Ephesians verses that possibly contradicts Mormon beliefs

[MissMe]

Not meaning to start an argument, just looking for answers.

Ephesians 2: 8-9 KJV

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.



Isn't it a belief of Latter Day Saints that it is through our works that we achieve salvation?


Insight would be appreciated.


MM

 

[*Paul*]

Not meaning to start an argument, just looking for answers.

Ephesians 2: 8-9 KJV

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.



Isn't it a belief of Latter Day Saints that it is through our works that we achieve salvation?


Insight would be appreciated.


MM

I think they believe works are an important part of reaching salvation but even salvation means something a bit different to what it does to Protestants.So they claim to agree with the beautiful scripture you posted whilst at the same time will say that Paul does not limit salvation to grace alone.

But there are plenty of them on here or at least there used to be who can answer this question for you.

 

[Watchmen]

We believe that we are saved through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The first principle of the gospel is faith in Him and in His promise of salvation. It is through Him alone that we have the assurance that we can be reconciled to our Father in Heaven.

Ephesians 2 explains how great our Savior's love is. He was under no obligation to take upon Himself our sins, to suffer and to die so that we might live. It was a gift given to us out of his great love for us. On the other hand, while we ARE saved by grace, and while that grace is a gift, nowhere in the Bible does it say that this is a gift to be given indiscriminately. A number of scriptures indicate that it is a gift offered only to those whom the Savior chooses. According to Hebrews 5:9, Jesus Christ, being perfect, “became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” Or as Christ Himself put it, it is “he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven” who will ultimately be saved (Matthew 7:21).

We must have faith in Christ. That's the first step, and it's impossible to proceed to the second (repentence) without having taken the first. What does it mean, though, to have faith in Christ? It is our belief that a person can't truly have faith in Christ unless he is faithful to Christ. I think that's what James meant when he said, “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:20-24)

I guess you could say that we believe we are saved by faith in Christ -- but it must be a living faith, as evidenced by our obedience to him.

Here you go.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Not meaning to start an argument, just looking for answers.

Ephesians 2: 8-9 KJV

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.



Isn't it a belief of Latter Day Saints that it is through our works that we achieve salvation?


Insight would be appreciated.


MM

It is true that we are saved by grace. There is now way possible that we can "earn" our salvation. Salvation is a gift from God through the atonement of Jesus Christ. It is only because of his grace that we are able to repent. Works are the fruit of God in our lives. When we truly humble ourselves before him and repent and seek to do his will, his spirit will enter into our hearts and into our lives. We will want to keep his commandments and follow the example Jesus set for us. Works are the result, the fruit. They don't really have any saving power. However, someone who has evil fruit will not be able to be exalted. A bitter fountain cannot bring forth pure water. A rotten tree cannot bring forth pure fruit. Paul put it this way: "Shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee myhttp://scriptures.lds.org/en/james/2/18a faith by my works."

 

[doppelganger]

Isn't it a belief of Latter Day Saints that it is through our works that we achieve salvation?

That's a belief of almost every mainstream Christian sect. That's the whole idea behind "free will" being an element of salvation. "Salvation by faith" - when coupled with the notion of "free will" - is still salvation by a "work" (in this case the incantation of certain magic words to "accept" Jesus's sacrifice by faith).

 

[Halcyon]

I think that St. Paul was simply pointing out that God can save and condemn who He wills, regardless of works.

Notice that he says specifically "lest a man be boastful".
He's saying that a man can do all the good works in the world, but if he does so only to make himself look superior and to have something to boast about, what kind of man is he really? God knows, and perhaps God makes his judgements as much on intent as He does on action - Jesus suggests as much in Matt 5:28.

But we also shouldn't forget Matt 7:18-20;
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Which suggests that those who do evil works will be condemned, and so via inferrence that those who perform good works will be judged well.

And then in the verse straight after, Matt 7:21;
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So, praising God isn't enough, you need to also do his will, which was stated by Jesus in Mark 12:30-31;
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
There is no commandment greater than these.

Loving your neighbour as yourself requires acts of compassion, kindness and charity.

So there you go, while God saves those whom He wishes, He also expects you to perform good acts because otherwise;
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Done and done.

 

[doppelganger]

I think that St. Paul was simply pointing out that God can save and condemn who He wills, regardless of works.

I read Paul, in context of the rest of his writings, to mean that the desire to orient one's being around a profound sense of oneness with existence and with others comes about by aesthetic impulses that one cannot consciously will one's self to have. The "faith" and "works" debate is a false dichotomy created out of the confusion that comes of approaching Christianity as a matter of achieving one's personal salvation.

