Egyptian exodus proof or slavery?

[Brian2]

There in no red in the Hebrew text

Exactly. So let us examine if it matches with Indus chronology. Let me make clear again that the case for Indus rests on 3 yam aur, volcano and the presence of mirror image of moses in krishna.

I don't think there was a mirror image of Moses in Krishna.

I was wondering what you meant by 3 yam aur and started hunting to find Hindi meanings and came upon your sites.
Could Moses have led the Exodus from the Indus Valley?
Exodus: A Reconsideration of Hoffmeier’s “Out of Egypt”
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-...se-article_more-articles_related-content-card
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/wher...se-article_more-articles_related-content-card
Did the R-M124 gene pass from the Yadavas of India to the Jews?

I did not realise that you had written a book about the topic.
I would say that you have invested a lot in your ideas and that is why you don't seem to be able to take in and learn what has been shown to you (if you have read/listened to it) about the actual evidence for Israel having been in Egypt and having gone from there to Canaan and started the conquest in about 1410 BC. etc etc.

People have tried to start something to join all people into one religion before and have ended up doing the opposite and being another source of division even if they end up starting a religion.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

There in no red in the Hebrew text.

Further, comparing rainfall between Egypt and the Indus Valley the Indus Valley does not match any Hebrew Torah based description from any Israeli/Jewish source.

 

[Brian2]

This sounds like your way of saying that the Biblical narrative doesn't make sense unless you start with the assumption that it has to be right.

Does it? It should have sounded like, if archaeologists and historians and you read the Bible account in Joshua as being the truth and tried to understand what the account tells us, then it would be easy to see why the archaeological records show what they do without resorting to making up another story (eg no exodus, no conquest, Hebrews were already living in Canaan etc)

If we believe the Bible - particularly the story in Numbers of the census that happened after the Israelites left Egypt but before they got to Canaan - then just the men numbered 600,000 people (which is enough that a line of them standing shoulder-to-shoulder could have stretched across the entire Sinai peninsula at its widest point, BTW). The number of women and children in the group would have meant that many more people than just the 600,000 men were in the group tbat settled in Canaan.

If you don't think that more than a million people - potentially much more - was enough to "fill the land," how many people do you think were needed?

... and what evidence do you have that Israel ever got to these population levels? 1 to 2 million people would have been a massive population in the ancient world.

Yes numbers in the Hebrew part of the Bible can be problematic. Part of the problem is that they are written in words and not numerals and the words used can have more than one meaning. This has led Bible experts to come up with possible explanations for such large numbers. The sites below show some possibilities.
How many came out of the exodus of Egypt| AHRC
How many Israelites left Egypt in the exodus? | GotQuestions.org

Sounds like you agree that there's no archeological evidence of an Israelite invasion or the displacement of non-Jewish Canaanites.

Does it sound like that? It should sound like all the archaeological evidence is there to agree with the Biblical story of the conquest but it is in a time period that is 200 years earlier than many archaeologists say that the Exodus happened. The evidence is in the time period that the Bible tells us the Exodus happened.

Here's a question for you: when's the first evidence of the Exodus story... e.g. a manuscript of the account? Is it before or after the Babylonian exile?

The altar that Joshua built on Mt Ebal where Joshua was to read the curses of the Law was found and now at the site a lead tablet, a curse tablet, was found and that seems to confirm the altar to be the Joshua altar.
That find would be from the time when Joshua read the curses. (Joshua 8:30-35) Some time around 1400 BC I imagine.

 

[River Sea]

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala

I don't think there was a mirror image of Moses in Krishna.

I was wondering what you meant by 3 yam aur and started hunting to find Hindi meanings and came upon your sites.
Could Moses have led the Exodus from the Indus Valley?
Exodus: A Reconsideration of Hoffmeier’s “Out of Egypt”
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-...se-article_more-articles_related-content-card
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/wher...se-article_more-articles_related-content-card
Did the R-M124 gene pass from the Yadavas of India to the Jews?

