Egyptian and Jewish exodus what proof?

[Riders]

I'm gonna read Exodus and come back and reply to this last comment.Ill be fair.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Because you guys have been asking what is the great moral lesson from this story, obviously there isn't any. I don't see any good in the Exodus story.

Where did I ask such a thing? @Riders, childishly making things up is a poor substitute for thinking.

Roger1440 did and I said it in reply to this.

I have nothing whatsoever to do with @roger1440. There is no "you guys".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

[QUOTE="Riders, post: 5187257, member: 58299"I personally think you got in the middle of this to mess the conversation up.[/QUOTE]
Don't be too concerned. You're doing a fine job all by yourself.

 

[sayak83]

Seriously, what, in your opinion, is the value of this type of polemic?

The value is to the person the polemic is addressed to. Different Christians and different Jews have vastly different conceptions of God even though all of them base it on the same story. Your conception of God is different from Rogers, and my reply is directed as his ideas and not yours. His response suggested to me that
a) He believes these stories literally happened as told.
b) Whatever God does in these stories is justified by fiat. If God kills, it's not murder, by definition.

This creates a God of might is right and the polemic attacks this formulation.

Even if the stories are nonliteral, it does appear that ancient Jews and Christians believed them as is. So the question arises, how flawed is the conception of God these people had if they came from stories where God does these things?

 

[roger1440]

Does Passover Celebrate the Death of Innocent Egyptians? | HuffPost

 

[sayak83]

Does Passover Celebrate the Death of Innocent Egyptians? | HuffPost

Fictional story lines made centuries later to make up for the embarrassment of a God conjured up in less civilized times? That's all you got?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So the question arises, how flawed is the conception of God these people had if they came from stories where God does these things?

The Gods of the time were capricious hyper-human and in competition with one another. This is in marked contrast to the YHWH of the ancient Hebrews which dictated ethical living as understood at that time. But the view faltered when seeking to deal with the problem of evil. If YHWH was the ultimate source and in ultimate control, then all current politics and all past [folk] history required theological explanation. So, for example, folk flood narratives - perhaps reflecting various Nile and Mesopotamian events - would eventually be conflated. For the followers of YHWH, at issue was not IF there was a catastrophic flood but, rather, WHY there was a catastrophic flood. In the new narrative, it was not the result of capricious gods wreaking havoc. Instead, the etiological myth envisioned a single preternatural agent demanding ethical living. And it was no doubt this lesson (and not the implication) that was the motive force driving the oral transmission across generations.

To interpret such narratives as 'history' is absurdly naive, but to mock such narratives is intellectually bankrupt and petty in the extreme.

 

[sayak83]

The Gods of the time were capricious hyper-human and in competition with one another. This is in marked contrast to the YHWH of the ancient Hebrews which dictated ethical living as understood at that time. But the view faltered when seeking to deal with the problem of evil. If YHWH was the ultimate source and in ultimate control, then all current politics and all past [folk] history required theological explanation. So, for example, folk flood narratives - perhaps reflecting various Nile and Mesopotamian events - would eventually be conflated. For the followers of YHWH, at issue was not IF there was a catastrophic flood but, rather, WHY there was a catastrophic flood. In the new narrative, it was not the result of capricious gods wreaking havoc. Instead, the etiological myth envisioned a single preternatural agent demanding ethical living. And it was no doubt this lesson (and not the implication) that was the motive force driving the oral transmission across generations.

To interpret such narratives as 'history' is absurdly naive, but to mock such narratives is intellectually bankrupt and petty in the extreme.

If you do a poll on Christians, I am going to bet that most Christians and lots of Jews binging to orthodox leaning will say that the seven plagues of Egypt really happened and was decreed by God.

While I appreciate your non literalism and cultural evolutionary view of understanding of God, this remains a minority position. And even you severely short change the polytheists God's of Egypt.

Maat, the Moral Ideal in Ancient Egypt

 

[JustWondering]

The old testament has said that Egyptians keep jews as slaves, do we have proof of this? I saw a special about Egyptians how the made the Pyramids and they found a huge area where they had written on the walls journals of young Egyptian men who had been recruited to build the Pyramids not slaves.

