Duties of the Messiah (Primarily Aimed at Christians)

[Rival]

Well it's evidence that you haven't read the Tanakh...

Please don't try insulting my intelligence, thanks.

Zachariah 14 is all about the second coming of the Messiah Jesus Christ..

You are just reading that in there. These are things that the Messiah is meant to do. Things that are supposed to happen. You don't get to say 'He'll do it next time'; that's just a made up Christian doctrine to explain away the fact that Jesus could not be the Messiah because he didn't do any of these things. This passage makes no mention of a 'second coming' at all. Anyone can say 'Yeah I'm going to die, but don't worry; I'll come back and then I'll do all those things.' Harel could say it. Rosends could say it. Tumah could say it. It's completely meaningless.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Harel could say it. Rosends could say it. Tumah could say it. It's completely meaningless.

Dang -- we're having the Moshiach Race and I'm not even in the running.

 

[Harel13]

Dang -- we're having the Moshiach Race and I'm not even in the running.

Jay could say it. RabbiO could say it. Jake1001, Ehav4Ever, dantech, dybmh, etc.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Please don't try insulting my intelligence, thanks.


You are just reading that in there. These are things that the Messiah is meant to do. Things that are supposed to happen. You don't get to say 'He'll do it next time'; that's just a made up Christian doctrine to explain away the fact that Jesus could not be the Messiah because he didn't do any of these things. This passage makes no mention of a 'second coming' at all. Anyone can say 'Yeah I'm going to die, but don't worry; I'll come back and then I'll do all those things.' Harel could say it. Rosends could say it. Tumah could say it. It's completely meaningless.

It's real easy to see that the Tanakh Zachariah 14 is all about..
But then you have no Spiritual discernment that will plainly shows the second coming of Jesus Christ the Messiah.
As disciple Paul written in
1 Corinthians 2:14--"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned"

Therefore to understand the
Tanakh of Zachariah 14.
This takes Spiritual discernment.
to understand what the Spirit of God is giving.

 

[Rival]

Therefore to understand the
Tanakh of Zachariah 14.
This takes Spiritual discernment.
to understand what the Spirit of God is giving.

In other words 'This is how I feel about it,' instead of reading what the text actually says. And again, 'If only you already believed in Jesus then you'd see it.'

This isn't an argument at all.

 

[Faithofchristian]

In other words 'This is how I feel about it,' instead of reading what the text actually says. And again, 'If only you already believed in Jesus then you'd see it.'

This isn't an argument at all.

that's right it's not an argument..

Whether it be the Tanakh or the bible..
what you find in black and white this is called the letter of the word.

The spirit of the word is there...it's takes Spiritual discernment to understand what the Spirit of God is saying in the Spiritual realm.
For example in the Bible in the book of John 20:11-12.
As Mary stoop down and look into the sepulcher Mary saw two angels..
One setting at the head and one setting at the feet where the body of Jesus Christ had laid..
Now what are the two angels revealing in the way that their setting..

This will take Spiritual discernment to understand what the two angels are revealing by the way their setting.

 

[Rival]

that's right it's not an argument..

Whether it be the Tanakh or the bible..
what you find in black and white this is called the letter of the word.

The spirit of the word is there...it's takes Spiritual discernment to understand what the Spirit of God is saying in the Spiritual realm.
For example in the Bible in the book of John 20:11-12.
As Mary stoop down and look into the sepulcher Mary saw two angels..
One setting at the head and one setting at the feet where the body of Jesus Christ had laid..
Now what are the two angels revealing in the way that their setting..

This will take Spiritual discernment to understand what the two angels are revealing by the way their setting.

Yes, I take the words and their actual meanings over what I want them to say. That's how reading a book works.

 

[Eyes to See]

So psalms is referring to an individual who will be serving as a king of justice, not a priest-king. The reason I say "king of justice" is because, while Christians commonly translate the term מלכי צדק as מלכיצדק Malkitzedek, that is, as a name, in reality there's a space between the two words and translated they mean "my king (of) justice".