I did not realise that you had written a book about the topic.
I would say that you have invested a lot in your ideas and that is why you don't seem to be able to take in and learn what has been shown to you (if you have read/listened to it) about the actual evidence for Israel having been in Egypt and having gone from there to Canaan and started the conquest in about 1410 BC. etc etc.

People have tried to start something to join all people into one religion before and have ended up doing the opposite and being another source of division even if they end up starting a religion.

@Brian2 you asked,
I was wondering what you meant by 3 yam aur

RS: I think Yam means large body of water., that makes sound,
Suph is reeds, that's a plant right? What happens if there's no plants, then would it only be Yam?

 

[River Sea]

I was soooo thrilled at finding 4 rivers. Oh my gosh! That was the feeling. Exodus came much later when I found that hindu texts say that krishna left for an unknown country.

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala
4 rivers as you found., I can imagine the excitement, yes yes Yes yes,
I mean you study rivers and then to discover this., four rivers Sagarmati, Saraswati, Nahar and Dai., oh and in the Rig Veda is it, rivers has juices taste of Juices., a description., right?

 

[Brian2]

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala


@Brian2 you asked,
I was wondering what you meant by 3 yam aur

RS: I think Yam means large body of water., that makes sound,
Suph is reeds, that's a plant right? What happens if there's no plants, then would it only be Yam?

OK thanks.

 

[joelr]

Oh, my! For the record, the questions were:

Right, mr how many books have you read is surprised when he gets called out?​

Clearly your silly tantrum managed to avoid the questions while focussing on your testosterone level. I'll leave it to the experts to assess your use of the phrase "jacked up" and your apparent need to boast about (and capitalize) testosterone.

Hmmm, maybe because there was no question and just a snarky reply? Pointing out capital letters, the false "tantrum" accusation trick and poking at my mention of my T levels is one big fail at a response.
Again, tell me what historical fact I got wrong and source it? Or just keep flexing how many books you have read I guess?
I guess I have to explain that you are the one making it a contest but you're giving me flack? Bizarre? By referencing T levels I'm demonstrating how silly it is to ....never mind....

​

Just look at you: moving the goalpost without hardly breaking a sweat! I suppose that such things are relatively easy for someone with your Testosterone [sic] level.

Again, big fail. That's what you get for writing a non-response. Had you responded there may have actually been a goalpost to move. But again, you are making things up about a non-post.
Not only is there no goal post moved but you didn't respond to any points? The books you gave are reaching similar conclusions to Dever? So why does it matter how many books I read when they seem to be in agreement?
Now I hate to ruin your nice response you thought you came up with but the word I was using is technically always capitalized. I just left out the full name.
Testosterone Cypionate. Not my endogenous testosterone. That's low.

J
Parenthetically, I rather like Dever; I believe that I first referenced him here seventeen years ago.

Is what you could have started with...

 

[joelr]

What are your thoughts about the Dan tribe?
Where are the Dan tribe? Are the Dan tribe Germans?
What tribe do you think Indians are from India?
Did they need a lot of straw at land of Canaanites? Did they use stone or bricks?
the sea people how come they were dangerous, how come Hebrews didn't become sea people too?
Have you ever heard of pie proto-indo european
“the Proto-Indo European PIE evolved into Germanic and other IE languages westward and Sanskrit eastward…”
What is Hebrew Language where did it come from?
3 yam suph you want to guess where?

Exactly none of this has to do with OT historicity except Hebrew language which was originally proto-Canaanite so it's ex-Canaanites creating a new language. But thats for linguists.

What are your thoughts about Francesca Stavrakopoulou style of writing?

Good scholar, well researched, rational and skeptical writer not influenced by apologists re-writing of history.

What style of writing is the Torah?

