Education of women in Islam

[Wasp]

I’m talking about both at once

It sounds like you're insinuating there are gay marriages in Islam.

 

[danieldemol]

It sounds like you're insinuating there are gay marriages in Islam.

More correct would be to say there is support for gay marriages in *liberal* Islam

 

[Wasp]

More correct would be to say there is support for gay marriages in *liberal* Islam

Certainly it is *more* correct, but don't you think I know that? Just because I oppose a view doesn't mean I think people who don't oppose, don't exist.

But I hesitate to say those people practice Islam in general. I don't have a problem with gay people in mosques, but to change the entire Qur'an into something it's not because it's inconvenient to a small group of people is wrong. And it won't lead to anything but to watering down of the religion in those places.

 

[Notanumber]

Certainly it is *more* correct, but don't you think I know that? Just because I oppose a view doesn't mean I think people who don't oppose, don't exist.

But I hesitate to say those people practice Islam in general. I don't have a problem with gay people in mosques, but to change the entire Qur'an into something it's not because it's inconvenient to a small group of people is wrong. And it won't lead to anything but to watering down of the religion in those places.

The watering down of Islam would be a step in the right direction.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well, I suppose one can make a case that the world has gotten better in some ways, worse in other ways. I think there has also been progress in the Islamic world, although it seems all the radicals and crazies are getting all the attention.


Whether the world is getting better or worse might be more of a relative statement, depending on one's point of view. Others might look back over the past couple of centuries and see noticeable progress during that time, but could possibly discern a slowing of progress or reaching a plateau in more recent decades. It's not that the world is viewed as getting "worse," but if progress slows to a snail's pace and is not as fast as one has been used to or expects, then one might see it as the same as getting worse.

There might be others who see all this progress and advancement as a precarious house of cards which could come crashing down easily if a few key things fall out of place. For example, a temporary interruption of energy supplies - whether it's fuel for vehicles or electricity - can almost instantaneously create chaos. Likewise, people are generally aware of the risks of a nuclear meltdown or a war involving weapons of mass destruction. So, there may be progress, but there's also greater risk, which can lead to greater worry.

Of course, education can also bring hope, and I favor programs which would allow everyone free and open access to public education and higher learning. But there are some drawbacks. For one, the more educated a person is, the more they might realize how much they don't know. Those in poorer countries might realize how much they don't have, as they learn more and more about what the wealthier countries have. Countries with a history of being exploited might gain greater awareness of that fact, and this can lead to resentment and animosity which may not have existed if people remained in "ignorant bliss."

If you check out the life expectancy rates world wide over the last 250 years there has been a dramatic increase.

Life expectancy globally and by world regions since 1770

Life Expectancy

The current WHO estimate of worldwide life expectancy is 72 years.

Life expectancy

In regards levels of education there has been a major increase in the levels of literacy world wide. As of 2016 an estimated %86 of the world's population were considered literate.

Literate and illiterate world population

Since 1970 the share of the world's population with no formal education is decreasingly rapidly.

Share of the population with no formal education, projections by IIASA

The mean number of years of schooling per country world wide in 2017 is impressive, even for poorer countries.

Mean years of schooling

Gender gaps for attendance at schools is narrowing even for Islamic and African counties.

Gender ratios for mean years of schooling

Global conflict is in decline too.

https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/...great-powers-fought-one-another-1500–2000.png

I agree with many of the points you raise and humanity has great challenges ahead. However its important to acknowledge our achievements and appreciate the social changes and dynamics that have led to this seismic shift in world affairs.

 

[Wasp]

The watering down of Islam would be a step in the right direction.

Dream on.

 

[Dawnofhope]

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

In a June 25, 2016 interview with the liberal Arab website Elaph, Dr. Najat Al-Sa'eed, a Saudi communications lecturer at Zayed University in Dubai, said that Islam is the only monotheistic religion that has not adapted to the modern age, and that this was not the fault of Islam but rather of Muslims, who are conservative. Hence, she said, the process of modernization must begin with the religion itself, by reforming the rituals of worship. For example, she suggested changing the internal layout of mosques so as to allow men and women to pray together, introducing codes of proper conduct and appearance in mosques, and installing seats and dim lighting that will create an atmosphere of spirituality and calm, like in a church.

Saudi Academic: It's Time To End Gender Segregation In Mosques; Let's Make Mosques Similar To Churches!