The name Melchizedek means: "King of righteousness."

And Melchizedek was the king and priest of Salem. Now Salem means peace. So Melchizedek, king of Salem also means: King of peace.

Salem is the same area that David founded the city of Jerusalem. And Jerusalem means possession (or foundation) of twofold peace.

Paul, speaking of this prophecy, said:

"For this Mel·chizʹe·dek, king of Saʹlem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name is translated “King of Righteousness,” and then also king of Saʹlem, that is, “King of Peace.” 3 In being fatherless, motherless, without genealogy, having neither a beginning of days nor an end of life, but being made like the Son of God, he remains a priest for all time."-Hebrews 7:13.

Since nothing is recorded in the Biblical record about Melchizedek he is left without geneology. He typified, or represented the Messiah to come. It is speculated by some that he may have been Shem, the son of Noah. In any case he was apointed by Jehovah God himself as priest. And Abram gave tithes to him. Considering this fact Paul continues:

"True, according to the Law, those of the sons of Leʹvi who receive their priestly office have a commandment to collect tithes from the people, that is, from their brothers, even though these are descendants of Abraham. 6 But this man who did not trace his genealogy from them took tithes from Abraham and blessed the one who had the promises. 7 Now it is undeniable that the lesser one is blessed by the greater. 8 And in the one case, it is men who are dying who receive tithes, but in the other case, it is someone of whom witness is given that he lives. 9 And it could be said that even Leʹvi, who receives tithes, has paid tithes through Abraham, 10 for he was still a future descendant of his forefather when Mel·chizʹe·dek met him."-Hebrews 7:5-10.

Well Paul argues it better than I can. I was using the Bible in my first post to explain how the Messiah was to be a priest. The OP totally ignored it and said that David was calling himself his own lord, even though David himself said:

"Jehovah declared to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand."

Jehovah declared to David's Lord, "Sit at my right hand." Jehovah's right hand is in heaven. David's Lord is greater than David.

The OP said Psalm 2 called David "son of God." But nowhere in scripture is David or any other human offspring of Adam called "son of God." The sons of God are angels. And Jehovah's firstborn son whom became known as Jesus Christ is in heaven sitting at God's right hand. He is David's Lord. He is also the Christ.

Again, I was using Paul's own arguments with the Hebrews with you:

"And this becomes even clearer when another priest arises who is like Mel·chizʹe·dek, 16 who has become such, not by the legal requirement that depends on fleshly descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is said in witness of him: “You are a priest forever in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.”So, then, the former commandment is set aside because it is weak and ineffective. 19 For the Law made nothing perfect, but the introduction of a better hope did, through which we are drawing near to God. 20 Also, inasmuch as this was not done without an oath being sworn 21 (for, indeed, there are men who have become priests without a sworn oath, but this one has become so through an oath sworn respecting him by the One who said: “Jehovah has sworn, and he will not change his mind, ‘You are a priest forever’”), 22 Jesus has accordingly become the guarantee of a better covenant. 23 Furthermore, many had to become priests in succession because death prevented them from continuing as such, 24 but because he continues alive forever, his priesthood has no successors. 25 So he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them."-Hebrews 7:15-25.


The reason Jesus was accorded a priesthood greater than that of Aaron is made clear when we see that even the priests themselves had to offer animal sacrifices, first for themselves, and then for the rest of the people, and many times. Yet the sacrifice of the Messiah, his perfect life blood, was given once and for all times.

"For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike those high priests, he does not need to offer up sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, because he did this once for all time when he offered himself up. 28 For the Law appoints as high priests men who have weaknesses, but the word of the oath sworn after the Law appoints a Son, who has been made perfect forever."-Hebrews 7:26-28.


Now this is the main point of what we are saying: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister of the holy place and of the true tent, which Jehovah set up, and not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, since there are already men who offer the gifts according to the Law. 5 These men are offering sacred service in a typical representation and a shadow of the heavenly things; just as Moses, when about to construct the tent, was given the divine command: For He says: “See that you make all things after their pattern that was shown to you in the mountain.” 6 But now Jesus has obtained a more excellent ministry because he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established on better promises.