Creation myth, narrative, law giving, poetry, myth, speech.....

what style of writing is the new testament?

myth, Hellenistic theology/philosophy

What style of writing is William Shakespeare writing?
What is similar what is different?
Was there santa claus during exodus era, if not how come?
What did Moses think and feel when finding out being adopted?
Where are the bones from horses?
how come no one went and check on Moses when he was up on the volcano., how come no one went to find out how's Moses is doing?
How come they made an idol that's 3 inches tall., how many people who dance around this small idol were able to see this idol from a distance?
This idol was a calf how rich were these Hebrews who travel to Yisrael when they have gold with them?

Santa was seen on a pillar of fire at night and smoke during the day. That was Santa right?

 

[joelr]

A peaceful expansion on virgin soil at 1200 bce goes with a small invasion at 1500 bce. I believe there IS evidence for some conflict at 1500 bce. As I said in this thread we are unnecessarily looking for exodus at 1200 bce.

What is the evidence you are talking about?

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

But of course the Bible speaks of Egypt and the Nile river and the wilderness between Egypt and Israel and various locations in that area. The Indus Valley has nothing to do with the Biblical story of Israel at that time.

There are too many unresolved problems such as Yam Suf x3, Sinai volcano, no Egyptian equivalent of Moses. The Bible only gives these names that have been attached to certain placed in West Asia by convention. Bible does NOT say where Mitsrayim etc. were located. And, the pre-Exodus geographical descriptions do NOT match with West Asia (irrespective of internal evolution within Canaan or Exodus from Egypt). So it is time to look elsewhere. Please rest assured I believe that Bible is word of God. I want to retrieve its true geography and strengthen its historicity.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

What is the evidence you are talking about?

I will have to do research to provide evidence. I recall some member posting the limited evidence on this tread. That sais, before I do research, do you believe that Joshua's conflicts did not exist at all, or were they local?

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

This sounds like your way of saying that the Biblical narrative doesn't make sense unless you start with the assumption that it has to be right.

The Biblical narrative cannot be dismissed and cannot be taken to be true literally. We have to apply our minds to see whether it is supported archaeologically.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

What is described in Torath Mosheh Jewish sources is that the Source of reality/creation, Hashem, being the source of how all reality works put in place exceptions to the way we expect reality to work for specific purposes. The ability for water, in Egypt at a specific time, to turn into blood, at a very specific time in history, for the sake of what we called in Hebrew (עשר מכות) "Eser Makkot" is one of those exceptions.

Thus, Jewish sources describe that even in when a Mitzri and a Yisraeli were in the same area for the Mitzri it was very much (דם) and for the Yisraeli it was (מים).

Also, very important to note the word (דם) does not mean "still or stagnant" the three letter root (ד-מ-ה) that (דם) comes from means "resemble" and by some is considered to be a Gradational Varient of the roots (ד-ו-מ) and (ד-מ-מ) which "can" mean quiet based on thier grammer and structure. Ancient Hebrew worked off of three letter roots called Shoreshim and all words are built on this system and thus two words that have the same root can have differnt meanings based on their grammer and structure.

I hope that helps.

The first plague was of the water of the river becoming “blood.”https://www.religiousforums.com/#_edn1 We know though that water does not turn into blood. Thus we looked at the alternative meanings of the Hebrew word for “blood.” We found that the word also means “silent or still.”[ii] We accept this meaning because a river could possibly stop flowing. The plague therefore could be of the water of the river becoming still or stagnant. This could be the Hakra River which had become stagnant at that time as we shall show in the next section of this chapter.

Sarna explains this plague in terms of the flow of red colored sediments carried by the Nile River.[iii] Indeed, the Nile carries red colored sediments as it recedes from the floods.[iv] However, the Nile does not match with the other plagues that we shall discuss shortly.

John I Durham, author of the volume on the Book of Exodus of the Word Biblical Commentary suggests that water of the river had become putrid because of a miraculous act by God.[v] A water becomes putrid when it does not flow and does not absorb oxygen; the fish then do not get adequate oxygen, they die and begin to decompose. The miraculous act by God, therefore, need not be of making the water putrid directly. Instead, the miraculous act could be of stopping the flow of the River of Mitsrayim, which then led the river to become putrid.

