Duties of the Messiah (Primarily Aimed at Christians)

[rosends]

Now that would make a great name for a Jewish football team.

The rabbi team in our school's intramural football league is called The Running Rebs

 

[Redemptionsong]

All you need to do is look up Jewish beliefs about the Messiah and the verses presented. I've already given them several times on this forum so I'm not going through them again. Needless to say, they can be found in the Prophets.

In Aish.com there is a concise summary of the key beliefs held by (certain) Jews.

The opening paragraph says this: 'The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides -Teshuva 9:20)'

Okay. Since this is just the topic I raised on another thread, it seems strange that Joshua is not mentioned as the greatest prophet next to Moses! So Aish.com appears to equate the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18 with the Messiah.

And how can the Messiah be the greatest prophet when he is second to Moses? Why not say that the second greatest prophet will be the Messiah? Or are we 'hedging bets'?!

Then we are given a few passages that refer to future world peace: Isaiah 2:1-4; 32:15-18; 60:15-18; Zeph.3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zech. 8:23; Jeremiah 31:33-34.

The questions that immediately spring to my mind, having looked at these passages, are 'How does this state of peace arise?' 'What conditions have Jews met, that they had failed to meet for thousands of years?' 'What changes will Jews have to make before God blesses Jews/Israel with His peace and salvation?'

If we're to believe many of our Jewish friends on this forum, they have no need to change.

This issue of repentance is highlighted in another paragraph on the Aish.com website. It says that Isaiah 53 is not about Jesus, the suffering servant, but about the Jews. In other words, the Jews, referred to in the singular, are the ones who are brought 'as a lamb to the slaughter'. The problem with this is that makes little sense to claim the Jews 'are cut off from the land of the living Through the sin of my people, who deserved the punishment' [JPS translation] And again in verse 12 it says, 'Whereas he bore the guilt of the many And made intercession for sinners'. [JPS Tanakh translation]

Put simply, if Isaiah 53 refers to the Jews and not Jesus, the Jewish people have become the sacrifice for sinners! This would make the Jews the spotless lamb.

So I ask, Rival, even as a Noahide, are you sinless and without iniquity? Can you save others by being an acceptable sacrifice?

 

[Rival]

So I ask, Rival, even as a Noahide, are you sinless and without iniquity? Can you save others by being an acceptable sacrifice?

This has nothing to do with my thread. If you want an answer to this, you need to make a new thread.

 

[halbhh]

After a discussion on another thread I've decided to make this one. There's pretty much 0 chance of this not becoming a debate so this section it is in.

I would like Christians to tell me how they know what to look for in the Messiah, what he is supposed to do and so on, using only the Tanakh ('OT').

Go!

The duties or work? Well, just from memory (having read it within the last few years) that's in Isaiah, beginning in the middle of chapter 52 (at verse 13) and primarily in chapter 53, which are better read in whole. Here's a link:
Isaiah 52 NIV
Isaiah 53 NIV

Also, perhaps the most beautiful chapter in all the Hebrew scriptures is the gospel told ahead of time in wonderful wording: Isaiah 55 NIV

 

[robocop (actually)]

I'll venture 1. In the passover Jews smeared lamb blood on their doors to be saved from creeping death. Christians think this symbolizes the lamb of God saving us from both physical and spiritual death.

 

[Eyes to See]

Since you did this with my entire post we'll just stick with this scripture.

You claim that David was a priest in the manner of Melchizedek.

The priesthood was given to the tribe of Levi. No one from the tribe of Judah is ever mentioned in the Bible as being a priest.

In fact we have the example of a king who tried to officiate as a priest and the consequence of it:

However, as soon as he was strong, his heart became haughty to his own ruin, and he acted unfaithfully against Jehovah his God by entering the temple of Jehovah to burn incense on the altar of incense.  Immediately Az·a·riʹah the priest and 80 other courageous priests of Jehovah went in after him. 18 They confronted King Uz·ziʹah and said to him: “It is not proper for you, Uz·ziʹah, to burn incense to Jehovah! It is only the priests who should burn incense, for they are the descendants of Aaron, those who have been sanctified. Go out from the sanctuary, for you have acted unfaithfully and you will receive no glory from Jehovah God for this.”- 2 Chronicles 26:16-18.