That last quote is from Hebrews 8:1-6.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Yes, I take the words and their actual meanings over what I want them to say. That's how reading a book works.

Spiritual discernment is taking what is written. But in the Spiritual realm to see what the Spirit of God is in the Spiritual realm.
The spirit of God word goes a lot deeper than what's written in black and white...the letter of the word.

 

[Rival]

But in the Spiritual realm to see what the Spirit of God is in the Spiritual realm.

??

 

[Harel13]

@Eyes to See I see you completely ignored the main part of my post that explained what the root KHN כהן means and that David's sons (only a generation apart from their father) themselves were referred as such, though it's clear that they weren't considered priests.

Since nothing is recorded in the Biblical record about Melchizedek he is left without geneology. He typified, or represented the Messiah to come.

You don't actually know this. That is, you don't actually know this from the text itself. This is a much later Christian view.

9 And it could be said

Yes, it could be said. It could also not be said. Wonderful.

Again, I was using Paul's own arguments with the Hebrews with you

Why? We're discussing here Tanach without later Christian texts.

The OP totally ignored it and said that David was calling himself his own lord, even though David

If I recall, @Rival said it refers to David, not specifically that David called himself so. But what of it? Moses wrote of his own death, according to some views. Other prophets have written about themselves. Other views are that this psalm was written by one of David's ministers.

 

[BilliardsBall]

But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

Not sure I recall JtB doing this...

Just this morning, I read Matthew 23, spoken from the Southern Steps to the rabbis--seven woes--Acts says after the resurrection many of the priests followed the Christian faith...

 

[Eyes to See]

You don't actually know this. That is, you don't actually know this from the text itself. This is a much later Christian view.

Yes I do. It is in God's word.

Even Jesus reasoned with the religious leaders that hated him so much with Psalm 110:1 and they did not deny it was referring to the Messiah. Notice, once again, Jesus' use of questioning to help reason with those knuckleheads:

[I]Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them: 42 “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him: “David’s.” 43 He asked them: “How is it, then, that David under inspiration calls him Lord, saying, 44 ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet”’? 45 If, then, David calls him Lord, how is he his son?” 46 And nobody was able to say a word in reply to him, and from that day on, no one dared to question him any further.[/I]-Matthew 22:41-46.

Notice no one said, no that is talking about David. They knew this was a Messianic prophecy. And when he reasoned with them using the prophecy, they stopped trying.

Again he used this same Messianic prophecy with the people to help reason with them:

"[I]However, as Jesus continued teaching in the temple, he said: “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is David’s son? 36 By the holy spirit, David himself said, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet.”’ 37 David himself calls him Lord, so how can it be that he is his son[/I]?”-Mark 12:35-37.

It is quite plain that the Jews knew that Psalm 110:1-3 was a Messianic prophecy. They knew David wasn't talking to himself. And that is why in tradition a lot of the Hebrews knew that the Messiah would be a king and a priest.

To get down to the crux of the matter Peter explains:

"[I]For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ 36 Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake[/I].”-Acts 2:34-36.

David did not go to heaven. And he says concerning his Lord, and Christ (Messiah) under inspiration of Jehovah God : "Sit at my right hand."

"[I]But about which of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”[/I]?-Hebrews 1:13.
[I]
"But this man offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on waiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet."-[/I]Hebrews 10:12, 13.

 

[Rival]

My OP,

I would like Christians to tell me how they know what to look for in the Messiah, what he is supposed to do and so on, using only the Tanakh ('OT').

 

[Harel13]

Yes I do. It is in God's word.

