Entitlements?

[Alceste]

I believe everyone should have to pay something and many should pay more.

Then we agree! It's a miracle!

 

[Random]

Ego and possession. The "I" gets it in its head that it owns things --a brain, a body, a thought. Self-worth is born, the idea that the self has worth, found in having things. "Life" gave them to it; "nature" gave them to it; "god" gave them to it --so it must be worthy of these things (self-worth extrapolated to a giver). And because some of them are inalienable (cannot be taken away), it is special for having certain things given it. De-serving is being served (life... on a platter...).

My inner child is complaining of a headache after reading this. It wants life on a platter.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I believe that all willing and able-bodied people should be able to find work that pays a livable wage. Something is very wrong when people can work 50, 60 and even 70 hours a week and still be stuck in a "bills or food" situation.
Education should also be free. A good education is one of the greatest tools in fighting poverty, and many remain in poverty because they simply cannot afford an education. I also believe it should have similar restrictions to the financial aid programs we have now.
And people need shelter, it's a very basic need along with food and water.
But for medical care, people deserve to be healthy, and medical cost certainly should never cause financial ruin. Basic care needs like vaccines and anti-biotics, surgeries that are necessary, and emergency care should be free. No one should be financially burdened because they got sick, injured their knee, or had a heart attack. However elective procedures should cost. The cost of a boob job or liposuction should be fronted by only the person getting it.

 

[Magic Man]

Good for you Matt. If your paying any federal income tax at all, you most likely are paying your fair share.

The top 10% of Americans pay 70% of the taxes. I believe they are paying their fair share as well.

That top 10% also makes about 48% of the income in the country. The total personal income in America is about $10 trillion. The total federal income tax revenue is about $1.2 trillion.

That means the average 10%-er makes about $436,000, and pays about $77,000.
The average other 90%-er makes about $52,000, and pays about $3,480 in taxes.

So, after taxes the 10%-er makes about $360,000, and the 90%-er makes about $48,500.

All I am saying is, it is very hypocritical to expect someone else to solve all the problems for everyone else. We all need to roll our sleeves up and do more, all of us.

And who is expecting someone else to solve all the problems for everyone else? Certainly not me, and certainly not the Occupy people or liberals in general. So who is?

Until every American gets their oar in the water and starts rowing, we will go nowhere.

Until every American realizes that every American already has their oar in the water and is rowing, we will go nowhere.

Surely you don't expect one person out of a hundred to fix everything while the other 99 sit on their butts do you?

Of course not. No one does. That's a gross mischaracterization of the demands being made. What we're asking for is for the rich to pay taxes at a rate they used to last decade and in decades before that. We're asking for government to stop coddling the rich. We're asking for the country to go back to having a real middle class with good opportunities for people. We're asking to stop this nonsense of the top 1%'s income going up at 7 times the rate of the middle class's.

Basically we're asking for the government to start working for the people again, rather than for the rich and corporations. But if it makes you feel better, go ahead and keep mischaracterizing it as anything that'll allow you to dismiss it.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Basically we're asking for the government to start working for the people again, rather than for the rich and corporations. But if it makes you feel better, go ahead and keep mischaracterizing it as anything that'll allow you to dismiss it.

I'm not dismissing anything Matt, quit trying to demonise me and lets start discussing substance.

You want to have more prosperity for our country, let's start making things again here in the good ol U.S.A.

The problem is, Americans like cheap stuff, not good stuff.

We can make the best products, but we cannot compete around the globe making the cheapest products.

How do you pay a living wage and comply with all the regulations we have here AND make stuff cheaper than polluting factories using child labor?

If you really want to be more European and have the benefits that many socialised countries have, we will also have to be more isolationist like they are as well.

You Sir, want your cake and eat it too.

 

[Magic Man]

You want to have more prosperity for our country, let's start making things again here in the good ol U.S.A.

The problem is, Americans like cheap stuff, not good stuff.

No, the problem is that it's cheaper to make stuff and import it than it is to make it here. All we have to do is make it more expensive to import stuff or to send jobs overseas. Everyone wants the cheaper product as long as it's decent. That part's not going to change. I agree that we need to start producing stuff here again, but the answer is to encourage companies to keep jobs here and to encourage people to buy American by making it financially more appealing.

If you really want to be more European and have the benefits that many socialised countries have, we will also have to be more isolationist like they are as well.

In what way?

You Sir, want your cake and eat it too.

OK, I was ignoring the first part of your post, but you can't say "quit trying to demonise me and lets start discussing substance." and then say something like the above.

I don't want to have my cake and eat it too. I want the rich and corporations to pay their fair share of taxes and not be catered to by the government. I also want more jobs to stay here and more production to be done here, and I've explained how that could be made possible, not that this has anything to do with my last post.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Matt, we have to bring jobs back that already left town if you want to get everyone working again. We have to tax imports like other successfully employed countries do.

You don't see Chinese crap flooding Germany do you?

If you closed down the sea ports for just one year, anyone who wanted a job would have a job and anyone who was good at their job would be receiving more offers than they could consider.

 

[Magic Man]

Matt, we have to bring jobs back that already left town if you want to get everyone working again. We have to tax imports like other successfully employed countries do.

You don't see Chinese crap flooding Germany do you?

If you closed down the sea ports for just one year, anyone who wanted a job would have a job and anyone who was good at their job would be receiving more offers than they could consider.

Did you not read what I just wrote?