No where does any scripture refer to king David as being a priest, or the priesthood being offered to the tribe of Judah. So explain how David was a priest in the manner of Malchizedek, and when this covenant of being a priest was given him?

2 Samuel 19:11 and 20:25 show us that Zadok was serving as high priest then.

Now David wrote Psalm 110 and he referred to the Messiah as "my Lord."

Jesus even silenced the religious leaders of his day with this simple question:

"Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them: 42 “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him: “David’s.” 43 He asked them: “How is it, then, that David under inspiration calls him Lord, saying, 44 ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet”’? 45 If, then, David calls him Lord, how is he his son?” 46 And nobody was able to say a word in reply to him, and from that day on, no one dared to question him any further."-Matthew 22:41-46.

Too bad you weren't there to say that David was the priest this prophecy was referring to. And that David calls himself his own Lord here.

What type of twisted logic gets you to believe that David was a priest? Or that David is his own lord? You refute the entire Bible to say that the priesthood was not Levi's. David was the priest? And he had a priesthood greater than that of Aaron?

Which scripture gives you that idea exactly?

Please, since you just dismiss this prophecy away with, "this is David" give us a little poof of it. The statement almost betrays an extreme lack of basic knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures and the law given to Moses.

 

[74x12]

This is way too vague and could refer to pretty much anybody.

God has hidden these things from the wise and prudent but revealed them to babes as He promised to do. (Isaiah 28:9-13)

No one knows the Son but the Father and no one knows the Father but the Son and they whom the Son will reveal him to.

Yes it can mean anyone if you want to listen to dishonest people. But that is not a problem if you hear from God.

What has this to do with the Messiah?

Because as Jesus said when he came "search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life but they speak of me"

Judaism promises life by the Tanakh. 613 laws. But really it's God that always gave life and that's all the Tanakh ever really taught from the beginning. (literally in the book of Genesis) God breathed on Adam the "breath of life" and man became a living soul.

Jesus is the Word of Life sent from the Father's mouth. Words are literally formed by breath (with direction from vocal cords, tongue, lips) and so Jesus is the same breath of life sent out with specific vibration to bring about the will of God. The Word that gives life from the dead. He is the resurrection and that's why Jews don't understand the book of Isaiah because they think it's talking about Israel the "suffering servant" but they don't realize that Jesus is Israel. Jacob was head of earthly nation but Jesus is head of the heavenly Israel. And that's why there are two Jerusalems as Rabbis correctly teach which mystery is seen in the book of Isaiah. The Jerusalem of earth and the Jerusalem that is above. Jacob is dead but Jesus overcame death and so when Jacob is finally resurrected; He will be resurrected as part of the body of Christ. So who is the real head of Israel? That's why Jesus is both the root and offspring of Jesse.

So in summary you can see how Judaism gets some things right and yet misses the point.
Yes they believe in the scriptures but they don't really know the God who the scriptures talk about. Which is why God said their fear of me is taught by precept of men and they draw near with their lips but their heart is far from me. Jesus told them the same thing saying that they were like whited sepulchres because they appeared holy to other people but in their heart they were filthy "full of dead men's bones".
Yes they believe in the Resurrection but don't understand it's Jesus.
Yes they believe in Jerusalem above and Jerusalem below but they don't understand what that dichotomy really means.

So they don't understand the book of Isaiah as he predicted in Isaiah 6:8-10, Isaiah 28:9-13, Isaiah 29:10-14, and finally the rhetorical question in Isaiah 53:1.

 

[Eyes to See]

Jacob is dead but Jesus overcame death and so when Jacob is finally resurrected; He will be resurrected as part of the body of Christ.

If you don't mind, I wanted to mention something to you. I appriate your reply, and it was made up of some good wisdom from the Bible.

