Duties of the Messiah (Primarily Aimed at Christians)

[Rival]

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a youth I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son.

Here is the full verse:

For, when Israel was young, I loved him, and from Egypt I called My son.

This is clearly talking about the Exodus.

 

[Kenny]

According to R. David Kimchi in Isa. xl. 1. - Isaiah 40 is during the days of the Messiah, then John the Baptist fulfills: is 40:3 A voice of one calling: “In the wilderness prepare the way for the LORD ; make straight in the desert a highway for our God." who then pointed to Jesus.

 

[Brickjectivity]

After a discussion on another thread I've decided to make this one. There's pretty much 0 chance of this not becoming a debate so this section it is in.

I would like Christians to tell me how they know what to look for in the Messiah, what he is supposed to do and so on, using only the Tanakh ('OT').

Go!

Are you converting to Judaism? My understanding is that your position is that of a Noahide and not that of a converted Jew, so there is no danger that I will be thought of as a missionary to Jews if I reply. As you know Jews typically consider it to be offensive & arrogant when Christians try to missionize among them. I don't want to lose the brownie points which I am saving up for an awesome prank, someday.

 

[Rival]

According to R. David Kimchi in Isa. xl. 1. - Isaiah 40 is during the days of the Messiah, then John the Baptist fulfills: is 40:3 A voice of one calling: “In the wilderness prepare the way for the LORD ; make straight in the desert a highway for our God." who then pointed to Jesus.

But you're making an assumption here that the Messiah is a god. From whence?

I would argue that this passage is about the Jewish exiles returning to Jerusalem.

 

[Rival]

Are you converting to Judaism? My understanding is that your position is that of a Noahide and not that of a converted Jew, so there is no danger that I will be thought of as a missionary to Jews if I reply. As you know Jews typically consider it to be offensive & arrogant when Christians try to missionize among them. I don't want to lose the brownie points which I am saving up for an awesome prank, someday.

I'm not planning converting to Judaism (we'll see what the future holds though). All my beliefs are the same as mainstream Orthodox Jewish beliefs.

 

[Kenny]

Here is the full verse:

For, when Israel was young, I loved him, and from Egypt I called My son.

This is clearly talking about the Exodus.

As I understand it, there can be a double application of a prophecy - current and future.

There is much in Exodus which is a type and shadow of Jesus like when the waters of Jordan were separated from the City of Adam to the Dead Sea.

So I would apply it to both.

Or, as John Gill would say:

which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
not Balaam, in ( Numbers 23:22 ) or ( Numbers 24:8 ) but in ( Hosea 11:1 ) "when Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt": the meaning of which passage is, either in connection with the last clause of the foregoing chapter thus; "in a morning shall the king of Israel be cut off", (ren) (yk) , "because Israel is a child", a rebellious and disobedient one, acting a very weak and wicked part; "yet I have loved him, or do love him", and "have called", or "will call", (the past tense for the future, frequent in the Hebrew language, especially in the prophetic writings,) "my son out of Egypt"; who will be obliged to retire there for some time; I will make him king, set him upon the throne, who shall execute justice, and reign for ever and ever; or thus, "because Israel is a child", helpless and imprudent, and "I love him", though he is so, "therefore l will call", or I have determined to call

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'm not planning converting to Judaism (we'll see what the future holds though). All my beliefs are the same as mainstream Orthodox Jewish beliefs.

You seem to have the necessary brain power to learn all the stuff...languages and all that. I think you said you are somewhat capable with learning languages. I think that I have never tried to determine the answer to the question you pose, so for now I'll just wait and see what everyone else says.

 

[Rival]

As I understand it, there can be a double application of a prophecy - current and future.

There is much in Exodus which is a type and shadow of Jesus like when the waters of Jordan were separated from the City of Adam to the Dead Sea.

So I would apply it to both.

Or, as John Gill would say:

which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
not Balaam, in ( Numbers 23:22 ) or ( Numbers 24:8 ) but in ( Hosea 11:1 ) "when Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt": the meaning of which passage is, either in connection with the last clause of the foregoing chapter thus; "in a morning shall the king of Israel be cut off", (ren) (yk) , "because Israel is a child", a rebellious and disobedient one, acting a very weak and wicked part; "yet I have loved him, or do love him", and "have called", or "will call", (the past tense for the future, frequent in the Hebrew language, especially in the prophetic writings,) "my son out of Egypt"; who will be obliged to retire there for some time; I will make him king, set him upon the throne, who shall execute justice, and reign for ever and ever; or thus, "because Israel is a child", helpless and imprudent, and "I love him", though he is so, "therefore l will call", or I have determined to call

It specifically says Israel.

