Economists admit that tax cuts for the rich fail to trickle down

[Audie]

Actually, rising from poverty is extremely difficult, regardless of how desirous and hard-working an individual is. Much depends upon opportunities that simply don’t exist for a child/yound adult raised in the many difficulties prevalent in the niches of poverty.

Most poor people truly, truly want and are willing to work. Hard. For a better life.

That is obvious.

.
Lots of things depend on lots of things.
I get lucky, maybe too much so for my own good.
Others never catch a break.

I sent our maid back home to the Philippines
with a bonus big enough for her to start a business, which has been a good success.

She get lucky, others in her position are abused and then cheated.

 

[Audie]

Of course. So have I.

Luckily what research that does exist, shows that overall, unemployment rates do NOT rise with the minumum wage.
The foundations of capitalism (e.g. Supply and Demand) immediately reveal the whole trickle-down and “supply-side” economic bubble-makers for what they really are....bubble-makers.
They were always short-term fixes, that were never meant to hold water for more than a few months, before they should have returned to normal market levels, with the return to less income disparity.

The US however, utterly ignored the economists’ of the the last 4 decades, as they warned (even along with Ronald Reagan’s own warnings), that tax cuts for the rich must be halted in order for the economy and the nation’s infrastructure to heal. “Conservative” policy unfortunately, has commanded the US economy for the last 50 years, which has directly and undeniably dug the grave that we now find ourselves in.

The political division that exists here is significant indeed, but it is not between two responsible groups weighing possible solutions. Instead, it is between realists (usually termed “liberals” in the press) and naive and deluded children (formerly known as “conservatives”, although now they are the extreme opposite of that nomenclature) living in their own self-inflicted (economic and fact-free) bubble.

Time for the children to wake up and take a bath. Return taxes to 1960-1970 norms, and lift the working class back onto their feet with real wages, and at least a decade of gov’t-paid-for, on-the-job training for 21st century careers.
When they are working and earning where they should be, the US economy can spend a decade or two returning to a leadership position in the world.

Tax in Hong Kong has worked very well to
build the city to what it is.

As for raising min wage, its been calibrated
with some success to not cause unemployment.

Raise it too high, that's another matter.

 

[Nakosis]

You haven't read Marx, have you?

Some, not extensively. Enough to be skeptical.
So where did Marx go to school for capitalism? What experience did he have running a company or being a worker? What I have read seems intellectual ivory tower stuff. Doesn't seem to have a lot of personal experience with capitalism. He seems mostly interested in putting communism on a pedestal.

... everywhere - yet.

Ok, which communist country would you like to move to?

 

[Nakosis]

There have been plenty of revolutions over the past 150 years - not all of which were communist or Marx-inspired, but some of them were. I think that the West was able to avoid revolution because some of its leadership was progressive enough to realize that unrestrained capitalism can lead to problems. However, they did favor reforms to moderate capitalism and restrain it to some degree.

"How capitalism works" can vary depending upon whatever political system is present. "How capitalism works" and "how politics works" are two peas in the same pod.

Sure, but I think this further illustrates where Marx was wrong about capitalism.

 

[PureX]

Yes. Renters should be incensed that home
ownership is directly subsidized, but renting is not.
But those were just a couple examples culled from
the many. Employees should be concerned with
regressive rates of payroll taxes. The poor should
be concerned with loss of benefits upon earning
wages which are reduced by heavy income taxes.

All those complexities are how the system gets rigged to exploit those who are not in the power/control loop in favor of those who are. And how those who are, get away with it. Blaming the victims for not understanding the complexities that are intended to keep them in the dark and vulnerable is a bit disingenuous, don't you think? You can hire lawyers and tax specialists to tell you how the rigged system works, but they can't. And they shouldn't have to.

 

[Revoltingest]

All those complexities are how the system gets rigged to exploit those who are not in the power/control loop in favor of those who are. And how those who are, get away with it. Blaming the victims for not understanding the complexities that are intended to keep them in the dark and vulnerable is a bit disingenuous, don't you think? You can hire lawyers and tax specialists to tell you how the rigged system works, but they can't. And they shouldn't have to.

The voice of experience, eh.

 

[Altfish]

Why is that " as opposed to"?

Grief, you are hard work, picking over every word.

It was a discussion on the thread title.

 

[Audie]

Grief, you are hard work, picking over every word.

It was a discussion on the thread title.

Sorryah, its my nature and training.

 

[Audie]

All those complexities are how the system gets rigged to exploit those who are not in the power/control loop in favor of those who are. And how those who are, get away with it. Blaming the victims for not understanding the complexities that are intended to keep them in the dark and vulnerable is a bit disingenuous, don't you think? You can hire lawyers and tax specialists to tell you how the rigged system works, but they can't. And they shouldn't have to.