I just wanted to open your eyes to something you are missing. And it is in this statement that Jacob will be resurrected as part of the body of Christ.

Jacob certainly makes up part of the "large cloud of witnesses" in the Hebrew Scriptures that looked forward to the Christ and the city having real foundations (the one in heaven).

But all of these faithful men of old will not receive the fulfillment of the promises "apart from us," that is, apart from the congregation of God, the anointed Christian congregation, even as we are told in Scripture:

By faith he lived as a foreigner in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise...In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises...And yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith, did not obtain the fulfillment of the promise, 40 because God had foreseen something better for us, so that they might not be made perfect apart from us.
(Hebrews 11:9, 13, 39, 40.)

 

[74x12]

If you don't mind, I wanted to mention something to you. I appriate your reply, and it was made up of some good wisdom from the Bible.

I just wanted to open your eyes to something you are missing. And it is in this statement that Jacob will be resurrected as part of the body of Christ.

Jacob certainly makes up part of the "large cloud of witnesses" in the Hebrew Scriptures that looked forward to the Christ and the city having real foundations (the one in heaven).

But all of these faithful men of old will not receive the fulfillment of the promises "apart from us," that is, apart from the congregation of God, the anointed Christian congregation, even as we are told in Scripture:

By faith he lived as a foreigner in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise...In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises...And yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith, did not obtain the fulfillment of the promise, 40 because God had foreseen something better for us, so that they might not be made perfect apart from us.
(Hebrews 11:9, 13, 39, 40.)

Thank you for your reply. "apart" from us being the key word. So they will be made perfect with "us". So there will be one body of the redeemed. Those who died before Christ and those who die after Christ will be joined together as one body when the resurrection happens.

So they did not receive the fulfillment of the promise because Jesus had not come yet. But Jesus is the fulfillment of the promise. That's why Paul says they did not obtain the fulfillment. Not in their lifetime. But once Jesus came then they're just waiting for the resurrection of their bodies.

Jesus even said no one comes to the Father but through me. So I believe Jesus didn't come just to save those who come after Him but those who went before.

 

[InChrist]

The whole idea of a Messiah is based on Jewish texts and yet the Christian idea of a messiah does not fit what the Jews believe their own texts say at all. I am asking Christians to justify their divergent belief. Remember, there was no Christian Testament when Jesus was around. The early Christians had the Scriptures they'd always had - so how did they come to the conclusion that Jesus is the messiah while reading them?

I think it is important to note that while the Jews, in particular the religious Jews in leadership at the time of Jesus Christ, rejected Him as Messiah, ALL the first people who came to believe Jesus was the Messiah, according to their Jewish texts and His life, were Jews.

 

[Harel13]

No where does any scripture refer to king David as being a priest, or the priesthood being offered to the tribe of Judah. So explain how David was a priest in the manner of Malchizedek, and when this covenant of being a priest was given him?

Here's a suggestion:
In 2 Sam. 8:18 it says:
וּבְנָיָהוּ, בֶּן-יְהוֹיָדָע, וְהַכְּרֵתִי, וְהַפְּלֵתִי; וּבְנֵי דָוִד, כֹּהֲנִים הָיוּ.
and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada was over the Cherethites and the Pelethites; and David's sons were chief ministers.

Though the translation says that David's sons were "chief ministers", the Hebrew uses the word kohanim, which typically refers to priests.

So what's the dealio?
The similar verse in 1 Chron. 18:17 sheds light on the matter:
וּבְנָיָהוּ, בֶּן-יְהוֹיָדָע, עַל-הַכְּרֵתִי, וְהַפְּלֵתִי; וּבְנֵי-דָוִיד הָרִאשֹׁנִים, לְיַד הַמֶּלֶךְ.
and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada was over the Cherethites and the Pelethites; and the sons of David were chief about the king.

The Hebrew here is harishonim leyad hamelech. In other words, sometimes the root כהן kahen/kohen/kihen refers to someone who serves in any official role and not necessarily that of a religious priest. Indeed, all we know of Malkitzedek from the written text itself is that he was the king of Shalem and served in some sort of position to E-l elyon. We don't know in what capacity that even was.

