Ephesians verses that possibly contradicts Mormon beliefs

[ἀλήθεια]

That's right. And if Baptists agreed with Catholics, they would convert to Catholicism. If Episcopalians agreed with Pentacostals, they'd become Pentacostal.

It might make you feel better if I were to say that I don't believe those verses to be true, but it wouldn't be honest of me to say that. I do believe them -- every single one of them.

This discussion is not about making someone feel better.

Yes, LDS love to give the impression that there is very little difference between LDS beliefs and Protestant beliefs. But the truth is that our doctrines oppose one another's.

Do we? You're saying that we intentionally misrepresent our own beliefs then? I think that most of us are willing to admit that differences do exist between our faiths. On the other hand, I don't see anything to be gained by either of us trying to widen the gap.

The gap exists because our beliefs are vastly different. That is what the gap is. I'm not trying to widen the gap.

Personally, I prefer to acknowledge honest differences of opinion while trying to find common ground. You may not believe that any common ground exists, but I do.

[/quote]

This thread is about Ephesians 2:8-9.

Yes, they did,

Who are "they?"

but these words don't mean that every doctrine taught by every non-LDS Christian denomination is false. We believe that much of what other Churches teach is true,

Which doctrines do evangelicals and LDS have in common?

and we don't go around claiming that we're the only Christians.

You mean LDS no longer claim that they are the only Christians. However, LDS still believe that all other churches lack authority; that all other churches are apostate; that no other churches have enough truth pertaining to salvation/eternal life. That there are several requirements to be met in order to have eternal life. LDS claim that only LDS can have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.

For the most part, non-LDS Christians are much more exclusionary towards us than we are towards them.

I totally disagree.

 

[Katzpur]

Which doctrines do evangelicals and LDS have in common?

Well, for starters, we both believe in a Father in Heaven who loves us enough to have sent His Only Begotten Son to earth to pay the price for our sins. We believe that our Savior was born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, taught a gospel that emphasized love for one's fellow man, was crucified and then rose again on the third day. We both believe that there is no other means by which man can be reconciled to God. We both look forward with hope and faith in Jesus Christ, and believe that we will ultimately spend eternity in Heaven. Both of us love the Bible and believe it to be God's word. A great many Evangelicals use the KJV, as do the Mormons. Most Evangelicals and most Mormons have similar beliefs in terms of the kind of lifestyles we believe are acceptable to God. We believe He disapproves, for instance, of sexual relations outside of marriage, and of any kind of immoral behavior. To me, all of these similarities are significant. I rather suspect that you will take issue with them and will add a qualifying statement to each of them, such as, "Yes, but, the LDS believe..."

You mean LDS no longer claim that they are the only Christians.

We never have claimed that we were the only Christians.

However, LDS still believe that all other churches lack authority; that all other churches are apostate; that no other churches have enough truth pertaining to salvation/eternal life. That there are several requirements to be met in order to have eternal life. LDS claim that only LDS can have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.

That is essentially correct.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Well, for starters, we both believe in a Father in Heaven who loves us enough to have sent His Only Begotten Son to earth to pay the price for our sins.

The difference here is that evangelicals believe that Jesus absolutely reconciles us to God without our works(Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.), whereas LDS believe that being reconciled to God is contingent upon man's obedience to the laws and ordinances of the LDS church.



"There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God," (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188.)



Also, pertaining to God, LDS teach the following:

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)


Also, LDS have taught:

"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation." (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206.)

We believe that our Savior was born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, taught a gospel that emphasized love for one's fellow man, was crucified and then rose again on the third day.

We agree on some of this, but LDS claim that we evangelicals do not have the gospel:


"The true gospel was lost from the earth. Mormonism is its restoration," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 182-185.)

We both believe that there is no other means by which man can be reconciled to God.

A difference here is that the atonement of Christ in LDS teachings provides an opportunity for men to be saved, rather than actually reconciling man to God:


"We accept Christ's atonement by repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and obeying all of the commandments," (Gospel Principles, Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1979, pg. 68.)