 

[Wasp]

In a June 25, 2016 interview with the liberal Arab website Elaph, Dr. Najat Al-Sa'eed, a Saudi communications lecturer at Zayed University in Dubai, said that Islam is the only monotheistic religion that has not adapted to the modern age, and that this was not the fault of Islam but rather of Muslims, who are conservative. Hence, she said, the process of modernization must begin with the religion itself, by reforming the rituals of worship. For example, she suggested changing the internal layout of mosques so as to allow men and women to pray together, introducing codes of proper conduct and appearance in mosques, and installing seats and dim lighting that will create an atmosphere of spirituality and calm, like in a church.

Saudi Academic: It's Time To End Gender Segregation In Mosques; Let's Make Mosques Similar To Churches!

That's ignorant.

I can only find the article in memri and breitbart, the "academic" doesn't appear to be a Muslim at all, studied in UK, and has written questionable articles before.

Lucky for the world no one seems to know who she is.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That's ignorant.

I can only find the article in memri and breitbart, the "academic" doesn't appear to be a Muslim at all, studied in UK, and has written questionable articles before.

Lucky for the world no one seems to know who she is.

She is an assistant professor of Zayed University that has campuses in Dubai and Abu Dhabi.

Zayed University - Wikipedia

Najat AlSaied, Assistant Professor
Najat AlSaied has more than 16 years of experience in development organisations and digital media. She worked at Islamic Development Bank (IDB) in Jeddah-Saudi Arabia, World Health Organisation-Pan American Health Organisation (PAHO) in Washington DC-USA, Housing and Urban Development (HUD) in Washington DC-USA.

AlSaied also has experience in women's empowerment issues though working in the Saudi Research and Publishing Company (SRPC) in Dubai Media City as an Editor in Chief for women's e-magazine. The e-magazine covers different women's topics from women's rights, education, art, health, etc. Her latest book was published in 2015: Screens of Influence: Arab Satellite Television & Social Development case studies in poverty, literacy and violence in underprivileged Saudi women.

AlSaied holds two Master Degrees in Health Promotion Disease Prevention and Computer Information System from American University in Washington DC. She earned a PhD in media studies at University of Westminster in 2013. The title of the thesis: Development Initiatives in Programming on Privately-Owned Arab Satellite Television and their Reception among Disadvantaged Saudi Women.

She joined Zayed University August, 17, 2014 as an Assistant Professor in the College of Communication & Media Sciences.

Najat AlSaied, Assistant Professor

 

[Notanumber]

She is an assistant professor of Zayed University that has campuses in Dubai and Abu Dhabi.

Zayed University - Wikipedia

Najat AlSaied, Assistant Professor
Najat AlSaied has more than 16 years of experience in development organisations and digital media. She worked at Islamic Development Bank (IDB) in Jeddah-Saudi Arabia, World Health Organisation-Pan American Health Organisation (PAHO) in Washington DC-USA, Housing and Urban Development (HUD) in Washington DC-USA.

AlSaied also has experience in women's empowerment issues though working in the Saudi Research and Publishing Company (SRPC) in Dubai Media City as an Editor in Chief for women's e-magazine. The e-magazine covers different women's topics from women's rights, education, art, health, etc. Her latest book was published in 2015: Screens of Influence: Arab Satellite Television & Social Development case studies in poverty, literacy and violence in underprivileged Saudi women.

AlSaied holds two Master Degrees in Health Promotion Disease Prevention and Computer Information System from American University in Washington DC. She earned a PhD in media studies at University of Westminster in 2013. The title of the thesis: Development Initiatives in Programming on Privately-Owned Arab Satellite Television and their Reception among Disadvantaged Saudi Women.

She joined Zayed University August, 17, 2014 as an Assistant Professor in the College of Communication & Media Sciences.

Najat AlSaied, Assistant Professor

She seems reasonable but I wonder what Cat Stevens thinks of her and if she has been on the receiving end of a Fatwa.

 

[Dawnofhope]

She seems reasonable but I wonder what Cat Stevens thinks of her and if she has been on the receiving end of a Fatwa.

I wasn't aware a fatwa had been decreed.

Do you have a link?

 

[Darkforbid]

That's ignorant.

I can only find the article in memri and breitbart, the "academic" doesn't appear to be a Muslim at all, studied in UK, and has written questionable articles before.

Lucky for the world no one seems to know who she is.