 

[Reverend Rick]

I agree that we need to start producing stuff here again, but the answer is to encourage companies to keep jobs here and to encourage people to buy American by making it financially more appealing.

Financially more appealing = cheaper. How do you pay your help more and comply to regulations your competition ignores and expect to compete?

If we want to keep the unemployment rate at 9.1%, we need to hope companies stay here so we can keep the jobs we currently have.

You either have to beat the competition or eliminate them.

To beat them you have to have a level playing field right?

 

[Magic Man]

Financially more appealing = cheaper. How do you pay your help more and comply to regulations your competition ignores and expect to compete?

Did you not read what I wrote in my last few posts?

 

[Kathryn]

Somebody has to pay. Ain't no free lunch. These benefits are very expensive.

I believe in a progressive tax system, but I also believe that if one is going to TAKE from the system, they need to be giving into the system, if at all able.

I know that's a simplistic answer, but a lot can be built on those concepts.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Somebody has to pay. Ain't no free lunch. These benefits are very expensive.

I believe in a progressive tax system, but I also believe that if one is going to TAKE from the system, they need to be giving into the system, if at all able.

I know that's a simplistic answer, but a lot can be built on those concepts.

The icing on the cake for me is when people who pay zero federal income tax or in some cases receive a check and get paid more than they put in, complain about others who, "do not pay their fair share.

 

[Revoltingest]

If Herman Cain can float his 999 plan, then I have my 20-20-20 plan.....

Every adult is handed $20K per year by Uncle Sam.
Every person pays a flat 20% income tax, with no personal deductions.
The tax code can't be longer than will fit on 20 pages.

Notes:
A corporation is effectively a collection of people who are taxpayers, so all dividends will not be taxed again when received by shareholders.
Capital gains are reduced by accumulated inflation.

 

[Magic Man]

Somebody has to pay. Ain't no free lunch. These benefits are very expensive.

I believe in a progressive tax system, but I also believe that if one is going to TAKE from the system, they need to be giving into the system, if at all able.

I know that's a simplistic answer, but a lot can be built on those concepts.

Then we're in full agreement. So, since the people who are at all able are already paying, then I guess we're OK, right?

 

[Magic Man]

The icing on the cake for me is when people who pay zero federal income tax or in some cases receive a check and get paid more than they put in, complain about others who, "do not pay their fair share.

Um...yeah, I'm not seeing a problem here. Someone making $20,000 paying 20% of his income in payroll taxes, Social Security tax, Medicare, excise, sales, state and local taxes, but not paying federal income tax because they make $20,000 has every right to complain about the guy making $2 million a year who's paying 30% of his income in taxes including federal income tax, when 30 years ago that guy would have been paying 40+%.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Um...yeah, I'm not seeing a problem here. Someone making $20,000 paying 20% of his income in payroll taxes, Social Security tax, Medicare, excise, sales, state and local taxes, but not paying federal income tax because they make $20,000 has every right to complain about the guy making $2 million a year who's paying 30% of his income in taxes including federal income tax, when 30 years ago that guy would have been paying 40+%.

Ah yes, but 20 years ago the guy making 20 grand woud have been paying federal income tax back then too, right?

They both are paying less now.

 

[Magic Man]

Ah yes, but 20 years ago the guy making 20 grand woud have been paying federal income tax back then too, right?

Not if he was making the equivalent of $20,000 then, no.

They both are paying less now.

No, they aren't. The top 1%'s after-tax income has risen 275% in the past 30 years. The guy making $20,000 has seen his after-tax income rise about 20% in that same time period, as in he hasn't even kept up with inflation.

 

[Reverend Rick]

No, they aren't. The top 1%'s after-tax income has risen 275% in the past 30 years. The guy making $20,000 has seen his after-tax income rise about 20% in that same time period, as in he hasn't even kept up with inflation.

Nobody pays anyone more than their worth for very long or they go broke.

The top 1% is worth every penny where the 20,000 dollar guy is lucky to even have a job. If this person is so under paid, why not find a better job, learn a trade or go back to school and make something of themselves instead of expecting to be a mediocre employee making excellent pay?

 

[Alceste]

Nobody pays anyone more than their worth for very long or they go broke.

The top 1% is worth every penny where the 20,000 dollar guy is lucky to even have a job. If this person is so under paid, why not find a better job, learn a trade or go back to school and make something of themselves instead of expecting to be a mediocre employee making excellent pay?

Whoah, man. You honestly believe the inherent value of a billionaire's life is tens of millions of times that of an employee in the service industry? Don't let that get around to the people who fix your sandwiches if you know what's good for you.

Personally, I think that is an insane attitude. What have the likes of Bernie Madoff and the Enron crew done for you lately that has made you so idolatrous?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The icing on the cake for me is when people who pay zero federal income tax or in some cases receive a check and get paid more than they put in, complain about others who, "do not pay their fair share.

The problem is though is there are alot of people who simply don't make enough to have to pay. I know one family who is so poor they don't even have taxes deducted from their work checks. It's not they are lazy and leaching off the system, the problem is finding a good enough income. My own parents even used to be in that situation until my dad landed a job at Chrysler. Myself the best paying job I've ever held only payed $15,000 a year, which means I have always gotten a refund check at tax time. I typically get about $1,000 back, but I also claim 0 and pay extra per check.
What seems unfair is demanding those who can barely afford to raise a family to take cuts from benefits they often need to survive, and more taxes on top of it while the wealthiest and large corporations aren't expected to pay a cent more in their own taxes, or even just ONE cent at all. We don't just need jobs, we need livable wages.