Economists admit that tax cuts for the rich fail to trickle down

[Revoltingest]

Anyone living in America has experience with capitalism, either as a predator or a victim.

You left out the most important relationship, ie, symbiosis.
Pure & you sure do have a depressing weltanschauung.

 

[Stevicus]

You left out the most important relationship, ie, symbiosis.
Pure & you sure do have a depressing weltanschauung.

Well, it's not that bad. Just telling it like it is.

At least we're not as bad as those who build bomb shelters and tunnels underneath their homes in preparation for Armageddon. Or those who fear terror plots to the point where we practically have to get strip searched in order to travel. That's pretty depressing.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, it's not that bad. Just telling it like it is.

Still, your view is really depressing....unless
you're one of the predators.

At least we're not as bad as those who build bomb shelters and tunnels underneath their homes in preparation for Armageddon. Or those who fear terror plots to the point where we practically have to get strip searched in order to travel. That's pretty depressing.

Those attitudes relate to governance rather than economics.
Other than the times when someone tries to fleece me (an
uncommon thing), my relationships are all mutually benficial,
ie, symbiotic. I recommend trying that relationship instead.

 

[Stevicus]

Still, your view is really depressing....unless
you're one of the predators.

No, I'm not a predator, except for when I go after the Roadrunner. But the capitalists over at ACME - they're predators.

Those attitudes relate to governance rather than economics.

Still can be just as depressing.

Other than the times when someone tries to fleece me (an
uncommon thing), my relationships are all mutually benficial,
ie, symbiotic. I recommend trying that relationship instead.

Thank you for your suggestion.

 

[Revoltingest]

Thank you for your suggestion.

I could train you to be a groundskeeper.
People who need that service pay for it.
Both parties win.

BTW, I once repossessed a couple dozen hostas.
The customer didn't pay.

 

[Stevicus]

I could train you to be a groundskeeper.
People who need that service pay for it.
Both parties win.

BTW, I once repossessed a couple dozen hostas.
The customer didn't pay.

There are quite a few groundskeepers around here. It's a necessary trade, although the desert plant life is pretty thorny. I have to wear gloves in order to keep my hands smooth and young-looking.

 

[Heyo]

You left out the most important relationship, ie, symbiosis.
Pure & you sure do have a depressing weltanschauung.

Kettle, meet pot.
Aren't you the one who said Americans are too stupid to overthrow the oligarchy?

 

[Heyo]

In essence, the bleeding-heart liberals and the social justice warriors actually saved capitalism. If not for them, the hard-hearted conservatives and corporate button men would have had no buffer between them and the masses, who would have eventually overthrown them.

Yep. Social security and social justice are insurances against revolutions. The only question for the plutocrats is what the optimal premium is. In the US they are currently try to squeeze it to that optimum.

 

[Revoltingest]

Kettle, meet pot.

Hardly.
They believe that capitalism is either predator or prey,
ie, one party kills & eats the other in order to survive.
As part of the system, they're either one or the other.
So...
They're either killers preying on victims (something
they decry), or they're victims just waiting to die.
Both are dismal states of mind.

My view is much more peaceful & fun, ie, whether
I'm customer or vendor, all my relationships are
voluntary & mutually beneficial.
Example....
I'm planning on going full solar on one last property.
Diversified Roofing will prep one building for the panels.
Homeland Solar will install the system. I'll get my free
electricity. They'll get money. DTE will see lessened
power demand during peak usage. No one is coerced.
Everyone wins. Carbon footprints are reduced.
This is how capitalism works.

Aren't you the one who said Americans are too stupid to overthrow the oligarchy?

I am not.
If you disagree, please find the post, & we can discuss it.

 

[Stevicus]

Yep. Social security and social justice are insurances against revolutions. The only question for the plutocrats is what the optimal premium is. In the US they are currently try to squeeze it to that optimum.

Yes, that's what seems to be what is driving the business and political leadership in this country. It's not enough for them to simply have enough.

 

[Stevicus]

Hardly.
They believe that capitalism is either predator or prey,
ie, one party kills & eats the other in order to survive.
As part of the system, they are one or the other.
So...
They're either killers preying on victims, or
they're victims just waiting to die.