Try this for counter-arguments

The Fallacy of Gender Equality in The Bahai Faith - The Bahai Awareness Homepage

 

[Mock Turtle]

I've been reading a book titled:

'Factfulness: Ten Reasons We're Wrong About the World--and Why Things Are Better Than You Think'

Written by Anna Rosling Rönnlund, Hans Rosling, and Ola Rosling

Factfulness: Ten Reasons We're Wrong About the World – and Why Things Are Better Than You Think - Wikipedia

The book highlights how enormous progress has been made worldwide in regards life expectancy, economic progress and levels of education worldwide. There has been a dramatic shift worldwide in stadards of living attributed in no small measure to better access to health and education.

In the Western world such as much of North America, Europe and the Antipodes there is little doubt about the overall levels of prosperity and well being of populations, with similar trends throughout much of Asia, South America and even in the Middle East. Even Africa has made remarkable progress.

So I was wondering about education of women being even more important in some instances than men as women are often the first educators of children and have an enormous influence on their children as role models.

How about the education of women throughout the Islamic world. How is that progressing?

In a 2013 statement, the Organization of Islamic Cooperation noted that restricted access to education is among the challenges faced by girls and women in the developing world, including OIC member states.[56] UNICEF notes that out of 24 nations with less than 60% female primary enrollment rates, 17 were Islamic nations; more than half the adult population is illiterate in several Islamic countries, and the proportion reaches 70% among Muslim women.[57] UNESCO estimates that the literacy rate among adult women was about 50% or less in a number of Muslim-majority countries, including Morocco, Yemen, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Niger, Mali, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, and Chad.[58] Egypt had a women literacy rate of 64% in 2010, Iraq of 71% and Indonesia of 90%.[58] While literacy has been improving in Saudi Arabia since the 1970s, the overall female literacy rate in 2005 was 50%, compared to male literacy of 72%.[59]

Some scholars[60][61] contend that Islamic nations have the world's highest gender gap in education. The 2012 World Economic Forum annual gender gap study finds the 17 out of 18 worst performing nations, out of a total of 135 nations, are the following members of Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC): Algeria, Jordan, Lebanon, (Nepal[62]), Turkey, Oman, Egypt, Iran, Mali, Morocco, Côte d'Ivoire, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Chad, Pakistan and Yemen.[63]


In contrast, UNESCO notes that at 37% the share of female researchers in Arab states compares well with other regions.[65] In Turkey, the proportion of female university researchers is slightly higher (36%) than the average for the 27-member European Union as of 2012 (33%).[66] In Iran, women account for over 60% of university students.[67] Similarly, in Malaysia,[68] Algeria,[69] and in Saudi Arabia,[70] the majority of university students have been female in recent years, while in 2016 Emirati women constituted 76.8% of people enrolled at universities in the United Arab Emirates.[71] At the University of Jordan, which is Jordan's largest and oldest university, 65% of students were female in 2013.[72]

In a number of OIC member states, the ratio of women to men in tertiary education is exceptionally high. Qatar leads the world in this respect, having 6.66 females in higher education for every male as of 2015.[73] Other Muslim-majority states with notably more women university students than men include Kuwait, where 41% of females attend university compared with 18% of males;[73] Bahrain, where the ratio of women to men in tertiary education is 2.18:1;[73] Brunei Darussalam, where 33% of women enroll at university vis à vis 18% of men;[73] Tunisia, which has a women to men ratio of 1.62 in higher education; and Kyrgyzstan, where the equivalent ratio is 1.61.[73] Additionally, in Kazakhstan, there were 115 female students for every 100 male students in tertiary education in 1999; according to the World Bank, this ratio had increased to 144:100 by 2008.[74]

However, in the United States, a recent study done by the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding found that Muslim American women (73%) are more likely than Muslim American men (57%) to achieve higher education (post-high school education or higher).

Women in Islam - Wikipedia

So while education of women is progressing very well in some Islamic countries, there is relatively poor performance in others.

In this thread I'd like to explore what aspects of Islam today positively promote education and how might the culture within the Islamic world inhibits progress.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

The book is well worth reading. And he makes a good case for world population levelling off rather than ever increasing - circumstances doing a bit of negative feedback it seems. But the level might be a bit high for comfort - if we carry on as we are doing.

 

[Darkforbid]

The book is well worth reading. And he makes a good case for world population levelling off rather than ever increasing - circumstances doing a bit of negative feedback it seems. But the level might be a bit high for comfort - if we carry on as we are doing.

'projections. Under the assumption that the current global fertility rate of 2.5 will continue to decline and reach replacement level (2.1) by 2070, the United Nations projects the world'spopulation at 11.2 billion by the then.'

 

[Dawnofhope]

The book is well worth reading. And he makes a good case for world population levelling off rather than ever increasing - circumstances doing a bit of negative feedback it seems. But the level might be a bit high for comfort - if we carry on as we are doing.

