PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Because of resurrection requirements are believed to be fulfilled - in heaven. When Jesus died and rose from the dead it was game won. When for example Bar Kokhba died it was game over.
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Duties of the Messiah (Primarily Aimed at Christians)
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
We can't prove this though.
What the Messiah is meant to do, it can be seen by regular people; that's how we know he's the Messiah.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Maybe you are right but early Christians had good reasons to believe in resurrected Christ and willing to risk their lives, change from prosecutor to propagator of Christianity.
firedragon
Veteran Member
So basically God lives in Jesus, thus Jesus is not God. Forget about Moses being called God, there are others called God too. None of those references make them all Gods. I understand that.
But you said Jesus is called Just like Moses was called God. But you say God lives in Jesus and Jesus is Gods temple. What you mean is that Jesus being called God is just another reference like Moses being called God, yet God lives in Jesus.
So basically you believe Jesus is not God. Because God lives in Jesus.
^ This is an article of faith, not fact. You are free to believe it, but misrepresenting it demonstrates either ignorance or dishonesty.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Do you think it was misrepresented?
The resurrection? Certainly no more than the earlier virgin birth or the subsequent resurrection of the saints.
PearlSeeker said “Because of resurrection requirements are believed to be fulfilled - in heaven. When Jesus died and rose from the dead it was game won.” Post # 161
Rival said : "What the Messiah is meant to do, it can be seen by regular people; that's how we know he's the Messiah." (post #162)
Hi @PearlSeeker
1) RESURRECTION ASSOCIATED WITH THE RESURRECTION OF THE MESSIAH VERSUS RESURRECTION ASSOCIATED WITH THE "END TIMES"
While I don't think you are technically incorrect to say that some of the general, “end time” resurrection “requirements” of the Messiah are to be fulfilled “in heaven”, I simply wanted to remind you that the Historical resurrection that happened at the time of the Messiahs' death was “outside of heaven” and among the people generally.
The old testament examples I gave in posts #141 and #142 refer to the resurrection that was to occur and in early messianic Judaism, the messiah was to be integral in its accomplishment. However, the historical literature describes that when resurrection of the Messiah occurred it was seen by “regular people” as was the resurrection of the other many individuals who were also resurrected at the same time as the Messiah.
The Messiah had a unique power over death other than resurrection as well. For example, when Lazarus died, Lazarus’ sister Martha said to Jesus, “I know that he [Lazarus] will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” in reference to the ancient Jewish belief in the resurrection. The Messiah replied “I am the resurrection and the life…”. This was in accordance with the ancient Judaism and their belief in the resurrection.
When Jesus himself died and then returned to life after his resurrection, the Messiah appears to Mary, then to Cephas, and later to the apostles, and later unto “more than five hundred people”, all of whom are the “regular people” Rival refers to.
This historical literature not only describes the inauguration of the resurrection at the time of the Messiahs resurrection, but, as Matt 27:52 relates, that “tombs were also opened and many bodies of the saints who had slept [died] were raised and coming out of the tombs after his arising, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.”
The ascension literature is the historical literature genre that refers to the history surrounding the resurrection of the Messiah. For example, if one of the saints who had died, had resurrected and appeared to a family member, then one would expect literature to reflect this. The ascension literature does this.
For example, the historical literature describes the Jewish Christians such as Nicodemus and other leaders who were talking about how marvelous it was that the Messiah resurrected and returned alive after his death.
Joseph of Arimathea says to them “Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)
These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon who had died, and gone to the world of Spirits (Hades) and accepted the Messiah while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world and after their resurrection
Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify : "All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)
My point is that such literature describes the resurrection of the Messiah who was seen among the “regular people” that Rival refers to (in post #162) and isn't, ONLY a phenomenon that is to occur "in heaven..".
In any case, Good luck in your own models as to what the Messiah did for the Jews and for the rest of the world.
Clear
2) One point regarding Jayhawker Soules’ rule (post #165) where misrepresentation represents “either ignorance or dishonesty” as it applies to the thousands and thousands of articles of faith the Jews believe [and believed in] in without any factual proof.
As we apply this rule to Jewish literature and beliefs, I want to say I do not think the Jewish rabbis who created Jewish religion and practice were always simply lying, nor that they were always “ignorant” in the many misrepresentations they made regarding authentic religion nor in placing their traditions as a priority over authentic Torah.
Rather I think the rabbinic Jews were often simply creating religion that was according to their personal interpretation of Torah and creating texts which, in their opinion, often best represented their personal interpretation of earlier religion.
Clear
τωφυσεφυω
Rival said : "What the Messiah is meant to do, it can be seen by regular people; that's how we know he's the Messiah." (post #162)
Hi @PearlSeeker
1) RESURRECTION ASSOCIATED WITH THE RESURRECTION OF THE MESSIAH VERSUS RESURRECTION ASSOCIATED WITH THE "END TIMES"
While I don't think you are technically incorrect to say that some of the general, “end time” resurrection “requirements” of the Messiah are to be fulfilled “in heaven”, I simply wanted to remind you that the Historical resurrection that happened at the time of the Messiahs' death was “outside of heaven” and among the people generally.