The only correction I would make here is in regards to killing. The relationship between capitalists and their prey is more parasitic, which doesn't necessarily involve killing or death (except maybe a slow death).

 

[Revoltingest]

The only correction I would make here is in regards to killing. The relationship between capitalists and their prey is more parasitic, which doesn't necessarily involve killing or death (except maybe a slow death).

Yet another dismal weltanschauung.
No matter how satisfying it might be to feel victimhood,
I recommend trying symbiosis...you'd be happier.
It's more satisfying.

 

[Stevicus]

Yet another dismal weltanschauung.
No matter how satisfying it might be to feel victimhood,
I recommend trying symbiosis...you'd be happier.
It's more satisfying.

I suppose if I wanted to stick my head in the sand and care only about myself and my own well-being, I'd probably be happier and have a far less "dismal weltanschauung." But I do care about others and the future of America as a whole. I can't help that; it's part of my nature.

That may illustrate the key difference between capitalists and socialists. Socialists care about the entire nation and all the people, whereas capitalists only care about a few privileged people at the top, while expressing wanton indifference towards everyone else (if not outright scorn and derision). Even when capitalists and conservatives offer proposals which they claim will be "good for the economy," most of the time, they're wrong. What they really mean is that their proposals will only be good for themselves, not for the collective whole.

 

[Revoltingest]

I suppose if I wanted to stick my head in the sand and care only about myself and my own well-being, I'd probably be happier and have a far less "dismal weltanschauung." But I do care about others and the future of America as a whole. I can't help that; it's part of my nature.

I recommend rising out of the sand.
See that capitalism is about symbiosis,
not your version of tapeworms, foxes,
& chickens.
My version is more like sunfishes &
cleaner wrasses...mutual benefit.

That may illustrate the key difference between capitalists and socialists. Socialists care about the entire nation and all the people, whereas capitalists only care about a few privileged people at the top, while expressing wanton indifference towards everyone else (if not outright scorn and derision). Even when capitalists and conservatives offer proposals which they claim will be "good for the economy," most of the time, they're wrong. What they really mean is that their proposals will only be good for themselves, not for the collective whole.

Socialism isn't defined by caring....just the people (ie, government)
owning the means of production. If caring about people were
really the goal, then socialism fails even worse than does capitalism,
If socialists really cared about their fellow man, they'd prefer the
superior results of capitalism, which provides the greater economic
productivity to fuel social programs.

 

[Stevicus]

I recommend rising out of the sand.
See that capitalism is about symbiosis,
not your version of tapeworms, foxes,
& chickens.
My version is more like sunfishes &
cleaner wrasses...mutual benefit.

Well, even if we set aside possible causes (whether through predation or symbiosis), what I do see is a tremendous imbalance within society. I see some people living in palatial mansions and the lap of luxury - with more money than they can possibly spend in their lifetimes, while I see others sitting on the side of the road, homeless and carrying a sign, begging for money so they can eat another day.

Some people struggle to make ends meet and pay for basic necessities, such as food, housing, utilities. Some have to work two or three jobs, because their obscenely wealthy employers claim that they "can't afford" to pay any more. Then when it comes to purchasing the necessities of life, they see rising costs because the obscenely wealthy businesses claim they "can't afford" to charge any less.

Socialism isn't defined by caring....just the people (ie, government)
owning the means of production. If caring about people were
really the goal, then socialism fails even worse than does capitalism,
If socialists really cared about their fellow man, they'd prefer the
superior results of capitalism, which provides the greater economic
productivity to fuel social programs.

Socialism cares about fairness and equality, which implies caring about the people as a whole.

"Superior results" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, even if we set aside possible causes (whether through predation or symbiosis), what I do see is a tremendous imbalance within society. I see some people living in palatial mansions and the lap of luxury - with more money than they can possibly spend in their lifetimes, while I see others sitting on the side of the road, homeless and carrying a sign, begging for money so they can eat another day.

Some people struggle to make ends meet and pay for basic necessities, such as food, housing, utilities. Some have to work two or three jobs, because their obscenely wealthy employers claim that they "can't afford" to pay any more. Then when it comes to purchasing the necessities of life, they see rising costs because the obscenely wealthy businesses claim they "can't afford" to charge any less.