The bible also says they're were many plagues God put on Egyptians and that Jews crossed the red sea, what proof is there for any of this or even that Egyptians kept Jewish slaves?

If there were any evidence of this or other claims in the bible theists wouldn't need faith and everyone would be Jewish or Christian, depending on the evidence of course.

 

[roger1440]

The value is to the person the polemic is addressed to. Different Christians and different Jews have vastly different conceptions of God even though all of them base it on the same story. Your conception of God is different from Rogers, and my reply is directed as his ideas and not yours. His response suggested to me that
a) He believes these stories literally happened as told.
b) Whatever God does in these stories is justified by fiat. If God kills, it's not murder, by definition.

This creates a God of might is right and the polemic attacks this formulation.

Even if the stories are nonliteral, it does appear that ancient Jews and Christians believed them as is. So the question arises, how flawed is the conception of God these people had if they came from stories where God does these things?

Never did I give the slightest hint if I believed the story is literally true or not. All I have done is stay within the story line. According to the Bible, God is Just. Therefore his actions are just. We must then come to the conclusion taking the lives of Egyptian children must have been just. The question should then be why it was just and not if it was just. In order to answer the question we have to stay within the story line and not deviate from it.

“…For the Lord is a God of justice…” (Isaiah 30:18)

We could just as well have been discussing Goldilocks and the three bears. Goldilocks by definition was a squatter. Should she have been persecuted under the law? Some would yes. She had taken possession of an unoccupied home without permission. Ohers may say no. She had taken possession of the home out of necessity and meant no malice. It would make no difference whether or not the story is true in order to discuss Goldilocks’s right or wrong behavior. But in order to do so we have to stay within the confines of the story.

Goldilocks and the Three Bears - Wikipedia

Squatters Rights and How To Evict Them | LandLordStation.com

the definition of squatter

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If you do a poll on Christians, I am going to bet that most Christians and lots of Jews binging to orthodox leaning will say that the seven plagues of Egypt really happened and was decreed by God.

That would be an interesting poll. I was sorry to see that this Gallup Poll addressed Christians only. As it stands, the poll seems undermine your opinion of "most Christians." As for "lots of Jews", my experience with non-orthodox Jews suggests an even greater willingness to embrace Torah as something less than the literal word of God passed down through Moses. Certainly Etz Hayim and the Plaut Commentary - the Torahs of choice in the Conservative and Reform movements - are laced with explanatory text that argue against literalism.

While I appreciate your non literalism and cultural evolutionary view of understanding of God, this remains a minority position.

It seems that you're exposing a personal bias.

And even you severely short change the polytheists God's of Egypt.

Perhaps. Nevertheless, one discussion of the Epic of Gilgamesh quotes ...

"You know the city Shurrupak, it stands on the banks of the Euphrates. That city grew old and the gods that were in it were old. There was Anu, lord of the firmament {earth}, their father, and warrior Enlil their counselor, Ninurta the helper, and Ennugi, watcher over canals; and with them also was Ea. In those days the world teemed, the people multiplied, the world bellowed like a wild bull, and the great god was aroused by the clamor. Enlil heard the clamor and he said to the gods in council, 'The uproar of mankind is intolerable and sleep is no longer possible by reason of the babel {everyone talking at once}.' So the gods agreed to exterminate mankind. [emphasis added - JS] Enlil did this, but Ea warned me in a dream. He whispered their words to my house of reeds, “Reed-house, reed-house! Wall, O wall, hearken reed-house, wall reflect; O man of Shurrupak, son of Ubara-Tutu; tear down your house and build a boat, abandon possessions and look for life, despise worldly goods and save your soul alive. Tear down your house, I say, and build a boat. These are the measurements of the barque {boat} as you shall build her: let her beam equal her length, let her deck be roofed like the vault that covers the abyss; then take up into the boat the seed of all living creatures."​

In the Biblical flood narrative:

The Lord saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, “I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created—people together with animals and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the sight of the Lord. [NSRV]​

Maat, the Moral Ideal in Ancient Egypt

Have you read the book?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

By the way, the current Biblical Archaeology Review has an excellent article by Dever titled: "Whom Do You Believe - The Bible or Archaeology?".