So psalms is referring to an individual who will be serving as a king of justice, not a priest-king. The reason I say "king of justice" is because, while Christians commonly translate the term מלכי צדק as מלכיצדק Malkitzedek, that is, as a name, in reality there's a space between the two words and translated they mean "my king (of) justice".

 

[Rival]

God has hidden these things from the wise and prudent but revealed them to babes as He promised to do. (Isaiah 28:9-13)

No one knows the Son but the Father and no one knows the Father but the Son and they whom the Son will reveal him to.

Yes it can mean anyone if you want to listen to dishonest people. But that is not a problem if you hear from God.

Because as Jesus said when he came "search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life but they speak of me"

Judaism promises life by the Tanakh. 613 laws. But really it's God that always gave life and that's all the Tanakh ever really taught from the beginning. (literally in the book of Genesis) God breathed on Adam the "breath of life" and man became a living soul.

Jesus is the Word of Life sent from the Father's mouth. Words are literally formed by breath (with direction from vocal cords, tongue, lips) and so Jesus is the same breath of life sent out with specific vibration to bring about the will of God. The Word that gives life from the dead. He is the resurrection and that's why Jews don't understand the book of Isaiah because they think it's talking about Israel the "suffering servant" but they don't realize that Jesus is Israel. Jacob was head of earthly nation but Jesus is head of the heavenly Israel. And that's why there are two Jerusalems as Rabbis correctly teach which mystery is seen in the book of Isaiah. The Jerusalem of earth and the Jerusalem that is above. Jacob is dead but Jesus overcame death and so when Jacob is finally resurrected; He will be resurrected as part of the body of Christ. So who is the real head of Israel? That's why Jesus is both the root and offspring of Jesse.

So in summary you can see how Judaism gets some things right and yet misses the point.
Yes they believe in the scriptures but they don't really know the God who the scriptures talk about. Which is why God said their fear of me is taught by precept of men and they draw near with their lips but their heart is far from me. Jesus told them the same thing saying that they were like whited sepulchres because they appeared holy to other people but in their heart they were filthy "full of dead men's bones".
Yes they believe in the Resurrection but don't understand it's Jesus.
Yes they believe in Jerusalem above and Jerusalem below but they don't understand what that dichotomy really means.

So they don't understand the book of Isaiah as he predicted in Isaiah 6:8-10, Isaiah 28:9-13, Isaiah 29:10-14, and finally the rhetorical question in Isaiah 53:1.

I'm really not interested in 'You'll get it if you're already a Christian'. That's the whole point of this thread - I want Christians to show me messianic verses without already needing Jesus as their prior understanding since then you end up with believing he's the messiah first and then trying to find verses supporting that belief.

It's not a case of 'You just don't get it' here. It's a case of we have the verses that tell us what the Messiah is meant to do and what is meant to happen at that time and Jesus did not fit either of those things. Then the only answer we're given is 'believe in Jesus then you'll get it', which is the opposite of how this is supposed to work.

I think it is important to note that while the Jews, in particular the religious Jews in leadership at the time of Jesus Christ, rejected Him as Messiah, ALL the first people who came to believe Jesus was the Messiah, according to their Jewish texts and His life, were Jews.

Yes. Unlearned Jews from the Gallillee who couldn't even read. That doesn't really help your case.

 

[Harel13]

I think it is important to note that while the Jews, in particular the religious Jews in leadership at the time of Jesus Christ, rejected Him as Messiah, ALL the first people who came to believe Jesus was the Messiah, according to their Jewish texts and His life, were Jews.

And?

 

[Faithofchristian]

I think what your asking for is.
How to know the Messiah second coming to earth.
The Messiah of course is the Lord Jesus Christ.

In the Tanakh Zachariah 14.
Here we find the second coming of Jesus Christ the Messiah..

