Economists admit that tax cuts for the rich fail to trickle down

[Audie]

Spoiler: The secret

Fiat currency

Funny way to spell Zimbabwe

 

[Revoltingest]

Funny way to spell Zimbabwe

It's more dysfunctional in some countries.

 

[Stevicus]

I really don't think Marx had a good understanding of how capitalism worked.

He viewed it historically as a class struggle. There is no ruling class in capitalism. Also, he focused only on the economic forces which is a very simplistic view IMO. The is much more to the wealth-gap than economic forces. There is culture, technology, education that influences personal wealth as well. Finally his prediction that class struggle would inevitably lead to revolution, socialism then communism. This has not happened.

There have been plenty of revolutions over the past 150 years - not all of which were communist or Marx-inspired, but some of them were. I think that the West was able to avoid revolution because some of its leadership was progressive enough to realize that unrestrained capitalism can lead to problems. However, they did favor reforms to moderate capitalism and restrain it to some degree.

"How capitalism works" can vary depending upon whatever political system is present. "How capitalism works" and "how politics works" are two peas in the same pod.

 

[Stevicus]

Those who can't throw a ball don't get 40 million dollar NFL
contract.


Kind of depends how high under
what circumstances.

The usa did so well in those days
because they were the last man
standing after WW2.

You about couldn't kill an economy like that.

Well, it was still quite a turnaround, economically speaking. US industries had to greatly expand their output during the war. When FDR took office, the US was in the throes of the Depression. People were living in tenements and Hoovervilles. When FDR died, the US was on the verge of victory in WW2, close to conducting its first nuclear test, and having an enormously powerful economy and industrial base which made the good life possible in America. We've always had capitalism in the US, so that was nothing new, but for the first time in US history, more and more people were elevated above the misery and squalor which was the USA prior to Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Plus, we had an enormously large military at that point, and we were essentially on top of the world. We had an enormous advantage. FDR was quite shrewd in more ways than one.

One could say that FDR saved capitalism, even if he had to use quasi-socialistic policies in order to do it (such as wage/price controls).

As far as what may have caused a deterioration of the economy (not killed yet), I would attribute the deep fear of communism/socialism that gripped the country for decades, at times getting so intense that it led to periods we call "Red Scares" in our history. It led to our involvement in numerous countries all across the planet, which cost quite a bit of money. We also continued with having a large military and a rather large nuclear arsenal, which was also expensive.

Another major downturn happened when the cost of energy skyrocketed in the 70s. That should have been an early lesson in the perils of outsourcing in search of cheap labor. While the US excelled in oil production for decades, the oil companies decided it was cheaper to import it from overseas, which is what they did. All it did was make certain nations of the Middle East richer, more powerful, more dangerous, and more belligerent. Think of how much international turmoil and economic upheaval we could have avoided.

I would say the US had a pretty decent economic foundation and workable system, but I believe that some of our leadership may have gotten too cocksure and believed that "America could do no wrong." A lot of Americans still believe that. So, they gambled it all away, thinking they would somehow double their money on the world market. Instead, America has wound up in deep debt and sorely lagging behind the rest of the developed world.

Now, America has been profoundly capitalist in a mostly capitalist world for quite some time now, so the one group you can never ever blame for America's woes is...socialists.

 

[Heyo]

I really don't think Marx had a good understanding of how capitalism worked.

You haven't read Marx, have you?

He viewed it historically as a class struggle. There is no ruling class in capitalism. Also, he focused only on the economic forces which is a very simplistic view IMO. The is much more to the wealth-gap than economic forces. There is culture, technology, education that influences personal wealth as well. Finally his prediction that class struggle would inevitably lead to revolution, socialism then communism. This has not happened.

... everywhere - yet.

 

[Heyo]

It probably wasn't news to economists, although getting the policymakers to actually believe it - that's another story.

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

― Upton Sinclair

 

[Heyo]

Well, fiscally irresponsible behavior does scare away
lenders...or cause them to demand higher returns.

Or cause them to demand payment in a currency that the debtor doesn't control.
The $ as the reserve currency has been challenged multiple times. By Iran in the late 1970s, Iraq in the early 2000s and Libya in 2010. They proposed to sell their oil for Marks or Euros. The US was successful in convincing them to drop those plans but it wasn't cheap. May have been worth it though.

 

[Altfish]

Raising it. How much? How can you figure
out how much?

If someone is on £10/hour they spend every penny of it.
If you give them £11 they will spend the extra just as quick

 

[Revoltingest]

Or cause them to demand payment in a currency that the debtor doesn't control.
The $ as the reserve currency has been challenged multiple times. By Iran in the late 1970s, Iraq in the early 2000s and Libya in 2010. They proposed to sell their oil for Marks or Euros. The US was successful in convincing them to drop those plans but it wasn't cheap. May have been worth it though.

Regarding debt, unless the lender has a contractual right
to convert the debt into some other currency, they're stuck
with dollars. Ameristan would never agree to anything but $.

 

[Audie]

If someone is on £10/hour they spend every penny of it.
If you give them £11 they will spend the extra just as quick

Of course. Most blow their lottery win
as fast as they can.

 

[Audie]

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

― Upton Sinclair

Or his religion!

 

[Altfish]

Of course. Most blow their lottery win
as fast as they can.

...And the rest they spend on cigarettes and beer

 

[Audie]

...And the rest they spend on cigarettes and beer

It is so that many are poor because they have no sense.

But thats not really the thing with
raising minimum wage, which has
here been just presented as a vague
feel - good sound bite, no specifics at
all.

 

[Altfish]

It is so that many are poor because they have no sense.

But thats not really the thing with
raising minimum wage, which has
here been just presented as a vague
feel - good sound bite, no specifics at
all.

And what about their children of the poor; should they be punished too?

In the UK, it gets raised like state pensions approximately in line with inflation; but occasionally when a sympathetic government is in power they go up beyond inflation.

 

[Audie]

And what about their children of the poor; should they be punished too?

In the UK, it gets raised like state pensions approximately in line with inflation; but occasionally when a sympathetic government is in power they go up beyond inflation.

Penalized? Thats nowhere in what
I said.
It it is essential that the least among us
be protected and nurtured.
The questions about how includes
how much is minimum pay.
Its a complex problem with no easy
answers.

 

[Altfish]

Penalized? Thats nowhere in what
I said.
It it is essential that the least among us
be protected and nurtured.
The questions about how includes
how much is minimum pay.
Its a complex problem with no easy
answers.

So, I think you are agreeing that a minimum pay is good. All you are arguing about is the level?

 

[Audie]

So, I think you are agreeing that a minimum pay is good. All you are arguing about is the level?

Not even arguing.
Its needed, mostly just pointing out
its so useless to just say "raise it".

 

[ElishaElijah]

The way our current government operates is tax and spend to the deficit amount of approximately -5 Billion a day. Printing money, headed toward bankruptcy. God is our only hope because only He can create something from nothing, bring order and sanity back to the US.

 

[Audie]

The way our current government operates is tax and spend to the deficit amount of approximately -5 Billion a day. Printing money, headed toward bankruptcy. God is our only hope because only He can create something from nothing, bring order and sanity back to the US.

Sorry to hear that coz it ain't gonna happen.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Sorry to hear that coz it ain't gonna happen.

He has done this for us the last 20 years.