 

[shunyadragon]

By the way, the current Biblical Archaeology Review has an excellent article by Dever titled: "Whom Do You Believe - The Bible or Archaeology?".

Thank you for the reference!!!!!

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

George Rawlinson, 1862

Dear Mr Rawlinson of the 19th century, which is the last century most people ever get to for their schoolings:

I have a hard time believing no Jew ever questioned the scriptures, given how often the scriptural authors complain the regular folks aren't listening to them and how "they knew not the Lord".

The position of the Egyptians with respect to foreigners—their separation from them, yet their allowance of them in their country, their special hatred of shepherds, the suspicion of strangers from Palestine as spies—their internal government, its settled character, the power of the King, the influence of the Priests, the great works, the employment of foreigners in their construction, the use of bricks, . . . and of bricks with straw in them, . . . the taskmasters, the embalming of dead bodies, the consequent importation of spices, . . . the violent mournings, . . . the fighting with horses and chariots .

Mr. Rawlinson ... seriously? If you read ancient Chinese texts, like Journey to the West, and find a bunch of locations and cultural things that are verifiable, does that mean a pig and a monkey and a river demon joined a monk on an adventure to India?

We do not have archeological finds that suggest it, but in fact the Bible is not saying to us anything as it is written to Jews. We are not Jews, so it is not saying that to us. It is saying something to them. Its like a love letter. You cannot really know everything that is being said unless its to you.

It is a love letter that Yahweh will offer a single family shelter in a vast fertile paradise, only to go to sleep for about 400 years while their descendants get (supposedly) treated like crap.

I go with the latest and most comprehensive archaeological discoveries, research and dating methods.

You don't depend on 19th century scholarship desperate to justify belief in scripture?

Something like that. But the world is far less dangerous when we put our trust in God and let him fight our battles.

Just as long as they don't have iron. God is apparently a pokemon weak against steel attacks.

Well, yes. The Exodus from Egypt story has a pretty clear message-- the bible's god really really wants to murder Pharaoh in the most brutal of ways-- so it an get much glory from his death.

Egypt, prior to Bablyon, also represents the most hated thing the prophets/authors could think up: civilization. They idealized the nomadic life where THEY were the ones the little people went to for problems. In civilization, you need more than a simple prophet who spouts off things every once in awhile when the mood strikes him/her. They hated freedom, really.

Question: why did not bible-god simply allow Pharaoh to capitulate at the beginning? Or simply snuff him with a convenient heart attack? How much death and suffering could have been eliminated .... !

Or maybe just mindwipe the guy so the Hebrews can just leave and Pharaoh won't even realize it?

I believe it was written as a mythical allegory for the exile in Babylonia and to appeal to and justify Hebrew tribal nationalism and monotheism in opposition to Canaanite/Ugarit polytheism on the return to their homeland where many of the Hebrews that remained in Judea during the exile believed in Canaanite/Ugarit polytheism.

Exactly. It's a political metaphor for what was going on at the time written, except it was written mostly by people who, if alive today, would be anchoring at Fox News.

n other words when Hebrews left the EGyptian area, many Hebrews stayed and believe in the Egyptian Gods and Godesses, or Caanan Gods and Goddesses; The myth was created so when they came back home they could create a sense of nationalism, patriotic pride, to encourage belief in Monotheism.

It's not so much that they left as that most of them were never there in the first place, unless you count territories IN Canaan as Egypt since Egypt ruled it at certain times.

When you watch the old movies about ,like the 10 Commandments, it says EGyptians enslaved the whole family of EGyptians, children women and all. Wiki and articles state that EGypts Hebrew slaves were only young male slaves. thought the bible stated the whole entirety of all HEbrews were slaves, so which is right?

