Enlightenment?

[MonkeyFire]

What's wrong with hopes and dreams. Your evil without them.

 

[Vinayaka]

The way I see jnana yoga is that it has little to do with studying scriptures. You just need to know the basics. It is an understanding that this is all One consciousness God/Brahman and we are in the illusion of separateness. And our goal is to live in this bliss of our expanding Oneness experience. The path to doing this is to program your thinking to this new way of viewing the universe and this looks like brotherly love and peace with a detachment from all the temporary events of our material existence. Well, that's a start of an explanation I hope. There is many ways to present things.

George, in my sampradaya, it goes even further. Jnana is the wisdom attained from meditation and the subsequent samadhi, not from books. So we take it right out of the intellect altogether.

But that's just us. Book knowledge, in my view can never be YOUR knowledge, by definition it is someone else's knowledge.

 

[saralynn]

George, in my sampradaya, it goes even further. Jnana is the wisdom attained from meditation and the subsequent samadhi, not from books. So we take it right out of the intellect altogether.

But that's just us. Book knowledge, in my view can never be YOUR knowledge, by definition it is someone else's knowledge.

This is VERY TRUE. I spent my entire adult life reading books until I recognized that I probably never had an original thought in my entire life. I just parroted people whose written thoughts resonated with me. My reading addiction was a sincere quest, but also a source of vanity.

 

[arthra]

I am beginning to think the key to mysticism is the commitment to Free Will, even if it is only called grit and determination. However, despite my efforts, I am still hounded by my baser impulses, even though I don't act on them. Sometimes I wonder if Enlightenment really exists.

Like you I went through some years of searching and finding spiritual pearls laying around in various places...While searching for truth is imperative and necessary we can go through various conditions..sometimes doubt and sometimes close to despair. One of the problems or shall we say pitfalls of being an independent seeker is the danger of becoming our own "law" or standard.. and you'll find your self moving goal posts around accommodating some of the those baser instincts you mention above. All of us on the spiritual path require in my view some standards.

I reached a stage where I realized I could not reject any of the great Teachers and as we Baha'is call Them Manifestations of God... I found the Baha'i teachings accept Them all.. and offers us what today are the standards we require for these times.

 

[YmirGF]

First off, @saralynn I find your writing style to be quite delightful. You sound like a pretty normal person to me, then again, I am a bit of a weirdo LOL.

Y'know, YmirGF, I think you may be right about my brain being a bit addled because of my religious identity, which is always in flux. You said it more politely, but it amounts to the same thing. Lately, the Catholic in me has emerged and she is a real harpy. Nag nag nag. Guilt guilt guilt. The Buddhist is patient with her and chats with her about detachment, but she is a persistent self-obsessed woman.

*gets the giggles*

Now, I don't want to be self-indulgent (revise that: I don't want to APPEAR self-indulgent), but my thoughts about the dubious reality of Enlightenment emerged because of a stressful relationship I am having with a woman who irritates me beyond reason. I am trying to respond to her with loving-kindness and I DO, in my behavior, but inside my brain, I fester. She is certainly not an ill-intentioned person and tries to be sensitive, but she is sooooo needy and obtuse and pretentious that it makes me cringe...at both what she says and how I respond. She used to be quite wealthy and spoiled, but now she is having serious financial problems and I am trying to help her. I give her food and money and I gave her all my gift certificates that I had received at Christmas. I am not bragging about this because I did these kind deeds unwillingly. I ORDERED myself to do them. But, alas, I can't order my emotions to do what I want and my dislike for her is getting more and more intense. The other day, when I gave her apples, she told me she only eats organic apples. I felt like biting her.

I will be totally honest here. When I read the last part I burst out laughing. I can just see it. I might be inclined to have responded, "You know, there is an old adage that says that a certain disenfranchised class cannot be choosy. Jus' sayin', hon."

So, these are the strategies I have been using. 1. I imagine her as a child 2. I imagine her being tortured by Isis. 3. I imagine myself on my deathbed, thinking about her. 4. I try to BE her. 5.I imagine ourselves as characters in a novel, and I try to think like I would want my character in the novel to think. 6. i watch my angry self from a distance. I am good at doing this when I am alone, but fail miserably when I interact with her. 7. I imagine Jesus or Ramakrishna or Pope Francis by my side cheering me on. 8 I imagine Jesus or Ramakrishna or Pope Francis looking at me with a disappointed expression 9. I imagine that I am battling a demon. 10. I think about how much I am learning about myself as a result of her presence in my life. The "manure for Enlightenment" idea. 11. I try not to expect her to act differently. 12. I take brisk walks and mutter to myself.