The old testament examples I gave in posts #141 and #142 refer to the resurrection that was to occur and in early messianic Judaism, the messiah was to be integral in its accomplishment. However, the historical literature describes that when resurrection of the Messiah occurred it was seen by “regular people” as was the resurrection of the other many individuals who were also resurrected at the same time as the Messiah.
The Messiah had a unique power over death other than resurrection as well. For example, when Lazarus died, Lazarus’ sister Martha said to Jesus, “I know that he [Lazarus] will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” in reference to the ancient Jewish belief in the resurrection. The Messiah replied “I am the resurrection and the life…”. This was in accordance with the ancient Judaism and their belief in the resurrection.
When Jesus himself died and then returned to life after his resurrection, the Messiah appears to Mary, then to Cephas, and later to the apostles, and later unto “more than five hundred people”, all of whom are the “regular people” Rival refers to.
This historical literature not only describes the inauguration of the resurrection at the time of the Messiahs resurrection, but, as Matt 27:52 relates, that “tombs were also opened and many bodies of the saints who had slept [died] were raised and coming out of the tombs after his arising, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.”
The ascension literature is the historical literature genre that refers to the history surrounding the resurrection of the Messiah. For example, if one of the saints who had died, had resurrected and appeared to a family member, then one would expect literature to reflect this. The ascension literature does this.
For example, the historical literature describes the Jewish Christians such as Nicodemus and other leaders who were talking about how marvelous it was that the Messiah resurrected and returned alive after his death.
Joseph of Arimathea says to them “Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)
These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon who had died, and gone to the world of Spirits (Hades) and accepted the Messiah while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world and after their resurrection
Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify : "All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)
My point is that such literature describes the resurrection of the Messiah who was seen among the “regular people” that Rival refers to (in post #162) and isn't, ONLY a phenomenon that is to occur "in heaven..".
In any case, Good luck in your own models as to what the Messiah did for the Jews and for the rest of the world.
Clear
2) One point regarding Jayhawker Soules’ rule (post #165) where misrepresentation represents “either ignorance or dishonesty” as it applies to the thousands and thousands of articles of faith the Jews believe [and believed in] in without any factual proof.
As we apply this rule to Jewish literature and beliefs, I want to say I do not think the Jewish rabbis who created Jewish religion and practice were always simply lying, nor that they were always “ignorant” in the many misrepresentations they made regarding authentic religion nor in placing their traditions as a priority over authentic Torah.
Rather I think the rabbinic Jews were often simply creating religion that was according to their personal interpretation of Torah and creating texts which, in their opinion, often best represented their personal interpretation of earlier religion.
Clear
τωφυσεφυω
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InChrist
Free4ever
How do you know they couldn’t read? Anyway, I’m not referring to only the first few disciples of Jesus. Many hundreds of the first believers were Jews. Did they all not read? Saul/Paul was a Pharisee. Certainly he could read and understood the Tanakh.
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
At some point Baha'is are going to have to touch, because they make the same types of claims Christians do... that their prophet is the Messiah.I could easily answer that from a Baha'i perspective but right now I am not touching it with a ten foot pole.
Let the Christians answer it, that should be interesting.... Given Jesus did not fulfill any of the Messianic Age prophecies, the only hope for that is if Jesus returns.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I have touched it lots of times but I was not in the mood that day and that is why I said "but right now I am not touching it with a ten foot pole."
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
It doesn't always have to be you. Baha'u'llah says he is the fulfillment of all religions, not just Judaism. It's very questionable that either Jesus or Baha'u'llah is the Jewish Messiah. Christians are trying to show how Jesus fulfilled the prophecies, but where are the Baha'is who claim that their prophet is the one who has fulfilled the prophecies Jesus didn't.I have touched it lots of times but I was not in the mood that day and that is why I said "but right now I am not touching it with a ten foot pole."
I wouldn't touch it either... but I don't know. Baha'is say they know. They say they have prophecies that Baha'u'llah fulfilled. Just like Christians say they have prophecies. Like I said, maybe not on this thread, but sooner or later Baha'is are going to have to put their supposed "fulfilled" Bible prophecies out there for Jews and Christians to see and comment on.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The fulfilled prophecies are all in the book Thief in the Night by William Sears
I have put that link out there many, many times.
Here is the issue with the prophecies that the Jews are waiting for the Messiah to fulfill. They imagine that their Messiah will fulfill all the prophecies within his lifetime, yet there is nowhere in their scriptures where the prophecies say that, so that is just an assumption on their part. Some of those prophecies were to be fulfilled by the coming if the Messiah and during his lifetime, but some of them were not going to he fulfilled until the coming of the Messianic Age.
As I was saying to The Anointed last night on the Son of man thread,
There are two classifications of Bible prophecies:
1. Prophecies that were fulfilled by the COMING of Baha'u'llah (what happened before He appeared, what happened while He was alive on earth, and what happened during the first years after he died.)