 

[Halcyon]

I read Paul, in context of the rest of his writings, to mean that the desire to orient one's being around a profound sense of oneness with existence and with others comes about by aesthetic impulses that one cannot consciously will one's self to have. The "faith" and "works" debate is a false dichotomy created out of the confusion that comes of approaching Christianity as a matter of achieving one's personal salvation.

Hmmm, if I'm reading you right you're saying that rather than a good tree bearing good fruit, that good fruit is necessary to yield a good tree???

 

[doppelganger]

Hmmm, if I'm reading you right you're saying that rather than a good tree bearing good fruit, that good fruit is necessary to yield a good tree???

Right. You don't judge the fruit by the tree. You know the tree by its fruit.

 

[Dunemeister]

This entire discussion misconstrues "work" as it appears in Paul. In Paul, "work" does not refer to good things you do to impress God (or for any other purpose for that matter). "Work" is shorthand for "works of the Law", which, for Paul, denote those particular ceremonies, rites, and behaviors that were intended to mark out the Jews as the special covenant people of God. The works were not done to earn God's favor; rather, they signalled one's participation in the covenant community of God. So, for Jews of Jesus' and Paul's day, it was important to study Torah as much as possible, to get circumcised and keep the feasts and kosher laws. These were the works of the law that demonstrated one was a Jew rather than a Gentile sinner.

So what was a group of Jews to do when their Jewish movement started admitting Gentiles? Well, some of them said that these new Gentile converts had to observe the works of the law. They had to get circumcised, keep the kosher laws, observe the festivals, etc. Paul and other liberals insisted that these burdens should not be placed upon Gentiles. Rather, he was at pains to point out that one's status as "member of the convenant people of God" was a gift of God, not a matter of performing these or other rituals. Thus we are saved (i.e., part of the covenant community of God) by grace through faith.

The use of the word "works" to mean any act of moral value (good or bad) appears in the book of James, where James says "But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith." Most commentators agree that James has this more generalized notion of "works" going on here. But then again, he's not talking about what Paul was talking about either. James is saying that authentic faith produces a transformation of character, which in turn changes one's behavior and priorities. He is condemning those who would presume to continue in sin after having "come to faith."

To sum up: In Paul, "works" are signs of covenant membership, and he argues that the Jewish signs are not binding on Gentiles who enter the Church. In James, "works" are deeds done in response to faith. Those deeds vindicate one's claim to having faith. The absence of those works belies a claim to having faith in Jesus. As John said "Anyone who says he has faith in [Jesus] must walk as Jesus walked."

 

[Dunemeister]

Hmmm, if I'm reading you right you're saying that rather than a good tree bearing good fruit, that good fruit is necessary to yield a good tree???

No. The tree is KNOWN by its fruit. If you eat a foul fruit, you know the tree it came from was foul. If the fruit is sweet, then so was the tree.

 

[doppelganger]

These were the works of the law that demonstrated one was a Jew rather than a Gentile sinner.

Correct - though I disagree to one extent - pleasing "God" is one reason for works of the law.

Works under the law has been replaced in Christian sects almost completely with works embodied by professions of faith, which serve the exact same purpose - pleasing God and setting up an imaginary scheme by which outsiders are judged to be the unsaved.

 

[Dunemeister]

Correct - though I disagree to one extent - pleasing "God" is one reason for works of the law.

Works under the law has been replaced in Christian sects almost completely with works embodied by professions of faith, which serve the exact same purpose - pleasing God and setting up an imaginary scheme by which outsiders are judged to be the unsaved.

May I suggest a source that may help? As you may know, I'm a huge fan of the Anglican theologian, Bishop N. T. Wright. His book The New Testamant and the People of God deals with this subject in some depth. He tackles the problem with excellent historical and theological methodology. He shows fairly decisively that the Jews didn't perform "works of the law" to please God. Or, if pleasing God were a reason for a Jew (or some of them) to do those works, that would mean that that Jew didn't understand her theology. According to the Jewish religion of Paul's day, the works of the law and pleasing God were two entirely different issues. The theologians of the day did not affirm the view that one did works to please God. They would have laughed that idea out of the room. Rather, pleasing God is a matter of loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and your neighbor as yourself.

 

[doppelganger]

Rather, pleasing God is a matter of loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and your neighbor as yourself.