*spits out a mouthful of coffee on his monitor*
*grabs a handful of paper-towel and wipes off the general area*
*bursts into racious laughter*
(Know that I'm laughing with you NOT at you!)
You seem to have a great sense of humor and that IS a very good sign!

Thus far, none of these strategies has worked. I have advanced from minor irritation to loathing. I WANT my gift certificates back!

I hear ya, momma. I've been going though similar things with my strange sister for the last 8 1/2 months. It's like potty training a 2 year old and she is 62 and 18 months OLDER than me. I wish I had a quarter for every time I've said, "Are you insane?" in this period of time. Meanwhile she is going, "lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala... oh, look, summin' shiny. What, WHAT could it be?" (AAAAaaagggghhhhh!)

So, does anyone have any suggestions? Should we, as Mother Teresa used to say, "Give until it hurts"? Is it foolish to act in way which reflects a level of spirituality which you have not yet attained? Or is it better to "Fake it until you make it."?

I'm not a fan of the shrew from Albania, so I'd have to go with door #2, Alex.

In actuality, I am not as frustrated with her as I am frustrated with myself. I wanna be enlightened....NOW!

Well, like a good stew or a fabulous pot of chili you can't rush a good thing.

On a more serious note....

My first advice is to explore your emotions. You have them for good reason. Understand why you are feeling as you do. Drill down through the layers and try to get to the meat of the matter. You will not gain enlightenment by ignoring emotions and here I'd like to bring in two of my heavyweight spiritual friends to see if they have any advice to add @crossfire and @Windwalker

In my view, both these folks are the genuine article and they always have something thoughtful to say. Sometimes too much so... *giggles*

That said, you sound pretty together to me. You articulate your situation extremely well and I do sense an inner vibrancy to you. You're fine. Just be patient and follow your heart ... (IE. Listen to your emotional side. It's desperately trying to get your attention. Dispense with trying to be a nice person and let the nicer person out. Sometimes you have to be cool to others to make them appreciate your actions. This is especially true when they have come to expect your help. A small dish of cold water splashes a long way.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, my spiritual journey (OMG, I hate that phrase) .. "Oh yeah! I know about Judaism! I was a Jew for six months!") ..

I too engaged in my wandering, but I remained a Hindu all through. In the end, I chose my path as being a non-dualist strong-atheist Hindu. I won't blame the Jews for having that opinion about you. Understanding a religion requires time.

 

[YmirGF]

George, in my sampradaya, it goes even further. Jnana is the wisdom attained from meditation and the subsequent samadhi, not from books. So we take it right out of the intellect altogether.

But that's just us. Book knowledge, in my view can never be YOUR knowledge, by definition it is someone else's knowledge.

I have to agree. I've only used books for confirmation of what I was going through, to make sure I wasn't the only one. Direct experience is a pretty stunning teacher... as long as one remembers not to take what they are seeing too literally or assume they understand all the ramifications and permutations involved. Reality is somewhat like an onion with endless layers to peel through. And it's never quite what you thought it was going in...

 

[Aupmanyav]

It puzzles me why some people are not as obsessed as I am about finding "ultimate meaning", but 'tis true.

I am skipping through the topic. There are two roads to enlightenment: 1. With God or 2. Without God. Can you get over the God thing or must you have a God?

Buddha did not need a God to be enlightened or to know the 'ultimate meaning'. Many others could not/did not do without it.

I'd better let go of the branch because death is peering over my left shoulder. If I could only stop thinking about stopping thinking! Now I am thinking about stopping thinking about stopping thinking. No wonder I am so exhausted.

Don't exhaust yourself. Actually, Buddha advocated this. He said pay attention to the way you live. Don't spend your time in speculation. Why should one exhaust him/herself for something that does not affect our lives?

 

[sun rise]

If asked, I would say that I am a follower of jnana yoga, in the sense that I have read and read and read various scriptures throughout my life. Okay that's not quite true. I read books ABOUT the Scriptures, rather than the scriptures themselves. This may explain my lack of progress. I wish there was a type of yoga for lazy people. As a person who loves reading about Catholic saints, I am drawn to Bhakti yoga. This is difficult for me, though, because the only unconditional love I have is for my dog. My dog is old and smelly and arthritic and has bad breath, but I carry him around from room and brush his teeth. I am not sure that I would do this for my husband.

As a dog lover, I can totally relate to your love for your dog.

To me there is Bhakti yoga for lazy people - whenever you can, be kind. That is the essence of my practice - to cheer people up, to be kind, to help. The more I practice this, the more the frozen rivers in my heart start melting and flowing.

