from me.Or 'I dont want to do that"..So once I started..word got around..that I would "do it" and I was a sitting duck.I wanted to be accepted..I was vulnerable..At the same time I didnt even know anything was being done wrong against me..Only that I felt violated..I guess I thought thats just the way everyone is.And then of course the shame and guilt of being a "****" added on top ...didnt help.Plus I was drinking by then too.Then a baby at 14 yada yada..

Thats what he meant by having a "sign on my back"..I wasnt flirty or boastful..I was 'friendly"...

I dont think its a coincidence that I had the experience when I was 5.That I never told my mother about untill was grown.I think that set me up for future abuse.

Anyway ..the reason I asked my doctor that was I throughout my life was repeatedly taken advantage of..I even had some really "grotesque" sexual harrasment in the workplace (starting with my first job at 15 by my 30 year old marrried manager)..The funny thing is I never complained..I never said GET YOUR STINKING HANDS OFF OF ME.I was more like the "deer in the lights".Thats how it kept happening.I didnt have the nerve..I didnt want to "rock the boat"..plus I did always feel that somehow I asked for it.Oh I finally did get the nerve to tell on one guy..He was supposed to be taking me to another store location..(I was in computer sales)..He pulled the car off the road ..and started pawing all over me...I told him I was going to tell his wife..He begged me not to tell anyone..But I did..I told my now husband and my boss.

Anyway..I dont think my doctor was meaning to insinuate "I asked for it" or "deserved it".I think what he meant was I was the "type" that stood out as a safe bet for someone looking to abuse or use me.I also think I thought thats what I was for..and just part of life.

Anyway..just wanted to clarify..Sorry so off topic..

Love

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I agree.
However there are so many parents who refuse to discuss it with their children and then complain when anyone else does.

Yes..this was part of what made me the way I was..My mother just said..you arent supposed to have sex unless you are married.Period.She never got real honest about why and the dangers including people who will "pretend" to care about me ..or any of the emotional side of it..I was soooo ill equipped..

I honestly think my doctor was dead on right when I asked him "do I have a sign that says rape me" on my back..(and I dont mean even just full blown rape)..

I was the "perfect" combination ...My father died suddenly in a tragic accident when I was 4..at 5 I was molested by some older boys..My mother and her timidness and fear of discussing sex honestly with us children..the "its naughty and nasty and girls dont do that " attitude from society..But its for "married people" and then its a wonderful thing..

I was doomed..

Love

Dallas
 

BadBeast

Active Member
The thing is, there is a whole world of difference between the absurd scenario, with the Lawyer, and the Woman who woke up next to him, with no memory of the night before, or the inexperienced drunken teenage fumble that gets a bit out of hand, and the predatory rapist, who stalks women, and violently rapes them as his modus operandi.
The former examples are just something that you chalk up to experience, regrettable maybe, but unless there is clear coercion, violence, or a wilful ignoring of the womans pleas to stop, then it's not rape. Consent is mostly unspoken, and mutually accepted anyway in casual sex. I have never actually asked a woman, verbally, whether I could have have sex with her. Consent is generally implicit, and non verbal. You know whether someone wants to have sex with you or not, and if they don't want to do it, they are at liberty to withdraw from the activity, at any time. Those are the rules! And we learn them fairly early on as a normal part of our sociosexual developement.
This is all a very different kettle of fish to the predatory rapist, who sets out with the intent, not to have sex, but to rape a woman. This is how he operates. He doesn't commit rape because his responsibilty is diminished, or by mistake because he misreads all the the signs, he isn't even motivated by wanting consensual sex with a woman, in fact, it's not a sexual drive that motivates him, it's a power thing. He is a woman hater, a violent nasty inadequate little man, who has no desire for a normal sexual encounter, he wants to dominate, subjugate, and abuse women. He is a very different creature to the normal Man indeed.

The promiscuous "Jack the Lad" man about town, who goes out every weekend, and cops off with Partners down the Pub, in an atmosphere of alcohol, and testosterone fuelled bragadocio might be a little sad and seedy, but he is driven by a completely different motivation to the rapist. His exploits are not driven by a systematic need to disempower, and dominate women, but from honest lust.

The rapist is driven by a psychopathic need to dominate, and humiliate women. He is aroused only when his victim is begging him to stop, or trying to fight him off. He is never out of control, or impulsive, he knows exactly what he's doing, he has a favourite "type" of victim, and he sets out from the start to rape. He doesn't get carried away by a momentary loss of judgement, he is a predator, and he does it because it empowers him. He doesn't even pretend to want consensual sex, often lying in wait for his chosen victim somewhere quiet, where he will not be disturbed.
To treat the Office Lothario type, as being cut from the same cloth as one of these monsters is not realistic. Clumsy, Drunken fumbling sex when one or both parties are inebriated, is just that. Drunk, and clumsy. Nor borne out of hatred, or misogeny, but normal sexual desire. But there do seem to be both scenarios getting caught up in the the Court system. Jurys are not stupid. Nor are they acting from personal agendas.

The British Legal system is very tightly structured, and the Laws don't give much room for ambiguous verdicts. Guilty, or not guilty. And if the two people I've been describing here, are brought before the Court because of their sexual appetites, then they will both be charged with the same offence. And that's not really fair.
But this "degrees of rape" question does have to be addressed if we want to look at sentencing policies, and Judiciary attitudes th the problem.
 

BadBeast

Active Member
Not necessarily, no. It can affect performance, and lead to some extremely poor decisions, but it by no means prohibits function. If anything, it inflames desire. That's why it's so popular.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Not necessarily, no. It can affect performance, and lead to some extremely poor decisions, but it by no means prohibits function. If anything, it inflames desire. That's why it's so popular.

If you are drunk you are incapable of something as difficult as rape.
a febrile fumble is more like it.

After one or two drinks You are probably more interested in a few more rather than sex.

Those that go out intending to get laid rather than drunk, have one or two for dutch courage, but sex or Rape is on their mind from the start.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't think there's any need to seperate the two. I think what's important is the victim, if the rapist raped by 'mistake' or on-purpose - he's still a rapist.
I think the law as ( outlined above) it stands is coming at the crime correctly - being drunk is no defence.
If juries need education regarding the law then it should be provided. Changing the law would be a mistake. Imagine society saying to a rape victim, "actually the rape you endured was less serious than other rapes because the poor divil that did it was drunk" - That would be insane, and wrong.
I agree with your reasoning. Similarly, I find the notion of "hate crimes" wrong. Is a victim
harmed more in a beating because of ethnic hatred than a beating because of misanthropy?
 

BadBeast

Active Member
The predatory rapist rarely gets drunk. They have a all consuming need to be in control all the time, in just about every area of their lives. Getting drunk does not offer them anything
they want.
 
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