If I'm not wrong..I think your referring to the second coming of Christ Jesus...the Messiah.
In the Tanakh in the book of Zachariah 14.
Here we find Jesus Christ the Messiah, will ascend back on the mount of O'lives at his second coming.

Tanakh Zachariah 14:4--"And on that day His feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem from the east. And the Mount of Olives shall split in the midst thereof-toward the east and toward the west-a very great valley. And half the mountain shall move to the north, and half of it to the south"

In Jerusalem there is the temple wall which the Jews call the wailing Wall.
Which will come down at the presence of Jesus Christ the Messiah ascending back on top of mount of O'lives..

This is one key to know Jesus Christ the Messiah has come in his second coming to earth in Jerusalem mount of O'lives.

Tanakh Zachariah 14:9--"And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one"

This being Jesus Christ the Messiah,
Shall come as King of kings over the whole earth,

On that day...this being the day of the second coming of Jesus Christ the Messiah.
and on that day shall the Lord be one.
King of kings over the whole Earth.
And his name one..The word of God.
the Messiah over the whole earth.

Tanaka Zachariah 14:12--"And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the nations who besieged Jerusalem; his flesh will waste away while he still stands on his feet; his eyes will waste away in their sockets, and his tongue shall waste away in his mouth"

This being when all the nations of the world come up against the new Jerusalem that has come down from heaven from God..

At this time all the wicked of all nations comes up against Jerusalem and Jesus Christ the Messiah.. destroys them while their standing on their feet all their body of flesh returns to dust while they are still standing.

Their eyes will dissolve in their sockets.
Their tongues shall dissolve right in their mouths.

Tanaka Zachariah 14:13--"And it will come to pass on that day that there will be great consternation, sent by the Lord upon them; each one shall seize the hand of the other, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of the other"

The day being the second coming of Jesus Christ the Messiah..
And on this day of the second coming of Jesus Christ the Messiah.

Notice the word above in Zachariah.
( Consternation ) the meaning of this is
( Feelings of anxiety or dismay, typically at something unexpected )

This being the nations of the world were caught off guard of Jesus Christ the Messiah second coming to earth.
The nations of the world will try to over take Jerusalem..but Jesus Christ the Messiah.. destroying them all.

I believe that you got the picture how the Tanakh supports Jesus Christ the Messiah...in his second coming to earth.

 

[Rival]

I think what your asking for is.
How to know the Messiah second coming to earth.
The Messiah of course is the Lord Jesus Christ.

In the Tanakh Zachariah 14.
Here we find the second coming of Jesus Christ the Messiah..

If I'm not wrong..I think your referring to the second coming of Christ Jesus...the Messiah.
In the Tanakh in the book of Zachariah 14.
Here we find Jesus Christ the Messiah, will ascend back on the mount of O'lives at his second coming.

Tanakh Zachariah 14:4--"And on that day His feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem from the east. And the Mount of Olives shall split in the midst thereof-toward the east and toward the west-a very great valley. And half the mountain shall move to the north, and half of it to the south"

In Jerusalem there is the temple wall which the Jews call the wailing Wall.
Which will come down at the presence of Jesus Christ the Messiah ascending back on top of mount of O'lives..

This is one key to know Jesus Christ the Messiah has come in his second coming to earth in Jerusalem mount of O'lives.

Tanakh Zachariah 14:9--"And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one"

This being Jesus Christ the Messiah,
Shall come as King of kings over the whole earth,

On that day...this being the day of the second coming of Jesus Christ the Messiah.
and on that day shall the Lord be one.
King of kings over the whole Earth.
And his name one..The word of God.
the Messiah over the whole earth.

Tanaka Zachariah 14:12--"And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the nations who besieged Jerusalem; his flesh will waste away while he still stands on his feet; his eyes will waste away in their sockets, and his tongue shall waste away in his mouth"

This being when all the nations of the world come up against the new Jerusalem that has come down from heaven from God..

At this time all the wicked of all nations comes up against Jerusalem and Jesus Christ the Messiah.. destroys them while their standing on their feet all their body of flesh returns to dust while they are still standing.

