Earth Not By Chance

[FFH]

Someone reading this thread might want to check out this for further evidences that this earth was not made by chance. It has a divine creator who formed it out of eternal existing matter.

The earth is 13,000 years old and it is soon to be renewed when Christ comes (

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[yossarian22]

The earth, and everyhing living on it, is made of dense formed matter, which has always existed, in one form or another.

Yes. As energy or matter.

An example of this is water, it has always existed in one form or another,

Not if you define water by its properties.

you cannot permanently destroy or permanently create more water than already exists on this planet.

Sure you can.
Break the water up with electrolysis. Force the hydrogen atoms to fuse, or force the oxygen atom to undergo fission

 

[camanintx]

So the sun, just by chance, is 400 times the size of the moon, and the sun, by chance, is 400 times farther away from us than the moon, which, by chance, creates a scenerio, whereby the moon perfectly eclipses the sun every X number of years, by chance.

Given the mass and relative velocities of the Earth, Moon and Sun, gravity tells us that it has to be this way. There is no chance or design involved. Before you can argue that the odds of this happening are beyond reason, you would have to explain how it could have been any different.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I beleive all refined matter (that which we cannot see with our natural eyes) and all dense matter (that which we can observe with our natural eyes) has always existed.

The evidence strongly suggests that the early universe did not contain oxygen, carbon, and the other heavy elements from the beginning ( Big Bang nucleosynthesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ). Those elements are produced by stars and dispersed through stellar explosions ( Stellar nucleosynthesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ).

 

[SoyLeche]

The evidence strongly suggests that the early universe did not contain oxygen, carbon, and the other heavy elements from the beginning ( Big Bang nucleosynthesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ). Those elements are produced by stars and dispersed through stellar explosions ( Stellar nucleosynthesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ).

Yeah - I'm thinking that FFH really needs to revamp his theory. Whatever it is that makes up the components of oxygen, carbon, etc (or even that makes up protons, neutrons, quarks - I'm not sure how far down it goes... maybe they even "make up" photons, for all I know) has always existed and cannot be destroyed. Water has not always existed - and it can be destroyed (unorganized and then reorganized into something else).

 

[Valjean]

Things are as they are because this is the only way they can be given existing physical laws. There is no need to posit some omnipotent personage to magically and selectively violate His own laws to account for the universe as it is.

Divine magic is not a more reasonable explanation for order and complexity than existing physics or chemistry.

 

[McBell]

So the sun, just by chance, is 400 times the size of the moon, and the sun, by chance, is 400 times farther away from us than the moon, which, by chance, creates a scenerio, whereby the moon perfectly eclipses the sun every X number of years, by chance.

To believe the earth is a product of chance, is far more unbelievable than believing in an omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing) God.

I know God lives and I know he formed the earth. It's not a belief, I know it, I usually don't say it that boldly, but I really do know he lives, because of certain experiences I've had.

I can say I know God formed the earth without any reservations or doubts.

Belief and faith are only the beginning, which eventually becomes a pure knowledge...

I know God (Christ) formed the earth. It's not a matter of belief with me.

So you're right, belief is a weak word to use...

I know God formed the earth, no one can prove this to anyone else, only God can do this in his own way, for each individual. I can only testify and put forth as many evidences as possible.

Seems your whole argument is based upon your belief of "by chance."
A premise you have not shown to be even evidenced, let alone the 'fact' you attempt to present it as.

 

[Valjean]

Yes. As energy or matter.
Not if you define water by its properties.
Sure you can.
Break the water up with electrolysis. Force the hydrogen atoms to fuse, or force the oxygen atom to undergo fission

Good points, Yossarian.
Water is a simple and easily formed/broken molecule. It's constantly being formed and cracked.
A kangaroo rat never takes a drink in its life. Its physiology creates water directly from the seeds it eats.
Every time you see lightening, you see HOH being both formed and cracked.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Have you ever bought an expensive toy for a six month old child and watch him have more fun with the box than the toy?

That explains why my kids' room is always dirty.....

 

[McBell]

Have you ever bought an expensive toy for a six month old child and watch him have more fun with the box than the toy?

Six month?
Heck, my five year old still prefers the box sometimes.

 

[FFH]

An example of this is water, it has always existed in one form or another,

Not if you define water by its properties.

Okay then can we destroy or create hyrdrogen or oxygen ???

you cannot permanently destroy or permanently create more water than already exists on this planet.

Sure you can.
Break the water up with electrolysis. Force the hydrogen atoms to fuse, or force the oxygen atom to undergo fission

Wouldn't it fair to say that the hydrogen or oxygen atoms would eventually seperate ???

Law of Entropy

Under our current conditions, given time and energy, the same amount of hydrogen and oxygen will combine again and form the same amount of water that existed before.

We cannot permanently change the amount of water found on this planet.

I'm only using this as an example. I probably should have used another example to illustrate my point.

For instance, we cannot create or destroy matter and neither can God, he can only form existing eternal matter.

If someone disagrees, then can God create something from nothing ???