Archaeology.
Again, the Exodus is also popular with the CSA people (as well as the people those people tried to screw over). It got reused as a metaphor for 19th century (oh, look, it's THAT century again, see above) where Africans used it as a message of hope over slavery and Europeans used it to tell themselves they freed themselves from evil black people.

The movie The 10 Commandments say that one Hebrew woman was kept to be a prostitute to a ruler, so did Egyptians keep JEwish women as sex slaves?

I'm a huge fan of the movie. Basically have it memorized. Cecil B. DeMille is not a biblical prophet and even at the beginning of the movie, you see he used multiple sources for his ideas. But deep down, especially when you understand the decade it was filmed, you have lily white Moses defeating a really tan Ramses, who had been technologically, legally, and ethically superior to just about every civilization in the area, at least according to Egyptian documentation. This is a film for those white "sovereign citizens" who think they don't need a government telling them what to do. He also did one in the 20's which was ALSO a high time for the post Civil War KKK and eugenics cancers of society.

If Pharaoh let the Jews go the author wouldn’t have much to work with to create a story.

Because God apparently doesn't know how to resolve things diplomatically or with any kind of sense.

Moses: Let's go, homies. Back to the land of our fathers!
Hebrews: Supposedly our fathers are from here and have been for 400 years.
Moses: No, you gotta go WAY back. I'm getting you free from slavery.
Hebrews: So, you have some territory set up?
Moses: Nah. We'll have to kill people and take their stuff.
Hebrews: We are slaves without weapons and they'll be mighty ticked off.
Moses: It's cool, though. I have a magic fire tornado and a magic stick. Just wipe some lamb's blood on your doors so God won't kill you and we'll sneak out later.
Hebrews: We're God's chosen people?
Moses: Exactly.
Hebrews (head tilt): He doesn't know who we are? We have to tell Him? What's to stop Egyptians from seeing what we're doing and putting lamb's blood on THEIR DOORS?
Moses: God's not an idiot. Don't be stupid.
Hebrews: He wants us to go out with few supplies into a land filled with bandits and angry future victims of your raids with a very angry army behind us and He's NOT stupid?
Moses: God will provide!
Hebrews: HE could provide NOW. Where's He been for 400 years?
Moses: He's heard your cries of bondage!
Hebrews: Longest. Wait. Times. Ever. If modernity is ever invented, we hope no one ever has to wait centuries to get something useful done that could be solved in about 10 minutes or less.

 

[roger1440]

The original question was, is the story of the exodus of the Jews true. In other words did the Jews create the story? A more profound question would be to ask it in the other direction. Did the story of the exodus create the Jews?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

A more profound question would be to ask it in the other direction. Did the story of the exodus create the Jews?

A better term would be "sustain."

 

[roger1440]

A better term would be "sustain."

What do you mean?

 

[roger1440]

Because God apparently doesn't know how to resolve things diplomatically or with any kind of sense.

How would the captive negotiate with their captor? There is no compromise. One can not be partly free and partly captive. There is no middle ground. It’s like being partly pregnant. A woman is or is not pregnant. There are no shades of gray. In a hostage situation the authorities will normally negotiate first. If hostages are not released action is taken by the authorities. Again, there is no middle ground.

 

[Brickjectivity]

It is a love letter that Yahweh will offer a single family shelter in a vast fertile paradise, only to go to sleep for about 400 years while their descendants get (supposedly) treated like crap.

I'm saying there's no point demanding proof of the Exodus. The book was pried out of cold dead hands, and thousands of years have been spent attempting to co-opt it for various purposes. I'm not saying we shouldn't read it, but I am saying we cannot demand an explanation as if it were owed. For example, I grow up in Church and am told X about Exodus. Does Jayhawker Soule owe me an explanation for X? No. Does the Bible owe me one? No. Who owes me the explanation? Nobody. It wasn't written to me in the first place.

 

[roger1440]

so did Egyptians keep JEwish women as sex slaves?

I wouldn't put it past them. To a horny man a woman is more valuable then gold.