Even Jesus reasoned with the religious leaders that hated him so much with Psalm 110:1 and they did not deny it was referring to the Messiah. Notice, once again, Jesus' use of questioning to help reason with those knuckleheads:

[I]Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them: 42 “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him: “David’s.” 43 He asked them: “How is it, then, that David under inspiration calls him Lord, saying, 44 ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet”’? 45 If, then, David calls him Lord, how is he his son?” 46 And nobody was able to say a word in reply to him, and from that day on, no one dared to question him any further.[/I]-Matthew 22:41-46.

Notice no one said, no that is talking about David. They knew this was a Messianic prophecy. And when he reasoned with them using the prophecy, they stopped trying.

Once again, you are falling back to a text that is both irrelevant to this thread and is irrelevant to myself. I veto any NT representation of the Pharisees because it is clearly a very twisted, subjective and, at times, anti-Jewish view.

Textual evidence for your position, in the context of this thread, and our debate, which is taking place in this specific thread, should come from the Tanach only, using logical-Tanach based reasoning, not NT-based reasoning.

 

[Clear]

Yes I do. It is in God's word.

Even Jesus reasoned with the religious leaders that hated him so much with Psalm 110:1 and they did not deny it was referring to the Messiah. Notice, once again, Jesus' use of questioning to help reason with those knuckleheads:

[I]Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them: 42 “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him: “David’s.” 43 He asked them: “How is it, then, that David under inspiration calls him Lord, saying, 44 ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet”’? 45 If, then, David calls him Lord, how is he his son?” 46 And nobody was able to say a word in reply to him, and from that day on, no one dared to question him any further.[/I]-Matthew 22:41-46.

Notice no one said, no that is talking about David. They knew this was a Messianic prophecy. And when he reasoned with them using the prophecy, they stopped trying.

Again he used this same Messianic prophecy with the people to help reason with them:

"[I]However, as Jesus continued teaching in the temple, he said: “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is David’s son? 36 By the holy spirit, David himself said, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet.”’ 37 David himself calls him Lord, so how can it be that he is his son[/I]?”-Mark 12:35-37.

It is quite plain that the Jews knew that Psalm 110:1-3 was a Messianic prophecy. They knew David wasn't talking to himself. And that is why in tradition a lot of the Hebrews knew that the Messiah would be a king and a priest.

To get down to the crux of the matter Peter explains:

"[I]For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ 36 Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake[/I].”-Acts 2:34-36.

David did not go to heaven. And he says concerning his Lord, and Christ (Messiah) under inspiration of Jehovah God : "Sit at my right hand."

"[I]But about which of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”[/I]?-Hebrews 1:13.
[I]
"But this man offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on waiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet."-[/I]Hebrews 10:12, 13.

Hi @Eyes to See

I like the fact that you are adding relevance and context TO the scriptures being referred to so that one can see why the Jews that accepted the Messiah could see in him, a fulfillment of the ancient prophecy. Such texts WERE quite relevant to the ancient Jews to whom Jesus and other early Jewish Christians were speaking and are relevant to anyone wanting to gain historical understanding of earlier texts, their usage, their meaning to the Jews that accepted the messiah, etc.

Such references and added context also can add understanding as to why the ancient Jews that rejected the messiah did not accept him. While ancient "judaism" itself was not monolithic (any more than the modern religions called "Judaism" are) and had multiple schizms, I think that the rabbinic Judaism had so many accretions to the system of beliefs they created, that the earlier texts no longer had the same meaning for them and the texts were of less priority than the traditions they had created. Thus, it was difficult to recognize in the earlier texts, the messiah when he came.

Clear
εισιδρτωω

 

[1213]

...I would like Christians to tell me how they know what to look for in the Messiah, what he is supposed to do and so on, using only the Tanakh ('OT').

I think that is good question. By what I know, the modern OT doesn’t really speak much about Messiah. I don’t think the word “Messiah” even exists in the OT. And, obviously, next word that we search is “king”, because Messiah means king of Jews. And even that doesn’t seem to be in the OT so that it would fit to the idea of coming Messiah.

I think this is probably the best scripture about Jesus in OT:

Yahweh says to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, Until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet." Yahweh will send forth the rod of your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of your enemies.
Ps.110:1-2

But, where do Jews get the idea of Messiah?