According to projections are from the official United Nations forecast where the population growth will level off and we will be at about 11 billion by 2100. To the authors credit they highlight the increasing problems for the environment including greenhouse gases. These are problems that can be solved with international cooperation and collective will.

World population projected to reach 9.8 billion in 2050, and 11.2 billion in 2100 | UN DESA | United Nations Department of Economic and Social Affairs

 

[Dawnofhope]

Try this for counter-arguments

The Fallacy of Gender Equality in The Bahai Faith - The Bahai Awareness Homepage

A Muslim website for the propogation and dissemination of misinformation about the Baha'i Faith.

Why we need BahaiAwareness - The Bahai Awareness Homepage

Despite all the faults, perceived or otherwise about the Baha'i Faith, a comparison between the Baha'i Faith and Islam in regards equality of men and woman will look much worse for Islam than the Baha'i faith for any objective observer.

 

[Wasp]

A Muslim website for the propogation and dissemination of misinformation about the Baha'i Faith.

Why we need BahaiAwareness - The Bahai Awareness Homepage

Despite all the faults, perceived or otherwise about the Baha'i Faith, a comparison between the Baha'i Faith and Islam in regards equality of men and woman will look much worse for Islam than the Baha'i faith for any objective observer.

I imagine you are the objective observer.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I imagine you are the objective observer.

Not me, only Muslims can be objective....

"Objective" povs

 

[Stevicus]

If you check out the life expectancy rates world wide over the last 250 years there has been a dramatic increase.

Life expectancy globally and by world regions since 1770

Life Expectancy

The current WHO estimate of worldwide life expectancy is 72 years.

Life expectancy

In regards levels of education there has been a major increase in the levels of literacy world wide. As of 2016 an estimated %86 of the world's population were considered literate.

Literate and illiterate world population

Since 1970 the share of the world's population with no formal education is decreasingly rapidly.

Share of the population with no formal education, projections by IIASA

The mean number of years of schooling per country world wide in 2017 is impressive, even for poorer countries.

Mean years of schooling

Gender gaps for attendance at schools is narrowing even for Islamic and African counties.

Gender ratios for mean years of schooling

Global conflict is in decline too.

https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/08/ourworldindata_percentage-of-years-in-which-the-great-powers-fought-one-another-1500–2000.png

I agree with many of the points you raise and humanity has great challenges ahead. However its important to acknowledge our achievements and appreciate the social changes and dynamics that have led to this seismic shift in world affairs.

This is all good information, although I think some of it also relies upon perception of the rate of advancement, especially over the past 25-50 years.

Just as an example, the recent 50th anniversary of the Moon Landing. I was just a little kid back then, but it was a time when one might have had high hopes for the future. One might have expected an eventual mission to Mars and future missions to Jupiter and beyond - even before the turn of the century. That never happened, which might contribute to the perception that humanity is not progressing, but standing still.

One might compare time frames and see enormous progress and advancement from 1940 to 1980, while discerning a slowing of progress or stagnation from 1980 to the present. The perception is that we may have peaked at some point in the 1960s/70s, while seeing a steady decline in the years since then.

So, even if we're doing enormously better than we were 250 years ago, people might also measure progress by what they've seen in their own lifetimes. To be sure, in the developing world, a great deal of progress has been noted (as you've cited here), such as in the areas of healthcare, life expectancy, and education.

But all this really means is that the West has slowed progress while the rest of the world catches up. Not that that's a bad thing, but it does contribute to the perception that the West is standing still.

So, while it's good that there's greater progress in education for women in Islamic countries, from the West's point of view, it doesn't seem to add anything. It doesn't translate to a cure for cancer or warp drive technology.

As for war, that's another tricky point to make. 200 years ago, military technology was more primitive, so a thousand wars back then wouldn't add up to a hill of beans compared to just one war today. So, the point about "fewer wars" today doesn't really say much. In the nuclear era, we've had to deal with numerous instances of brinkmanship, which causes people to worry more about war than they otherwise would have in earlier eras in history.

 

[Mock Turtle]

'projections. Under the assumption that the current global fertility rate of 2.5 will continue to decline and reach replacement level (2.1) by 2070, the United Nations projects the world'spopulation at 11.2 billion by the then.'

True that there are some variables that might change, and education/wealth levels might not be as predicted so as to cause birth rates to fall. And a population of 10 or 12 billion might not be sustainable anyway if we all expect the highest standards of living that many enjoy now. How many would give up some of what they currently have to enable those poorer to benefit?