And yet not clever enough to rig a election

 

[Heyo]

Some, not extensively. Enough to be skeptical.
So where did Marx go to school for capitalism? What experience did he have running a company or being a worker? What I have read seems intellectual ivory tower stuff. Doesn't seem to have a lot of personal experience with capitalism. He seems mostly interested in putting communism on a pedestal.



Ok, which communist country would you like to move to?

Of course it is intellectual ivory tower stuff. Marx was a philosopher. That's why you learn about Marx thesis at universities, not at business schools. It's like the difference between a scientist and an engineer. The first is more theoretical, abstract and the second is more practical.

 

[Audie]

Of course it is intellectual ivory tower stuff. Marx was a philosopher. That's why you learn about Marx thesis at universities, not at business schools. It's like the difference between a scientist and an engineer. The first is more theoretical, abstract and the second is more practical.

Practical philosophy. What a concept.

 

[Stevicus]

Do you know why marijuana isn't going to be legalized federally (or in any other country)? All the stated reasons have been debunked but the real reason isn't even known to most people. There is the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs - Wikipedia. An international treaty nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole.
In politics nothing is monocausal but there are often causes that aren't stated.

I seem to remember reading about this a while back, although you're right. This treaty is not generally mentioned whenever there is a debate over controlled substances and their legality. What the public usually gets is the latest variation of "Reefer Madness" and the standard War on Drugs propaganda.

Of course, nations can always withdraw from a treaty if they wish, but it does seem rather strange in this day and age that no one would want to touch it or revisit this treaty. At least when it comes to marijuana.

 

[Stevicus]

.
Lots of things depend on lots of things.

Can I quote you on that?

 

[Stevicus]

Tax in Hong Kong has worked very well to
build the city to what it is.

As for raising min wage, its been calibrated
with some success to not cause unemployment.

Raise it too high, that's another matter.

Were the taxes high back when Hong Kong was under the British? I've heard that taxes in Britain have always been pretty high ("there's one for you, nineteen for me"), and of course, taxes were part of the reason we Americans broke off from the British Empire.

 

[Stevicus]

Some, not extensively. Enough to be skeptical.
So where did Marx go to school for capitalism? What experience did he have running a company or being a worker? What I have read seems intellectual ivory tower stuff. Doesn't seem to have a lot of personal experience with capitalism. He seems mostly interested in putting communism on a pedestal.



Ok, which communist country would you like to move to?

Does anyone go to school for capitalism? Which school offers a degree in capitalism?

 

[Stevicus]

Sure, but I think this further illustrates where Marx was wrong about capitalism.

For what capitalism was at the time he wrote about it, he was probably correct. What he may not have anticipated was the labor movement and growth of unionization, most of which occurred after Marx's death. Plus, Western politicians (such as T. Roosevelt and Wilson) were supporters of better wages and social programs for the disadvantaged (e.g. Wilson's New Freedom platform). FDR implemented even more expansive policies. If such policies had been implemented in pre-revolutionary Russia, revolution probably could have been avoided.

In essence, the bleeding-heart liberals and the social justice warriors actually saved capitalism. If not for them, the hard-hearted conservatives and corporate button men would have had no buffer between them and the masses, who would have eventually overthrown them.

 

[Stevicus]

The voice of experience, eh.

Anyone living in America has experience with capitalism, either as a predator or a victim. I think @PureX was suggesting that one shouldn't blame the victims of capitalism for their plight, since it's not their fault.

 

[Nakosis]

Does anyone go to school for capitalism? Which school offers a degree in capitalism?

Now they have Capitalism Studies courses available in some colleges. No idea how long it's been available though.

150 years ago I don't think it was well understood by anyone. Just including Marx in that. I suspect Marx held an ideological view of capitalism. I'm more practical orientated. I suspect this might be why I have trouble relating to Marx.

 

[Nakosis]

For what capitalism was at the time he wrote about it, he was probably correct. What he may not have anticipated was the labor movement and growth of unionization, most of which occurred after Marx's death. Plus, Western politicians (such as T. Roosevelt and Wilson) were supporters of better wages and social programs for the disadvantaged (e.g. Wilson's New Freedom platform). FDR implemented even more expansive policies. If such policies had been implemented in pre-revolutionary Russia, revolution probably could have been avoided.

In essence, the bleeding-heart liberals and the social justice warriors actually saved capitalism. If not for them, the hard-hearted conservatives and corporate button men would have had no buffer between them and the masses, who would have eventually overthrown them.

Fair enough. I see this as part of the flexibility of Capitalism.

 

[Stevicus]

And yet not clever enough to rig a election

Hard to say. If an election was successfully rigged, would anyone know about it? People might suspect it was rigged, but with recent events, we've seen what happens when people express their suspicions out loud.