But that would make Paul's admonishment (and the Christian revelation) completely superfluous. I don't disagree that the purpose of the law was to "love God" and "love your neighbor," but that was not what it was regularly understood to mean, nor how it was practiced. It was concretized as a series of practices that themselves were carried out to please God. Hence, all the stories in the Gospels about Jesus admonishing the Jewish religious leaders of his day, and line after line in the genuine Pauline epistles about how love supersedes the obligations imposed under the law.

And ironically, following the law to please God, which the Jews did (that's what those money changers were helping people do in the Temple), has been replaced in mainstream Christianity with maintaining right belief and in the proper words and ideas and right practices in the right liturgy to please God, with all that "love God and love your neighbor" stuff taking the back seat just as it did with the Jewish religious establishment of Paul's time. The more people change, the more they stay the same.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Evangelical Christianity teaches that good works are the result of having faith.

Mormonism teaches that there are requirements to having a testimony of Mormon teachings. One has to prove himself worthy of more understanding and a stronger testimony. Without the obedience to the required works, the Holy Spirit withdraws. Without obedience to a Celestial Law, the person cannot have salvation/exaltation.


Below I will list some of the quotes that explain these teachings:


"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23


"The phrase 'after all we can do' teaches that effort is required on our part to receive the fulness of the Lord’s grace and be made worthy to dwell with Him.

(Adapted from True to the Faith: A Gospel Reference, which you can read online at LDS.org in the Gospel Library.)


"The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to the divine help and strength we receive through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ."
- "What’s Up?,” New Era, August 2007, p. 38–39



"The Spirit of the Lord can be our guide and will bless us with direction, instruction, and spiritual protection during our mortal journey. We invite the Holy Ghost into our lives through meaningful personal and family prayer, feasting upon the words of Christ, diligent and exacting obedience, faithfulness and honoring of covenants, and through virtue, humility, and service. And we steadfastly should avoid things that are immodest, coarse, crude, sinful, or evil that cause us to withdraw ourselves from the Holy Ghost."
- David A. Bednar, “That We May Always Have His Spirit to Be with Us,” Ensign, May 2006, 28–31


"Remember that 'the Spirit of the Lord doth not dwell in unholy temples' (Helaman 4:24). Even though you have received the gift of the Holy Ghost, the Spirit will dwell with you only when you keep the commandments. He will withdraw if you offend Him by profanity, uncleanliness, disobedience, rebellion, or other sins. Keep yourself clean. Fill your life with goodness so you can be worthy of the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost."
- “Holy Ghost,” True to the Faith, (2004), p. 81–84


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]“If you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you.”[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica](D&C 78:7).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"That through his atonement, and by obedience to the principles of the gospel, mankind might be saved." (Doctrine & Covenants 138:4)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"The Atonement is real. As you steadily do the things the Lord would have you do, a change will occur in you, and Satan's ability to lead you into the things that will destroy you and bring misery to you will become lessened."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]— Henry B. Eyring, "Surrender to Christ," Ricks College Devotional, 21 September 1993[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]LDSCN - The LDS Daily WOOL Archive© - Atonement[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Doctrine & Covenants 76[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given— [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Each person who earns eternal life by obedience to the commandments (or laws and ordinances) will need a glorified resurrected body. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]- Rachel Woods, Do Latter-day Saints Believe We are Saved by Faith or Works? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]About.com[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"The Doctrine and Covenants teaches that all blessings are predicated upon laws and that if we desire a particular blessing, we must abide by the law that guarantees the blessing. If we do not conform to the bounds and conditions of a law, we are not justified in receiving the blessings associated with it. This theme is repeated again and again in the Doctrine and Covenants (see D&C 82:10; 88:38–39; 130:20–21; 132:5).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"God has said that no one can come unto Him except by His laws. If we receive and obey His laws, then we will come to know God and become like Him, thus having eternal life." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]- Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, Enrichment Section G, p. 394[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Each individual must comply with the requirements, first, by converting to Mormonism, and second, by accepting membership into the LDS church:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"All of our efforts of proclaiming the gospel, perfecting the saints, and redeeming the dead lead to the holy temple. THIS IS BECAUSE THE TEMPLE ORDINANCES ARE ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL; we cannot return to God's presence without them. I encourage everyone to worthily attend the temple or to work toward the day when you can enter that holy house to receive your ordinances and covenants."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]- President Howard W. Hunter, "Follow the Son of God," Ensign, Nov. 1994, p. 87-88[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"And again, every person who belongeth to this church of Christ, shall observe to keep all the commandments and covenants of the church. " (D&C 42:78)[/FONT]

 

[Watchmen]

You don't understand the spirit of our teachings.