All these prophecies were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah or as the result of His coming.
2. Prophecies that will be fulfilled during the Messianic Age, which includes the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah but could extend beyond that. The Dispensation of Baha'u'llah will last no less than 1000 years (1852-2852 AD), but it could last longer. It will last until another Messenger of God appears, and that could happen any time after 2852 AD but not any sooner.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Baha'is have to do this for both Jesus and Baha'u'llah and the others in-between. What was the Messiah supposed to do? Baha'is need to show how the first Messiah was to fulfill nothing and get crucified. Then show what the next "messenger" from God, Muhammad, was supposed to do. Then show that finally Elijah, The Bab, has come before for the end times Messiah, Baha'u'llah.
Since it is difficult for Christians to show how the Bible points to Jesus as being the Messiah, I would think it near impossible for Baha'is to show Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah are all in there. Oh, and is Bill Sears infallible? I don't think so. So his book is just his opinions and interpretations.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, Sears was not infallible, but so far, I have not seen anyone step up to bat and try to refute what Sears wrote, proving he was wrong; and it is not just interpretations of Bible verses, it is what those verses actually say that can be proven to have happened on earth when Baha'u'llah came.
These verses are like puzzle pieces and they all fit together and point to Baha'u'llah.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
They haven't refuted it probably because they don't want to take the time to read his book. Here's a wide open chance to put it all out there... what are the "duties" of the Messiah as stated in the Bible, and did Baha'u'llah actually perform and accomplish those duties? So it's a little different than saying he "fulfilled" some prophecies... like that he came from the east. I think Baha'is are in just as difficult position as Christians, Jesus nor Baha'u'llah did what the Messiah to the Jews was supposed to do.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Where does the Bible state that the Messiah will have duties that He will perform and accomplish?
What the Bible says is that certain things will happen when the Messiah comes. It does not say that the Messiah will do these things Himself during His lifetime.
I will try to find some of those prophecies and post them to you. Meanwhile, what I posted to you yesterday is very pertinent. I said:
Here is the issue with the prophecies that the Jews are waiting for the Messiah to fulfill. They imagine that their Messiah will fulfill all the prophecies within his lifetime, yet there is nowhere in their scriptures where the prophecies say that, so that is just an assumption on their part. Some of those prophecies were to be fulfilled by the coming if the Messiah and during his lifetime, but some of them were not going to he fulfilled until the coming of the Messianic Age.
As I was saying to The Anointed last night on the Son of man thread,
There are two classifications of Bible prophecies:
1. Prophecies that were fulfilled by the COMING of Baha'u'llah (what happened before He appeared, what happened while He was alive on earth, and what happened during the first years after he died.)
All these prophecies were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah or as the result of His coming.
2. Prophecies that will be fulfilled during the Messianic Age, which includes the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah but could extend beyond that. The Dispensation of Baha'u'llah will last no less than 1000 years (1852-2852 AD), but it could last longer. It will last until another Messenger of God appears, and that could happen any time after 2852 AD but not any sooner.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
This is what I found at a Jewish 101 website...
The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:
- Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
- Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
- Ezekiel 38:16
- Hosea 3:4-3:5
- Micah 4
- Zephaniah 3:9
- Zechariah 14:9
- Daniel 10:14
That's not much different than what Christians say... that Jesus fulfilled some prophecies and will come back later to fulfill the rest. Then Baha'is and Christians will probably use "symbolic" fulfillment to get around things that Jews say will happen literally. Let me know when you've researched all those Bible references.
Or wait, you probably don't have the time or desire, but Baha'is have expected me to read the Dawn Breakers, the Kitab iquan, Some Answered Questions and The Thief in the Night? And what was that thing you said about a person should do their own homework? Or does that only apply to non-Baha'is?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Okay thanks. I will try to look those up tomorrow.
In a way it is similar but it is also very different. There are two ways in which it is different. First, Baha'u'llah was a real person who came and fulfilled the prophecies for the return of Christ and the coming of the Messiah, but Jesus has not come and fulfilled anything that the Bible says the return of Christ and the Messiah will do. Secondly, there is a logical explanation as to why the Messianic Age prophecies have not yet been fulfilled, since there is no reason to believe that would be (a) fulfilled by the Messiah, or (b) fulfilled within any particular time-frame.
Baha'is will not use symbolic fulfillment. These events either happened or they did not, but just because they have not happened yet, that does not mean the Baha'u'llah was not the Messiah, not unless those verses say that the Messiah will do what has not been done yet.
You jumped the gun. Wasn't it me who said I was going to look up some of these Messianic prophecies? Then you saved me the trouble by posting them. I can read them and determine of Baha'u'llah fulfilled them because I know the history of the Faith, and I can also give you my interpretation of what I believe they are saying is supposed to happen.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I mean things like "coming in the clouds" means "veils".
Good for you. But I would have believed you if you said you didn't have the time and desire... 'Cause you know it's going to open a big can of slimy worms. Oh, and there was a "dark day" today in the Bay Area. How's the smoke your way?