 

[saralynn]

Thanks everyone!

 

[Baroodi]

Multi-faith in one heart= only wandering hallucination

 

[miodrag]

Sometimes I wonder if Enlightenment really exists.

There is no mysticism as separate from spirituality. You sound like a mystic wanna-be? In my opinion, mystic experience comes as a natural consequence of a genuine spiritual practice. Experience follows practice. Problem is that there are many false gurus, offering enlightenment, but no spirituality; promising taste, without nutrition. That is cheap and pathetic. Mysticism is a direct experience of Divine, everything else is just an obstacle, regardless how pleasant or extraordinary it may seem. Mystic experience is not something you ought to seek or want, it is like a verification that you passed some test. And it usually comes after a spiritual realization already changed your perspective so significantly, that you do not regard that mystic experience as mystical any more. It becomes just a natural event in your spiritual life. Enlightenment is a rare occasion when spiritual reality is experienced while being still in the material world. It is not expected for every perfect soul to become enlightened. Awakening in spirit is all we should aim at, but enlightenment is something more. It is like having a spiritual perspective of a both spiritual and material worlds. It is like observing through the eyes of God, and that is just an oddity that guarantees nothing and can in fact become impediment to a further spiritual progress...

As a person who loves reading about Catholic saints, I am drawn to Bhakti yoga. This is difficult for me, though, because the only unconditional love I have is for my dog.

Bhakti is an emotion that can be experienced exclusively with God. You cannot force yourself to love, it comes naturally. Bhakti yoga is a methodology which involves nine processes, like rituals or daily practice, sadhana, discipline - to fix your consciousness on God. Then bhakti comes naturally, since we cannot but love God when we discover Him. Krishna means all-attractive, you will be naturally drawn to Him. Except if you were a demon... you got the point.

Religious identity is not the issue, practice is. Steady practice and association with those spiritually more advanced will make the difference. There are saints in all religions - it is not a particular theology that made them saints.

because of a stressful relationship I am having with a woman who irritates me beyond reason.

If you do not how to live in this world, then you either need a guidance, or you need to grow up.

George, in my sampradaya, it goes even further. Jnana is the wisdom attained from meditation and the subsequent samadhi, not from books

Well, in my sampradaya it goes even further : jnana is attained only from a jnani. Jnana comes only from the source, it does not exist as an individual resource, so you can pick it up from a tree. In fact I want to stress that it takes a blessing for attaining jnana. It comes from a soul, it is a result of a self realization (atma-vada) so I agree that it comes from an "intellect", but even being our own potential, it cannot be fully uncovered without a guru-Krishna kripa, a mercy from a master or God.

Buddha did not need a God to be enlightened...

True, but no surprise for those Vaishnavas who consider Buddha to be a ninth avatar of Vishnu.

 

[saralynn]

Multi-faith in one heart= only wandering hallucination

please explicate. I am a muddle, so I don't think it is a hallucination. If it were a hallucination, I wouldn't be in a muddle. I'd hallucinate clarity. Maybe I am substituting "delusion" for "hallucination" or you mean something entirely different.

 

[Robert Landbeck]

I am very interested in mysticism, which is why I describe myself as a Catholic-Buddhist-Sufi-Jewish-Hindu Quaker. The core of the mystical experience in many different religions involves peace and joy etc. I mean, someone who has a revelation of "God", in whatever form it takes. never concludes that God is Strife, Hatred, Cruelty and Deceit.

I have always longed for a mystical encounter with that Holy "Something" that others have encountered but it seems not to be my fate, so I have stumbled along in my quest for Enlightenment, hoping (yep, and praying) that my quest is not a hope, a dream and an illusion.

My religious experiences have always been ambiguous. Moments of grace, which might be coincidence, and fleeting feelings of "oneness"

I am beginning to think the key to mysticism is the commitment to Free Will, even if it is only called grit and determination. However, despite my efforts, I am still hounded by my baser impulses, even though I don't act on them. Sometimes I wonder if Enlightenment really exists.

I have to agree with your suspicion. A path to true Enlightenment does not exist from any of the traditions that would pretend otherwise. They are only self deceptions being sold to the gullible. But such aspiration is itself both valuable and important to maintain and to guard carefully. It may come in handy when you least expect it!