'Shadows' and so forth are Christian inventions.

 

[Kenny]

But you're making an assumption here that the Messiah is a god. From whence?

I would argue that this passage is about the Jewish exiles returning to Jerusalem.

Wouldn't disagree... just that, as mentioned before, there can be a double application.

As far as the "Messiah is a god" - or part of God as it would suggest in John 1:1

Micah 5:2 "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clan sof Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity."

there aren't too many entities that fulfill "His goings forth are... from the days of eternity".

 

[Kenny]

It specifically says Israel.

'Shadows' and so forth are Christian inventions.

And yet the Jewish people see prophetic utterances that refer to the Messiah. ps. the word "shadows " wasn't presented by as a Christian invention but by a Jewish Rabbi.

 

[rosends]

He would have to have a time in Egypt:

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a youth I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son.

I'm not clear on the invocation of this statement. The insertion of verse breaks allows one to ignore the continuation of the statement:
"Thus were they called, But they went their own way; They sacrifice to Baalim And offer to carved images."
The "called" then applies to one who sacrificed to idols. How would one understand the "call" in verse 1 to refer to Jesus without taking into account the description of the one called as an idolater?

 

[Cooky]

I don't think it's a fair debate under conditions that only allow for the explaining the Christian Messiah under the pretext of Orthodox Jewish texts. Obviously the Christian Messiah can't be based on those standards alone, or Christianity wouldn't exist in the first place.

...This looks like a set-up.

 

[rosends]

According to R. David Kimchi in Isa. xl. 1. - Isaiah 40 is during the days of the Messiah, then John the Baptist fulfills: is 40:3 A voice of one calling: “In the wilderness prepare the way for the LORD ; make straight in the desert a highway for our God." who then pointed to Jesus.

But doesn't Rabbi Kimchi also say that this verse was to provide consolation and tell the people that their time in exile was over? At the time of Jesus' birth, the Jews were not in exile.

 

[Rival]

As far as the "Messiah is a god" - or part of God as it would suggest in John 1:1

....without using or referring to any Christian texts.

Just imagine they don't exist.

 

[Harel13]

I don't think it's a fair debate under conditions that only allow for the explaining the Christian Messiah under the pretext of Orthodox Jewish texts. Obviously the Christian Messiah can't be based on those standards alone, or Christianity wouldn't exist in the first place.

...This looks like a set-up.

Look at it this way: Jews are equally denied bringing things from their Oral Tradition texts, because those aren't considered scripture by Christians (at least, by most of them). So...fair ground, I guess.

 

[Rival]

I don't think it's a fair debate under conditions that only allow for the explaining the Christian Messiah under the pretext of Orthodox Jewish texts. Obviously the Christian Messiah can't be based on those standards alone, or Christianity wouldn't exist in the first place.

...This looks like a set-up.

The whole idea of a Messiah is based on Jewish texts and yet the Christian idea of a messiah does not fit what the Jews believe their own texts say at all. I am asking Christians to justify their divergent belief. Remember, there was no Christian Testament when Jesus was around. The early Christians had the Scriptures they'd always had - so how did they come to the conclusion that Jesus is the messiah while reading them?

 

[Cooky]

Look at it this way: Jews are equally denied bringing things from their Oral Tradition texts, because those aren't considered scripture by Christians (at least, by most of them). So...fair ground, I guess.

The Roman Catholic Church accepts many oral Traditions of Judaism.

As the Second Vatican Council said, “It is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of devotion and reverence” (Dei Verbum 9).

Oral Tradition in the New Testament

 

[Rival]

The Roman Catholic Church accepts many oral Traditions of Judaism.

As the Second Vatican Council said, “It is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of devotion and reverence” (Dei Verbum 9).

This is talking about Christian tradition, such as Apostolic Succession.

 

[Cooky]

This is talking about Christian tradition, such as the Apostolic Succession.

It it geared toward that, but the CC is not restricted to that. I can name several ancient Oral Jewish Traditions that the Catholic Church accepts.

 

[Rival]

I can name several ancient Oral Jewish Traditions that the Catholic Church accepts.

Great.

But can you point to any verses in the Tanakh that could possibly fit the Jesus narrative?