 

[FFH]

The evidence strongly suggests that the early universe did not contain oxygen, carbon, and the other heavy elements from the beginning ( Big Bang nucleosynthesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ). Those elements are produced by stars and dispersed through stellar explosions ( Stellar nucleosynthesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ).

All this tells me is that what was lacking in our universe, in the beginning, to complete our earth's formation, existed somewhere else in infinite space.

God used eternal (no beginning/no ending) existing matter, from eternal (no beginning/no ending) existing infinite space, to create this earth.

God, ourselves, all living things and all other non living matter has always existed in one form or another, God only formed our spirit and natural bodies, this earth, the universe, etc.

 

[logician]

As far as earth not by chance goes, it does seem that we hit the evolutionary lottery so to speak, when "intellegent" homo sapeins evolved on earth. As S J Gould explained so well in the book Wonderful Life, it took many lucky rolls of the dice for us to come along, as many things could have happene to upset the applecart and we would never have evolved. Roll the tape of life again, and a different outcome would be just as likely.

The fact that we have as yet not detected intelligent life elsewhere could mean that evolution of intelligent life is a rare occurence, or that communicating one's existence to aliens elsewhere is not an easy thing to do. Detecting intelligent life anywhere else would be THE biggest and most important discovery ever made in our history.

 

[yossarian22]

Okay then can we destroy or create hyrdrogen or oxygen ???

Sure. Its just very impractical in terms of energy.
Hydrogen can be "destroyed" in the extent that it can be fused into helium (difficult unless you are dealing with deuterium, which is still fairly abundant in hydrogen containing compounds) or it can be introduced to some anti-matter where it turns into pure energy.

Wouldn't it fair to say that the hydrogen or oxygen atoms would eventually seperate ???

What are you asking?
A water molecule will eventually break up. Water is constantly breaking up into OH- (hydroxide) and H3O+(hydronium), which then combine into H20 again.

Law of Entropy
Under our current conditions, given time and energy, the same amount of hydrogen and oxygen will combine again and form the same amount of water that existed before.

The law of entropy refers to randomness, not water.

We cannot permanently change the amount of water found on this planet.

The fusion bomb destroys this idea. Deuterium, made from heavy water, was turned into helium.

 

[SoyLeche]

Okay then can we destroy or create hyrdrogen or oxygen ???

Yes. Maybe not me personally, but someone or something can create or destroy hydrogen and oxygen.

I'm telling ya - you're going to have to go into subatomic particles to get to where you are trying to go, and probably further into subatomic particles than we currently know about.

 

[silvermoon383]

Hydrogen and Oxygen can most certainly be both created and destroyed.

For the creation of hydrogen you need a set of quarks- 2 up and 1 down. When combined these 3 form a proton. Add in an electron and you get Hydrogen.

Oxygen is created by nuclear fusion in stars. Hydrogen fuses into Helium which fuses into heavier elements such as Carbon, Oxygen, and so forth.

The destruction of Oxygen is a type of nuclear fission, and protons are broken up in particle accelerators all the time.

Hydrogen and Oxygen were subsequently spread throughout the universe by supernovas. After a star blows, its materials will end up in another celestial body, such as Sol (our sun) and planets (like Earth)

 

[FFH]

Yes. Maybe not me personally, but someone or something can create or destroy hydrogen and oxygen.

I'm telling ya - you're going to have to go into subatomic particles to get to where you are trying to go, and probably further into subatomic particles than we currently know about.

Okay, so lets suppose we go there, can we permanently "destroy" or "create" the smallest of particles, or are we only temporarily changing or splitting atoms for example.

The Bible states that water existed above the earth, in the "firmament" (heavens), then it was "divided," and water was placed on the earth.

Nowhere does it state that water was created from nothing, it was obviously formed from hydrogen and oxygen, of course, or from smaller particles, or did it always exist in it's current form in space.

Also Adam was "formed" with the dust (matter) of the earth. Also you will recall the phrase, "here is matter unorganized".

That phrase keeps repeating itself in my mind, and we as LDS know where we have heard this statement.

God organized existing eternal matter and "formed" the earth, it was not created from nothing.

Can we permanently destroy or create the smallest of particles or elements of the earth ??? I'd say the answer is no.

We may be able to temporarily split them or combine them, but they will eventually return to their original state.

 

[yossarian22]

Okay, so lets suppose we go there, can we permanently "destroy" or "create" the smallest of particles, or are we only temporarily changing or splitting atoms for example.

Yes, assuming a closed system

 

[FFH]

Yes, assuming a closed system

Okay, fair enough, but outside that closed system they will always return to their original state, given enough time and the natural free energies that exist in our universe.

Also we cannot create something from nothing, neither can we destroy existing particles or elements of this earth. We can only alter their states temporarily, outside a closed system.

Fait enough ???

God is bound to these laws as well.

 

[yossarian22]

Okay, fair enough, but outside that closed system they will always return to their original state, given enough time and the natural free energies that exist in our universe.

Also we cannot create anything from nothing, neither can we destroy it, we can only alter it's state temporarily, outside a closed system.

Eh, when I said closed system
I meant that that barring some human interaction
Helium will never become water naturally: at least not by any observed reactions.
We cannot permanently change anythings form. It will degrade into energy according to current theories.