 

[Vinayaka]

Well, in my sampradaya it goes even further : jnana is attained only from a jnani. Jnana comes only from the source, it does not exist as an individual resource, so you can pick it up from a tree. In fact I want to stress that it takes a blessing for attaining jnana. It comes from a soul, it is a result of a self realization (atma-vada) so I agree that it comes from an "intellect", but even being our own potential, it cannot be fully uncovered without a guru-Krishna kripa, a mercy from a master or God.

I agree.

 

[saralynn]

There is no mysticism as separate from spirituality. You sound like a mystic wanna-be? In my opinion, mystic experience comes as a natural consequence of a genuine spiritual practice. Experience follows practice. Problem is that there are many false gurus, offering enlightenment, but no spirituality; promising taste, without nutrition. That is cheap and pathetic. Mysticism is a direct experience of Divine, everything else is just an obstacle, regardless how pleasant or extraordinary it may seem. Mystic experience is not something you ought to seek or want, it is like a verification that you passed some test. And it usually comes after a spiritual realization already changed your perspective so significantly, that you do not regard that mystic experience as mystical any more. It becomes just a natural event in your spiritual life. Enlightenment is a rare occasion when spiritual reality is experienced while being still in the material world. It is not expected for every perfect soul to become enlightened. Awakening in spirit is all we should aim at, but enlightenment is something more. It is like having a spiritual perspective of a both spiritual and material worlds. It is like observing through the eyes of God, and that is just an oddity that guarantees nothing and can in fact become impediment to a further spiritual progress...




Bhakti is an emotion that can be experienced exclusively with God. You cannot force yourself to love, it comes naturally. Bhakti yoga is a methodology which involves nine processes, like rituals or daily practice, sadhana, discipline - to fix your consciousness on God. Then bhakti comes naturally, since we cannot but love God when we discover Him. Krishna means all-attractive, you will be naturally drawn to Him. Except if you were a demon... you got the point.

Religious identity is not the issue, practice is. Steady practice and association with those spiritually more advanced will make the difference. There are saints in all religions - it is not a particular theology that made them saints.

If you do not how to live in this world, then you either need a guidance, or you need to grow up.

Well, in my sampradaya it goes even further : jnana is attained only from a jnani. Jnana comes only from the source, it does not exist as an individual resource, so you can pick it up from a tree. In fact I want to stress that it takes a blessing for attaining jnana. It comes from a soul, it is a result of a self realization (atma-vada) so I agree that it comes from an "intellect", but even being our own potential, it cannot be fully uncovered without a guru-Krishna kripa, a mercy from a master or God

True, but no surprise for those Vaishnavas who consider Buddha to be a ninth avatar of Vishnu.

Well, I used to be a mystic wanna-be. but not so much anymore. Now I just want a conviction because my brain is jumbled by a whole bunch of mutually exclusive convictions. Or maybe not. Maybe there is a core of mutuality. Like a venn diagram.

This morning, I woke up a Catholic. I went to bed a Buddhist, but then this morning I was thinking maybe I have to surrender totally to God. However, I don't think I trust that guy/gal/it, though, because of the babies dying in Africa with flies in their eyes obstacle. But, on the other hand, if I could explain God, God wouldn't be God.

Actually, I am pretty even-tempered and tolerant of other people's character flaws because I have so many myself and, hey, as I said, we are all bozos on the bus. My nemesis (who doesn't deserve to be called a nemesis) seems to be a symbol, of sorts, of everything which I despise in people. I am stalwart; she emotes; I would never never ask anyone for anything (although I might adopt a pose of proud desperation), she asks me for something 10 times a day; I am guilt-ridden, she is not given to self-examination.

Now, I recognize that these faults are trivial and I respond (inwardly) out of proportion to what her behavior warrants. She isn't ill-willed, nor does she kill cats or something unforgivable like that. She is just an average irritating person. What I question is...why do I react with such inner venom and what can I do about it? As I said, I have tried every strategy I know, but my anger seems to be intensifying rather than decreasing. I try to "switch perspectives" and see her as God sees her, but apparently she grates on God's nerves, as well When she calls, God's teeth clench.

You implied that you believe in demons? If I did, I'd be convinced that one has taken possession of me. This is why I don't consider demons because I have a neurotic streak (I can hear you saying...."duh") and, with my imagination, I'd start seeing a demon in my coffee cup or something like that.

Your comment about me possibly needing guidance is right on target. It would be soooo cool to have someone counsel me. Given this post, you may find it hard to believe, but I am very good at helping others, especially those who are suffering. I have six needy people (including the one who irritates me) who are are eager to talk to me about the issues they are facing because they value my observations. I worry that they are becoming too dependent on me. I know I must sound like I have an ego investment in this role, and it must be true to some degree, but I outgrew those needs years ago and now it just pleases me to serve them. I mean, what's the point of life?