"This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts" (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).

We both look forward with hope and faith in Jesus Christ, and believe that we will ultimately spend eternity in Heaven.

LDS may believe that they will spend eternity with Heavenly Father, but LDS teachings exclude those who reject Mormonism from spending eternity with Heavenly Father.

Both of us love the Bible and believe it to be God's word. A great many Evangelicals use the KJV, as do the Mormons.

LDS believe that men have tampered with the Bible and that it is true only as as far as translated correctly; they also believe 1 Nephi 13:29 "And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest�because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God�because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them."

Most Evangelicals and most Mormons have similar beliefs in terms of the kind of lifestyles we believe are acceptable to God. We believe He disapproves, for instance, of sexual relations outside of marriage, and of any kind of immoral behavior. To me, all of these similarities are significant. I rather suspect that you will take issue with them and will add a qualifying statement to each of them, such as, "Yes, but, the LDS believe..."

I don't take issue with the fact that morally as far as lifestyle there is little difference between us. I will point out that not all of what you list is doctrine. Remember, non-LDS are accused of "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (See Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith History, Chapter 1)

We never have claimed that we were the only Christians.

Read your history! And tell me that a people whose "creeds are an abomination to God" and who "teach for doctrines the commandments of men" are Christians.

 

[Katzpur]

ἀλήθεια, you win. We have nothing in common.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

ἀλήθεια, you win. We have nothing in common.

I wasn't aware that this was about winning nor did I know it was about what we do or do not have in common. I wanted to point out the differences in our views of salvation pertaining to Ephesians 2:8-9, and I asked which doctrines we held in common.

 

[danny vee]

ἀλήθεια, you win. We have nothing in common.

I'm not sure this should be about winning and losing. And besides, from following your debate, I can see that you have lots in common. You both believe in the same person to bring salvation, however, you do not believe in the same form of salvation. I think this debating over small parts of scriptures is a bit silly honestly. Does God want us to somehow figure out the exact single path, that is absolutely undebatable, and is to be found in a single verse in the Bible, written by man? I don't think so. The Bible, and Jesus' word should be seen as a whole. We are saved through love if nothing more. If we have love, faith and such, I really don't think those two verses matter at all. What matters more is convincing others that they don't matter, and giving knowledge to those without it (eg. satanists)

 

[Watchmen]

The difference here is that evangelicals believe that Jesus absolutely reconciles us to God without our works(Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.), whereas LDS believe that being reconciled to God is contingent upon man's obedience to the laws and ordinances of the LDS church.



"There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God," (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188.)



Also, pertaining to God, LDS teach the following:

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)


Also, LDS have taught:

"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation." (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206.)





We agree on some of this, but LDS claim that we evangelicals do not have the gospel:


"The true gospel was lost from the earth. Mormonism is its restoration," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 182-185.)






A difference here is that the atonement of Christ in LDS teachings provides an opportunity for men to be saved, rather than actually reconciling man to God:


"We accept Christ's atonement by repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and obeying all of the commandments," (Gospel Principles, Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1979, pg. 68.)



"This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts" (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).





LDS may believe that they will spend eternity with Heavenly Father, but LDS teachings exclude those who reject Mormonism from spending eternity with Heavenly Father.






LDS believe that men have tampered with the Bible and that it is true only as as far as translated correctly; they also believe 1 Nephi 13:29 "And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest�because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God�because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them."





I don't take issue with the fact that morally as far as lifestyle there is little difference between us. I will point out that not all of what you list is doctrine. Remember, non-LDS are accused of "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (See Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith History, Chapter 1)




Read your history! And tell me that a people whose "creeds are an abomination to God" and who "teach for doctrines the commandments of men" are Christians.

The way you frame our teachings is absolutely incorrect.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

The way you frame our teachings is absolutely incorrect.

You won't provide proof therefore I dismiss your accusation.