 

[Rival]

Messiah means king of Jews.

No it doesn't.

But, where do Jews get the idea of Messiah?

From various passages in the Scriptures that describe a righteous king in Israel, a time of peace and so on that will be brought about by this particular person.

 

[74x12]

I'm really not interested in 'You'll get it if you're already a Christian'. That's the whole point of this thread - I want Christians to show me messianic verses without already needing Jesus as their prior understanding since then you end up with believing he's the messiah first and then trying to find verses supporting that belief.

It's not a case of 'You just don't get it' here. It's a case of we have the verses that tell us what the Messiah is meant to do and what is meant to happen at that time and Jesus did not fit either of those things. Then the only answer we're given is 'believe in Jesus then you'll get it', which is the opposite of how this is supposed to work.

That's not what I meant at all. What I mean is that if the religious leaders of Judaism who lived in Jesus' day were really in touch with the God they claimed to serve; then they would not have needed anyone to tell them who the Messiah was. God would have let them know Himself. This is what Jesus taught.

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

So, no I'm not saying "believe in Jesus then you'll get it."

The bottom line is really what is already written in the Tanakh and hasn't changed one iota.

God says:

Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.​

A good example is the man named Simeon mentioned in Luke 2:25-26. No one told him who the Messiah was. He was just in touch with the holy Spirit.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

Hi Rival. Good afternoon.
You didn't respond to msg 119 where I pointed out Isaiah 53. The whole chapter clearly points to a suffering Messiah who would bear the sins of the people. The chapter starts off: "Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Yahweh been revealed?". The author clearly knew that the message of that chapter, that there would be a suffering Messiah first, would not be accepted by all.

They are other indications in the Hebrew Scriptures of the Messiah. The cities of refuge in the Torah point to the Messiah and his role. As you may be aware, the cities of refuge were six cities allocated to the Levite tribe in the Hebrew Scriptures that provided asylum for perpetrators of unintentional manslaughter. Divinely appointed and subject to Mosaic Law, the cities offered offenders refuge and protection from retribution of the avenging family until their case went to trial. When a situation arose where an individual unintentionally killed someone, the perpetrator was to flee to one of the six Cities of Refuge. Once arrived, they were to stand in front of the gate and plead their case to the elders of the city, who were required to admit the fugitive inside their gates and offer them asylum.

If an individual was to approach the gates of the city and demand blood justice from an offender that was being protected inside, the elders were not allowed to surrender the person in question into the avenger’s hands. The fugitive was required to live within the walls of the city until they came to trial before the gathered assembly. If the High Priest ruled in favor of the fugitive, he was allowed to continue living in the city until the death of the said priest who had acquitted him, died. After that, the offender was free to return to his own home. If the offender left the protection of the city before the death of the High Priest, then the one who sought vengeance had the right to kill him without being guilty of murder (Numbers 35:26-27).

It can be viewed that we as the sinner who is seeking protection from Yahweh’s judgment for our sins. The Torah tells us that Yahweh is an avenger (Deuteronomy 32:35). The High Priest could represent Yahshua the Messiah who accepts us temporarily to keep us protected from said judgment. When the case would go to trial and the perpetrator was found not guilty he was allowed to stay within the walls of the city. After the death of the High Priest however, the offender was free to return home.

If I may I’d like to offer an interpretation. Animal sacrifice was once instituted for people who had overstepped the boundaries of the Law. Under the blood of the perfect animal sacrifice, one could find protection and grace from Yahweh’s judgment, in the same way the fugitive was allowed to temporarily live within the city. But this was a temporary fix. After the death of the High Priest meaning Yahshua, the offender was then free from the city – the death of the High Priest exonerated the offender. Yahshua’s death freed us from our past sins.

You have to remember that these cities of refuge were allocated to the Levitical tribe therefore there is a close association between the law (specifically the animal sacrifices) and the cities of refuge.