I think I am going to stick to Catholicism and find me some poor priest who will listen to me go on and on and he will have uncharitable thoughts about me and try all sorts of techniques to help himself feel benevolent.

OMG! I just had an insight! I am acting exactly like the woman who irritates me! A self-righteous woman who is emoting all over the page and babbling with self-centered frenzy, asking for help, on a Forum in which she doesn't know anyone is rather irritating, is it not?.

Now, thanks to this forum and several insightful comments, I don't need a priest or a therapist or a guru! I'm fixed! I am sure of it! As a matter of fact, I am going to call Ms. Formerly Irritating right now to prove to myself I have reached a higher plane of existence. Yah!

I will let you know how it goes. I am sure your are breathless with anticipation.

Gads, this is a long post. With one interruption, I wrote it in about ten minutes. It is a stream of consciousness type thing. Or...maybe a stream of unconsciousness.

So thanks! I feel better. I haven't reached the point of kissing a leper, but maybe I can chat without feigned sincerity to a woman who irritates me. I mean...used to irritate me.

 

[saralynn]

I agree.

I can't understand what he wrote so I don't know if I agree with it or not.

Ram Dass never mentioned anything like this! Neither did the Dalai Lama or that other guy from Vietnam on the best seller list. Or Pemi Chodrin.

Hmmm. Let me redefine myself....I am not occasionally a Buddhist; I am occasionally a shallow Buddhist.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I am very interested in mysticism, which is why I describe myself as a Catholic-Buddhist-Sufi-Jewish-Hindu Quaker. The core of the mystical experience in many different religions involves peace and joy etc. I mean, someone who has a revelation of "God", in whatever form it takes. never concludes that God is Strife, Hatred, Cruelty and Deceit.

I have always longed for a mystical encounter with that Holy "Something" that others have encountered but it seems not to be my fate, so I have stumbled along in my quest for Enlightenment, hoping (yep, and praying) that my quest is not a hope, a dream and an illusion.

My religious experiences have always been ambiguous. Moments of grace, which might be coincidence, and fleeting feelings of "oneness"

I am beginning to think the key to mysticism is the commitment to Free Will, even if it is only called grit and determination. However, despite my efforts, I am still hounded by my baser impulses, even though I don't act on them. Sometimes I wonder if Enlightenment really exists.

Hi Sara. All my life I was opposed to religion except for my childhood as a Catholic. I believed it was superstitious nonsense. I wasn't longing for a mystical experience but I wanted to prove that it was nothing but a myth and religious people were all brain washed.

One day I came across people who seemed 'normal', well balanced and intelligent yet they had mystical beliefs. This set the cat amongst the pidgeons and I couldn't rest until I proved to them it was all nonsense and make believe.

With intent to ridicule, defame and disprove these stupid superstitions, I began investigating their books. One day I was studying and suddenly a strange sensation came over me.

No words can describe what took place. Against my wish, against my intentions I was overcome by an overwhelming mystical experience that announced to me that I had discovered something unthinkable. An indescribable joy and holy ecstasy seized me.

For days I could not go out as I would have been seen as mentally ill. So filled was i by a Holy Spirit, a beauty I cannot describe that it is with me to this day.

If I was not searching yet given this gift, then those who sincerely search will surely be granted it.

It is real but one must be worthy to receive this gift. I was told I must have performed some deed that was ordained by God to guide him/her to the truth. I have never worked out what possible deed I could have performed to receive this blessing.

But if you are sincere, you will be guided by God.

Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth.

 

[Vinayaka]

I can't understand what he wrote so I don't know if I agree with it or not.

Ram Dass never mentioned anything like this! Neither did the Dalai Lama or that other guy from Vietnam on the best seller list. Or Pemi Chodrin.

Hmmm. Let me redefine myself....I am not occasionally a Buddhist; I am occasionally a shallow Buddhist.

He's just saying that near the end of the journey you need a living Guru who has gone that way before.
Although the stories (and beliefs) are out there to the contrary, most dharmic faiths believe you need a Guru's guidance. It's like Edmund Hillary needing his sherpa guides.

 

[Aupmanyav]

True, but no surprise for those Vaishnavas who consider Buddha to be a ninth avatar of Vishnu.

Yeah, no surprise of other Hindus too who consider Buddha to be an avatara of Lord Vishnu.

I differ a bit. I consider 'avataraship' of Buddha as something of a Nobel prize in religion. That is how Hindus tried to honor him. He has been and will be the only recipient of such an honor.