Duties of the Messiah (Primarily Aimed at Christians)

[rosends]

It it geared toward that, but the CC is not restricted to that. I can name several ancient Oral Jewish Traditions that the Catholic Church accepts.

The obvious questions are "is there a differentiation made between the Oral Law and 'Oral Tradtion'?", "In what sense are they accepted?" and "why only those when there are so many traditions (some mutually exclusive among groups of Jews) to pick from?"

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I would like Christians to tell me how they know what to look for in the Messiah, what he is supposed to do and so on, using only the Tanakh ('OT').

Well, the spirituality I pursue aims to 'net disparate religions,' so I can't answer specifically from where you're aiming

Just wanted to point out that Jesus converted total strangers in mere moments, or seemed to, and I'm not sure if that is significant. Like passerby's would literally bump into him, say one or two sentences, and the man would approve of them and send them away. Or, he might preach to some crowd, probably approving them, despite probably only a dozen people being able to hear him clearly. So I guess it seems that no perquisite study was really required. He was in and out of one's vision like a butterfly , generally

 

[Rival]

Well, the spirituality I pursue aims to 'net disparate religions,' so I can't answer specifically from where you're aiming

Just wanted to point out that Jesus converted total strangers in mere moments, or seemed to, and I'm not sure if that is significant. Like passerby's would literally bump into him, say one or two sentences, and the man would approve of them and send them away. Or, he might preach to some crowd, probably approving them, despite probably only a dozen people being able to hear him clearly. So I guess it seems that no perquisite study was really required. He was in and out of one's vision like a butterfly , generally

Many cult leaders have done the same though.

 

[columbus]

Well, if you're going to go with a strict, and literal translation of the Tanakh, as a source for what the Messiah should be, then I think that represents literalism.

I believe that all this literature is fiction. No literalism!

It's you religious people who insist that your beliefs are from The Original Source.

If people are going to just make up anything they want to believe and attribute it to Scripture, why bother with Scripture at all? Just make a claim.
Tom

 

[columbus]

Just wanted to point out that Jesus converted total strangers in mere moments, or seemed to, and I'm not sure if that is significant.

Why do you believe that?

Because somebody said that somebody said, in a language you don't understand, that the authors the 4th century bishops thought He did?
Tom

 

[Brickjectivity]

I don't think it's a fair debate under conditions that only allow for the explaining the Christian Messiah under the pretext of Orthodox Jewish texts. Obviously the Christian Messiah can't be based on those standards alone, or Christianity wouldn't exist in the first place.

...This looks like a set-up.

Its all perfectly fair and good fun. No one will be harmed. I haven't posted anything but have downloaded a Karaite text -- which is not orthodox. Christians explaining things from a Tanach will share a few of the Karaite challenges, so maybe there is something there that will be interesting. Probably not. Its probably going to be about how to polish the lamp in the temple or something like that.

Maybe I can come up with an argument? Of course its not going to change any minds. That's really not what this is about.

 

[Brickjectivity]

After a discussion on another thread I've decided to make this one. There's pretty much 0 chance of this not becoming a debate so this section it is in.

I would like Christians to tell me how they know what to look for in the Messiah, what he is supposed to do and so on, using only the Tanakh ('OT').

Go!

Firstly both the Torah and the Psalms and the Prophets say it is impossible for me as a non-practitioner to be a judge of Torah. Secondly Paul (apostle from Jesus) also says that it is only the circumcised who are entrusted with the oracles of God, which I take to mean they aren't entrusted to me. Thirdly the Karaite text which I have consulted in preparation for this post says in an opening poem "Be diligent, O my heart, at the doors of understanding, And behave in accordance with God's Law, in faith, So that you not err in interpreting its words..." So...no Torah means no Torah interpretation by me. Therefore its impossible for me to have standing to answer the challenge of the OP, however even a blind and naked man can navigate using his toes and ears and can understand beauty.

 

[Cooky]

Its all perfectly fair and good fun. No one will be harmed. I haven't posted anything but have downloaded a Karaite text -- which is not orthodox. Christians explaining things from a Tanach will share a few of the Karaite challenges, so maybe there is something there that will be interesting. Probably not. Its probably going to be about how to polish the lamp in the temple or something like that.

Maybe I can come up with an argument? Of course its not going to change any minds. That's really not what this is about.

Great.

But can you point to any verses in the Tanakh that could possibly fit the Jesus narrative?

 

[Rival]

View attachment 42285

 

[Redemptionsong]

After a discussion on another thread I've decided to make this one. There's pretty much 0 chance of this not becoming a debate so this section it is in.

I would like Christians to tell me how they know what to look for in the Messiah, what he is supposed to do and so on, using only the Tanakh ('OT').

Go!

The only way to answer this question briefly is to say 'God with us'. What does the righteousness of God look like?

The righteousness of God takes two forms. The form of a truly loving friend who wants to reach your heart with the truth before you die; and the form of a Judge who wishes to call time on mercy and deliver justice against His enemies.