Their eyes will dissolve in their sockets.
Their tongues shall dissolve right in their mouths.

Tanaka Zachariah 14:13--"And it will come to pass on that day that there will be great consternation, sent by the Lord upon them; each one shall seize the hand of the other, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of the other"

The day being the second coming of Jesus Christ the Messiah..
And on this day of the second coming of Jesus Christ the Messiah.

Notice the word above in Zachariah.
( Consternation ) the meaning of this is
( Feelings of anxiety or dismay, typically at something unexpected )

This being the nations of the world were caught off guard of Jesus Christ the Messiah second coming to earth.
The nations of the world will try to over take Jerusalem..but Jesus Christ the Messiah.. destroying them all.

I believe that you got the picture how the Tanakh supports Jesus Christ the Messiah...in his second coming to earth.

There's no 'Second Coming' in the Tanakh; that's a roundabout Christian way of admitting Jesus didn't fulfil the prophecies. It's a cop-out.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

After a discussion on another thread I've decided to make this one. There's pretty much 0 chance of this not becoming a debate so this section it is in.

I would like Christians to tell me how they know what to look for in the Messiah, what he is supposed to do and so on, using only the Tanakh ('OT').

Go!

Hey @Rival, hope you’re staying safe, my cousin.

In answering this, it requires an explanation as to why the Messiah came (would come)....what roles would He serve in fulfilling God’s purpose.

First, if I may ask you some questions.....

Do you accept that the Bible’s first prophecy, Genesis 3:15 (given right after A & E’s rebellion), is regarding the Messiah as the ‘woman’s Seed’?

How do you view God’s promise to Abraham @ Genesis 22:18, being fulfilled? By whom would “all nations....bless themselves”? And how?

And lastly, @ Isaiah 33:24, how do ‘residents not getting sick’, tie in with them being “pardoned from their error”?
(I mean, God pardoned / forgave His people Israel many times in Scripture, but they all eventually got sick & died again.)

 

[Rival]

In answering this, it requires an explanation as to why the Messiah came (would come)....what roles would He serve in fulfilling God’s purpose.

I will get around to answering your questions if you want, but this is exactly what I'm asking Christians.

How do you know? Without any preconceptions, you sit and read the Jewish Scriptures - would you see any indication of such a figure and if so, in what verses and what will he do according to those verses?

 

[rosends]

The people who followed Shabbtai Tzvi were Jews. They found what they were looking for in relevant texts. Muhammed insisted that Jews should follow him because he found what he was looking for in the relevant texts. If you look in with the need to find, you find. Those who don't have that need don't see what you see. Deciding that a particular verse or phrase has an unnamed pronoun, and therefore can be interpreted to refer to someone who says "if you look in there, you will find me" is not going to persuade anyone because another person can say "same pronoun, but I see a different reference because I'm looking for something else."

Those who don't know enough to evaluate on their own or who are looking for a simple answer which doesn't require thought or which solves problems quickly would be influenced by an agendized reading.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

After a discussion on another thread I've decided to make this one. There's pretty much 0 chance of this not becoming a debate so this section it is in.

I would like Christians to tell me how they know what to look for in the Messiah, what he is supposed to do and so on, using only the Tanakh ('OT').

Go!

Hi Rival. Good afternoon. I saw this thread yesterday but with so little time on the internet I haven't had the chance to respond. Even today I only have a couple of minutes but I will try to respond when I can later in the week. I think Ken has showed some scriptures that indicate the Messiah in the Hebrew Scriptures. How do you explain away Isaiah 53?

To me, that is clear evidence that the Messiah would be a suffering Messiah first and sin bearer before a ruling Messiah.

But I will revisit this thread when I have time.

 

[Faithofchristian]

There's no 'Second Coming' in the Tanakh; that's a roundabout Christian way of admitting Jesus didn't fulfil the prophecies. It's a cop-out.

Well it's evidence that you haven't read the Tanakh of Zachariah 14 is all about the second coming of the Messiah Jesus Christ..