 

[Watchmen]

You won't provide proof therefore I dismiss your accusation.

We've explained our teachings.

You reject them then repost the same thing.

In other words, we've provided plenty...you dismiss what we provide...then claim we didn't provide anything. It's a common anti-Mormon tactic.

Are you anti-Mormon?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

We've explained our teachings.

You reject them then repost the same thing.

In other words, we've provided plenty...you dismiss what we provide...then claim we didn't provide anything. It's a common anti-Mormon tactic.

You have explained zilch. Katzpur at least carries on a conversation.

Are you anti-Mormon?

Definitely not!

 

[Watchmen]

You have explained zilch. Katzpur at least carries on a conversation.

I didn't say "I" and I didn't say "Katzpur." I said "We" - that refers to the collective LDS who have been posting responses to you.

Definitely not!

That's good to know. Hopefully you won't act like one either.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I didn't say "I" and I didn't say "Katzpur." I said "We" - that refers to the collective LDS who have been posting responses to you.

Which LDS have been responding to me?

 

[Watchmen]

Katzpur and I have both responded to you in this thread. I believe Scott C and others have responded to you in other threads.

Your pattern is to make a statement...get a response...reject the response...restate the statement...then say you never got a response.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Katzpur and I have both responded to you in this thread. I believe Scott C and others have responded to you in other threads.

Your pattern is to make a statement...get a response...reject the response...restate the statement...then say you never got a response.

No one at all has proven that anything I've posted is wrong. And if you want to talk about other threads, go to those threads to talk about them. Your pattern is to criticize the poster and never refute the quotes.

 

[Watchmen]

No one at all has proven that anything I've posted is wrong. And if you want to talk about other threads, go to those threads to talk about them. Your pattern is to criticize the poster and never refute the quotes.

On page 2 or 3 I explained our beliefs and explained you were framing our beliefs incorrectly.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

On page 2 or 3 I explained our beliefs and explained you were framing our beliefs incorrectly.

You are not an official spokesperson for your church, are you? So if you disagree with other LDS which ones ought we to listen to?

Well, you aren't willing to do anything other than make statements about LDS beliefs without any scripture or quotes from General Authorities, so I ought not to respond to your accusatory remarks. Have a nice day!

 

[DeepShadow]

No one at all has proven that anything I've posted is wrong. And if you want to talk about other threads, go to those threads to talk about them. Your pattern is to criticize the poster and never refute the quotes.

Okay, so let's deal with the quotes. First, snip out all the ones that aren't doctrinally binding. The only things that are doctrinally binding are the Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and official declarations.

I see most of your quotes come from other sources. Can you back these statements up with quotes from any of the above sources?

 

[DeepShadow]

So let's do a quick inventory of quotes, shall we?

"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23

This one's doctrine.

"The phrase 'after all we can do' teaches that effort is required on our part to receive the fulness of the Lord’s grace and be made worthy to dwell with Him.

(Adapted from True to the Faith: A Gospel Reference, which you can read online at LDS.org in the Gospel Library.)

Not doctrine.

"The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to the divine help and strength we receive through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ."
- "What’s Up?,” New Era, August 2007, p. 38–39

Not doctrine.

"The Spirit of the Lord can be our guide and will bless us with direction, instruction, and spiritual protection during our mortal journey. We invite the Holy Ghost into our lives through meaningful personal and family prayer, feasting upon the words of Christ, diligent and exacting obedience, faithfulness and honoring of covenants, and through virtue, humility, and service. And we steadfastly should avoid things that are immodest, coarse, crude, sinful, or evil that cause us to withdraw ourselves from the Holy Ghost."
- David A. Bednar, “That We May Always Have His Spirit to Be with Us,” Ensign, May 2006, 28–31

Not doctrine.