There are actually hundreds of types and passages that relate to the Messiah in the Hebrew scriptures. I believe that every word provides a piece in the jigsaw of the Messiah, the Word of God. This is why I love the scriptures, for they speak of HIM.

 

[Rival]

There are actually hundreds of types and passages that relate to the Messiah in the Hebrew scriptures. I believe that every word provides a piece in the jigsaw of the Messiah, the Word of God.

Give them.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Give them.

That means quoting the Tanakh from Genesis1:1 to Malachi 4:6.

 

[Rival]

That means quoting the Tanakh from Genesis1:1 to Malachi 4:6.

So you can't tell me what the Messiah is meant to do using any actual verses? How do you know what to look for when he comes? How can you tell who he is?

 

[Kenny]

I'm not clear on the invocation of this statement. The insertion of verse breaks allows one to ignore the continuation of the statement:
"Thus were they called, But they went their own way; They sacrifice to Baalim And offer to carved images."
The "called" then applies to one who sacrificed to idols. How would one understand the "call" in verse 1 to refer to Jesus without taking into account the description of the one called as an idolater?

Yes, if read straight through it would seem to be a problem. And you enumerated the problem quite distinctly!

To understand prophetic utterances, one must understand that one can flow from the natural (what is) to the supernatural (what is to come) much like what John's revelations recorded, "Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter" - but very hard to discern when what is changed to what is to come.

Let me see if I can give an example.

King David was singing a Psalm and just expressing his heart about the difficulties he was in, but then, in the midst of his prayer he moved into what is to come:

Psalm 22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

I picked out three obvious ones (though the whole of the Psalms expressed what Jesus went through.)

We know they didn't cast lots for David's garments but the did for Jesus the Messiah. We know they didn't pierce David's hands and feet but they did do it to Jesus the Messiah.

So, at what point is it "now" for King David and when was it "prophetic" - hard call many times.




In other words, Hosea dealt with both what was and yet still pointed out to Jesus.

 

[Harel13]

The Roman Catholic Church accepts many oral Traditions of Judaism.

As the Second Vatican Council said, “It is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of devotion and reverence” (Dei Verbum 9).

Oral Tradition in the New Testament

It seems to accept only the ones referenced in the NT, though. And I'm not 100% this was always the case.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As I understand it, there can be a double application of a prophecy - current and future.

Understanding? That strikes me as a very convenient description. In fact, it's little more than a technique to simply dismiss the text as written. The classic example of this is the Isaiah 7:14 dance ...

• Michael: I just don't understand why you ignore your own scripture. Isaiah tells us that our savior will be born of a virgin and that they'll call his name Emanuel. Obviously he's referring to Jesus.
• Shmuel: But that's not at all what the text says. [patiently proceeds to explain the Hebrew]
• Michael: Well, OK, but it 's also talking about Jesus. You see, it's a double application.
• Shmuel: (oy vey)

 

[Kenny]

But doesn't Rabbi Kimchi also say that this verse was to provide consolation and tell the people that their time in exile was over? At the time of Jesus' birth, the Jews were not in exile.

Absolutely, correct! But double application.

You have physical exiles and you have spiritual exiles.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Why a new covenant if the current covenant during that time was enough?

We know there was no "word from YHWY" for centuries.

So there remained a double application in that a new covenant brought those in spiritual exile back into full fellowship with YHWH.

 

[Kenny]

....without using of referring to any Christian texts.

Just imagine they don't exist.

LOL... you got it! So I will just stick to "the eternal" which it was mentioned as a god. I believe it was God.

 

[Redemptionsong]

[Sorry, meant for Rival]

If you follow this line of argument, you will see that David is one of many 'types' of Christ.

The LORD said to Samuel, 'I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite; for I have provided me a king among his sons'.[1 Samuel 16:1]

1 Samuel 1:13.'Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him [David] in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward.'

This is the same suffering servant that Isaiah [who lived after David] speaks of in Isaiah chapter 11. 'And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of fear of the LORD;'

This is the same suffering servant mentioned in Isaiah 42:1, 'Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighted; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles'.

This is the same suffering servant as mentioned in Isaiah 42:6-8. 'I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.'

This is the same suffering servant who reads Isaiah 61 as his own words. 'The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;'

This is the same servant as mentioned in Isaiah 52:13,14. 'Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astounded at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider'.

This is the same suffering servant, and shepherd, and Prophet, who is anointed King and brings in the covenant mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31-34. As Ezekiel says, 'And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it' [Ezekiel 34;23,24].

If you want references just to the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension, here are some: Isaiah 52:14; Isaiah 53; Psalm 22:14-17; Zechariah 12:10; Psalm 119:21; Exodus 12:46; Psalm 16:10; Psalm 18:18.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So there remained a double application in that a new covenant brought those in spiritual exile back into full fellowship with YHWH.

Why not triple? Could there be a quadruple?