It is by grace we are saved. Nothing we can do will save us - only the grace of God brought about by the Savior Jesus Christ. As for "works" - "faith without works is dead, being alone." We do works not to be saved, but because we seek to exercise our faith by doing the will of the Lord. In the end, it's not because of these works that we are saved, but because God chooses to save us. We don't "earn" anything. Salvation is a gift.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

You don't understand the spirit of our teachings. It is by grace we are saved. Nothing we can do will save us - only the grace of God brought about by the Savior Jesus Christ.

If you claim that I don't understand Mormonism, you do not understand my post. Would you care to tell me which of the quotes is wrong?
Would you care to define "grace?" It is certainly not the same definition as the evangelical Christian definition.

As for "works" - "faith without works is dead, being alone." We do works not to be saved, but because we seek to exercise our faith by doing the will of the Lord.

I don't believe I said anything at all about an individual's motive in doing works. Nor can you speak for the motive of every individual who has been baptized into the LDS church. Or can you? Can you say that no LDS person keeps the LDS commandments in order to have the blessing associated with the keeping of that commandment?

There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated�
And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. (Doctrine & Covenants 130:20-21)

In the end, it's not because of these works that we are saved, but because God chooses to save us. We don't "earn" anything. Salvation is a gift.

Are you teaching non-LDS and other LDS besides yourself that one does not have to keep his temple covenants in order to receive the blessing of salvation/exaltation?

Do you deny that obedience to one's covenants made at baptism and in the LDS temple is required in order to obtain eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom? Does a person not have to abide a Celestial Law to inherit the Celestial Kingdom?

Will there be some who are saved to the Celestial Kingdom who do not keep the Celestial laws?

 

[Katzpur]

ἀλήθεια, it sounds like you're saying there is no reward for obedience to God's commandments. If I'm reading you correctly, I'd need to see some scriptural support for this in order to accept it.

 

[Watchmen]

If you claim that I don't understand Mormonism, you do not understand my post. Would you care to tell me which of the quotes is wrong?
Would you care to define "grace?" It is certainly not the same definition as the evangelical Christian definition.




I don't believe I said anything at all about an individual's motive in doing works. Nor can you speak for the motive of every individual who has been baptized into the LDS church. Or can you? Can you say that no LDS person keeps the LDS commandments in order to have the blessing associated with the keeping of that commandment?

There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated�
And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. (Doctrine & Covenants 130:20-21)




Are you teaching non-LDS and other LDS besides yourself that one does not have to keep his temple covenants in order to receive the blessing of salvation/exaltation?

Do you deny that obedience to one's covenants made at baptism and in the LDS temple is required in order to obtain eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom? Does a person not have to abide a Celestial Law to inherit the Celestial Kingdom?

Will there be some who are saved to the Celestial Kingdom who do not keep the Celestial laws?

I'll simplify it for you. We can do all the works we want - in the end, God will save whom he saves. It is a gift he is free to give or take away. Our works don't qualify us for salvation. We don't earn grace - it is given.

Do we go to the temple? Do we keep the commandments? YES.

But these works don't qualify us for grace. We are given grace because God chooses to give it.

Now - what do you think of Katzpur's question?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I'll simplify it for you. We can do all the works we want - in the end, God will save whom he saves. It is a gift he is free to give or take away. Our works don't qualify us for salvation. We don't earn grace - it is given.

Are you saying that if a good Latter-day Saint meets all the requirements for eternal life, he may have done it all for nothing? Is that what your church teaches? That's incredulous!

When you receive any blessing from God, it is only by your own obedience to the law upon which that blessing is predicated, but God won't necessarily bless you for your obedience?

Do we go to the temple?

Only worthy LDS can go to the temple and not all of them go.

Do we keep the commandments? YES.

Do LDS actually keep all the commandments?

But these works don't qualify us for grace. We are given grace because God chooses to give it.

Does God withhold the blessing you have earned by obedience to the law upon which that blessing is predicated? Does God choose to bless those who don't obey the law upon which the blessing is predicated?

"When we keep His commandments, which is our duty to do, He immediately blesses us."
- W. Rolfe Kerr, "Parables of Jesus: The Unprofitable Servant," Ensign, October 2003, 47.

Are there any requirements for eternal life other than faith in Christ? For instance, should one keep the Law of Sacrifice?