"Remember that 'the Spirit of the Lord doth not dwell in unholy temples' (Helaman 4:24). Even though you have received the gift of the Holy Ghost, the Spirit will dwell with you only when you keep the commandments. He will withdraw if you offend Him by profanity, uncleanliness, disobedience, rebellion, or other sins. Keep yourself clean. Fill your life with goodness so you can be worthy of the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost."
- “Holy Ghost,” True to the Faith, (2004), p. 81–84

Not doctrine.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]“If you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you.”[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica](D&C 78:7).[/FONT]

[/FONT]

Doctrine. That makes two so far.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"That through his atonement, and by obedience to the principles of the gospel, mankind might be saved." (Doctrine & Covenants 138:4)[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Doctrine. Three so far.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"The Atonement is real. As you steadily do the things the Lord would have you do, a change will occur in you, and Satan's ability to lead you into the things that will destroy you and bring misery to you will become lessened."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]— Henry B. Eyring, "Surrender to Christ," Ricks College Devotional, 21 September 1993[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]LDSCN - The LDS Daily WOOL Archive© - Atonement[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Not doctrine.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Doctrine & Covenants 76[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given— [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; [/FONT]

[/FONT]

Doctrine. 4 so far

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Each person who earns eternal life by obedience to the commandments (or laws and ordinances) will need a glorified resurrected body. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]- Rachel Woods, Do Latter-day Saints Believe We are Saved by Faith or Works? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]About.com[/FONT]

[/FONT]

Not doctrine.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"The Doctrine and Covenants teaches that all blessings are predicated upon laws and that if we desire a particular blessing, we must abide by the law that guarantees the blessing. If we do not conform to the bounds and conditions of a law, we are not justified in receiving the blessings associated with it. This theme is repeated again and again in the Doctrine and Covenants (see D&C 82:10; 88:38–39; 130:20–21; 132:5).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"God has said that no one can come unto Him except by His laws. If we receive and obey His laws, then we will come to know God and become like Him, thus having eternal life." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]- Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, Enrichment Section G, p. 394[/FONT]
[/FONT]

Not doctrine.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"All of our efforts of proclaiming the gospel, perfecting the saints, and redeeming the dead lead to the holy temple. THIS IS BECAUSE THE TEMPLE ORDINANCES ARE ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL; we cannot return to God's presence without them. I encourage everyone to worthily attend the temple or to work toward the day when you can enter that holy house to receive your ordinances and covenants."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]- President Howard W. Hunter, "Follow the Son of God," Ensign, Nov. 1994, p. 87-88[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Not doctrine.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"And again, every person who belongeth to this church of Christ, shall observe to keep all the commandments and covenants of the church. " (D&C 42:78)[/FONT]
[/FONT]

Doctrine! 5 total, out of...13 by my count. I will henceforth ignore the non-doctrinal quotes in my addresses to what you've already written. More to come....

 

[DeepShadow]

Now, into greater detail on the doctrinal quotes:

"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23

Okay, so this one seems like it's only a problem when coupled with the non-doctrinal quote that came after it. That's one of many interpretations, though, and I prefer to let the Spirit interpret, because when you try to reify scriptural ideas, they get misconstrued.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]“If you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you.”[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica](D&C 78:7).[/FONT]

[/FONT]


Okay, so this seems along the lines of "If ye love me, keep my commandments," and "He that hath my commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me," etc. If we love Him, we'll want to keep His commandments, and we'll also want to be with Him. Therefore, it makes sense to say, "If you want to be with me, keep my commandments."

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"That through his atonement, and by obedience to the principles of the gospel, mankind might be saved." (Doctrine & Covenants 138:4)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
Yes, this is in keeping with the writings of James and Paul. We show our faith through our works, but it's still grace that saves.[/FONT]

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Okay, so let's deal with the quotes. First, snip out all the ones that aren't doctrinally binding. The only things that are doctrinally binding are the Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and official declarations.

I see most of your quotes come from other sources. Can you back these statements up with quotes from any of the above sources?

This, then, becomes a problem of the LDS church teaching its members false doctrine without telling those members that what they are presenting is fiction. What is the point of presenting fiction/speculation as truth?