The second plague was of frogs. These animals live in the swamps.[vi] The frog population may have increased due to the river having become a swamp due to the reduction of flow.

The third plague was of lice. Not washing clothes leads to the development of lice which live in the seams and folds of clothes.[vii] This indicates that fresh water for washing clothes was not easily available.

The fourth plague was of flies. Animal excrement and garbage are the breeding places for these insects.[viii] Non-availability of water for cleaning areas of habitation could have led to this plague.

The sixth plague was of boils. These are caused by bacteria or fungi found on the skin surface.[ix] This again indicates a lack of clean water for bathing.

Thus, the first plague directly indicates stoppage of flow of the river, the second plague tells of creation of swamps due to the same, and the third, fourth, and sixth plagues indicate a shortage of clean water. These five plagues indicate that the River of Mitsrayim had become stagnant at that time.


Bible, Exodus 7:20.

[ii] The word “dam” is derived from the word “damam” which means to be “dumb…, to stop; to perish; to cease, to be cut down, to rest, to be silent, to be still…” (Strong’s 01818, 01826).

[iii] Sarna, JPS, Exodus, Page 38-39.

[iv] American Red Cross, Receding Nile reveals damages in flood-ravaged Sudan, reliefweb.int/report/sudan/receding-nile-reveals-damages-flood-ravaged-sudan-0, 30 Aug 2001, Retrieved July 20, 2016.

[v] Durham, Word, Exodus, Page 97.

[vi] The Hebrew word for frog is “ts@phardea” which has its origin in “a word elsewhere unused, meaning a swamp” (Strong’s 06854).

[vii] National Institutes of Health, Body Lice, www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000838.htm, Retrieved July 24, 2013.

[viii] Ogg, Barb and Soni Cochran, Insects, Spiders, Mice and More, University of Nebraska, http://lancaster.unl.edu/pest/resources/flies015.shtm, Retrieved July 24, 2013.

[ix] National Institutes of Health, Boils, Boils: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia, Retrieved July 24, 2013.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

There in no red in the Hebrew text

Exactly. So let us examine if it matches with Indus chronology. Let me make clear again that the case for Indus rests on 3 yam aur, volcano and the presence of mirror image of moses in krishna.

My apologies for typo "yam aur." I meant yam suf. The Bible tells of three of them: Ex13:18, Num 33:10 and Num 21:4. I have found no discussion of Yam Suf mentioned at Num 33:10.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The first plague was of the water of the river becoming “blood.”

This is incorrect. The Hebrew text states that more than just one river was changed to blood. I.e. it wasn't just the Nile.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

----> ignore-list

 

[Brian2]

There are too many unresolved problems such as Yam Suf x3, Sinai volcano, no Egyptian equivalent of Moses. The Bible only gives these names that have been attached to certain placed in West Asia by convention. Bible does NOT say where Mitsrayim etc. were located. And, the pre-Exodus geographical descriptions do NOT match with West Asia (irrespective of internal evolution within Canaan or Exodus from Egypt). So it is time to look elsewhere. Please rest assured I believe that Bible is word of God. I want to retrieve its true geography and strengthen its historicity.

Have you heard of the Canal of Joseph (Bahr Yusef) in Egypt and how it fits very well with Joseph and the Biblical story about him and what he did in Egypt?
Canal of Joseph (Bahr Yussef)

Why do you say that Yam Suf x3 and Sinai volcano are unresolved problems?
Do you think that Egypt would have official records of Moses and the destruction of Egypt in his day?
There is enough in the unofficial record of the Ippuwer Papyrus however.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Sarna explains this plague in terms of the flow of red colored sediments carried by the Nile River.[iii] Indeed, the Nile carries red colored sediments as it recedes from the floods.[iv] However, the Nile does not match with the other plagues that we shall discuss shortly.