Socialism cares about fairness and equality, which implies caring about the people as a whole.

"Superior results" is in the eye of the beholder.

The problem of imbalance would be better served by
helping the poor, rather than adopting socialism.
IOW, don't escape the frying pan by jumping into the fire.

 

[Peter Griffin]

I really like where this conversation has headed. Just a thought, might either system work if the values of humans were adjusted to "play fair"? Maybe the best solution is a hybrid of the two, using socialism where appropriate and capitalism everywhere else? I believe everyone loves their social security checks and their Medicare health benefits. Maybe there should be a socialist approach to items that are necessary, like food, housing, transportation, health care, education, etc? Then maybe some parameters placed where needed. For example, I have found that capitalism works great for small to medium sized businesses. Once businesses are allowed to become to large, competition is lost. Large companies buy out innovative, competitive ideas all the time, just to shelve or gut them. So maybe we greatly limit a companies ability to acquisition, if a company grows it grows organically, because of innovation and intelligence. That is an example of what benefits consumers. I could write pages, but hopefully the ideas are conveyed.

 

[Kooky]

Some, not extensively. Enough to be skeptical.
So where did Marx go to school for capitalism? What experience did he have running a company or being a worker? What I have read seems intellectual ivory tower stuff. Doesn't seem to have a lot of personal experience with capitalism. He seems mostly interested in putting communism on a pedestal.

Of course it is intellectual ivory tower stuff. Marx was a philosopher. That's why you learn about Marx thesis at universities, not at business schools. It's like the difference between a scientist and an engineer. The first is more theoretical, abstract and the second is more practical.

Marx's companion, Friedrich Engels, was a German businessman whose family owned a factory in Manchester.
Engels also did social research into the English working class.

Friedrich Engels (/ˈɛŋ(ɡ)əlz/ ENG-(g)əlz,[2][3][4] German: [ˈfʁiːdʁɪç ˈʔɛŋl̩s]), sometimes anglicised as Frederick Engels (28 November 1820 – 5 August 1895), was a German philosopher, historian, political scientist and revolutionary socialist. He was also a businessman, journalist and political activist, whose father was an owner of large textile factories in Salford (Greater Manchester, England) and Barmen, Prussia (now Wuppertal, Germany).[5]

Engels developed what is now known as Marxism together with Karl Marx. In 1845, he published The Condition of the Working Class in England, based on personal observations and research in English cities. In 1848, Engels co-authored The Communist Manifesto with Marx and also authored and co-authored (primarily with Marx) many other works. Later, Engels supported Marx financially, allowing him to do research and write Das Kapital.

Friedrich Engels - Wikipedia

While observing the slums of Manchester in close detail, Engels took notes of its horrors, notably child labour, the despoiled environment, and overworked and impoverished labourers.[30] He sent a trilogy of articles to Marx. These were published in the Rheinische Zeitung and then in the Deutsch–Französische Jahrbücher, chronicling the conditions among the working class in Manchester. He later collected these articles for his influential first book, The Condition of the Working Class in England (1845).[31] Written between September 1844 and March 1845, the book was published in German in 1845. In the book, Engels described the "grim future of capitalism and the industrial age",[30] noting the details of the squalor in which the working people lived.[32] The book was published in English in 1887. Archival resources contemporary to Engels's stay in Manchester shed light on some of the conditions he describes, including a manuscript (MMM/10/1) held by special collections at the University of Manchester. This recounts cases seen in the Manchester Royal Infirmary, where industrial accidents dominated and which resonate with Engels's comments on the disfigured persons seen walking round Manchester as a result of such accidents.

Friedrich Engels - Wikipedia

 

[Kooky]

The problem of imbalance would be better served by
helping the poor, rather than adopting socialism.
IOW, don't escape the frying pan by jumping into the fire.

How would you help the poor?

 

[Revoltingest]

How would you help the poor?

A few things I favor....
- The UBI replacing most social programs.
- Eliminate income tax below a certain threshold.
- Reduce regulatory barriers to entry of some professions,
eg, licensing required for hair braiding.
- Single payer health care.
- Reform the bail system.
- Alter the education system to teach more trade skills.