Incorrect. It does not explain why similar events have happened in locations that are not the Indus Valley. Further, does not explain why there are no Jews, anywhere, who have a historical claim of ever coming from the Indus Valley at some point. With the more than 2,500 year seperation some Jewish communities have it would make no sense that not one of them preserved a claim of being in the Indus Valley.

It makes more sense to say the event didn't happen than it does to invent a claim that does not match any of the historical claims made by those who actually know and interact with the language of the original claim.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The first plague was of the water of the river becoming “blood.” We know though that water does not turn into blood. Thus we looked at the alternative meanings of the Hebrew word for “blood.” We found that the word also means “silent or still.”[ii] We accept this meaning because a river could possibly stop flowing. The plague therefore could be of the water of the river becoming still or stagnant. This could be the Hakra River which had become stagnant at that time as we shall show in the next section of this chapter.

Sarna explains this plague in terms of the flow of red colored sediments carried by the Nile River.[iii] Indeed, the Nile carries red colored sediments as it recedes from the floods.[iv] However, the Nile does not match with the other plagues that we shall discuss shortly.

John I Durham, author of the volume on the Book of Exodus of the Word Biblical Commentary suggests that water of the river had become putrid because of a miraculous act by God.[v] A water becomes putrid when it does not flow and does not absorb oxygen; the fish then do not get adequate oxygen, they die and begin to decompose. The miraculous act by God, therefore, need not be of making the water putrid directly. Instead, the miraculous act could be of stopping the flow of the River of Mitsrayim, which then led the river to become putrid.

The second plague was of frogs. These animals live in the swamps.[vi] The frog population may have increased due to the river having become a swamp due to the reduction of flow.

The third plague was of lice. Not washing clothes leads to the development of lice which live in the seams and folds of clothes.[vii] This indicates that fresh water for washing clothes was not easily available.

The fourth plague was of flies. Animal excrement and garbage are the breeding places for these insects.[viii] Non-availability of water for cleaning areas of habitation could have led to this plague.

The sixth plague was of boils. These are caused by bacteria or fungi found on the skin surface.[ix] This again indicates a lack of clean water for bathing.

Thus, the first plague directly indicates stoppage of flow of the river, the second plague tells of creation of swamps due to the same, and the third, fourth, and sixth plagues indicate a shortage of clean water. These five plagues indicate that the River of Mitsrayim had become stagnant at that time.


Bible, Exodus 7:20.

[ii] The word “dam” is derived from the word “damam” which means to be “dumb…, to stop; to perish; to cease, to be cut down, to rest, to be silent, to be still…” (Strong’s 01818, 01826).

[iii] Sarna, JPS, Exodus, Page 38-39.

[iv] American Red Cross, Receding Nile reveals damages in flood-ravaged Sudan, reliefweb.int/report/sudan/receding-nile-reveals-damages-flood-ravaged-sudan-0, 30 Aug 2001, Retrieved July 20, 2016.

[v] Durham, Word, Exodus, Page 97.

[vi] The Hebrew word for frog is “ts@phardea” which has its origin in “a word elsewhere unused, meaning a swamp” (Strong’s 06854).

[vii] National Institutes of Health, Body Lice, www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000838.htm, Retrieved July 24, 2013.

[viii] Ogg, Barb and Soni Cochran, Insects, Spiders, Mice and More, University of Nebraska, http://lancaster.unl.edu/pest/resources/flies015.shtm, Retrieved July 24, 2013.

[ix] National Institutes of Health, Boils, Boils: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia, Retrieved July 24, 2013.

Also, nothing in the above makes the claim that the Indus Valley is where any of this took place.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

We know though that water does not turn into blood.

And, as the Hebrew text puts it this was not a normal event because according to current scientific understand water cannot naturally turn into blood. No matter where someone wants to invent the location the Hebrew text is describing the claim is that the events were not natural and could not be predicted to happen one after another for an entire year.