Ephesians verses that possibly contradicts Mormon beliefs

[ἀλήθεια]

ἀλήθεια, it sounds like you're saying there is no reward for obedience to God's commandments. If I'm reading you correctly, I'd need to see some scriptural support for this in order to accept it.

All Christians have eternal life. Why should we, as Christians, receive special rewards in heaven when we've obeyed God's commandments?

"So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do". (Luke 17:10)

 

[Watchmen]

Are you saying that if a good Latter-day Saint meets all the requirements for eternal life, he may have done it all for nothing? Is that what your church teaches? That's incredulous!

When you receive any blessing from God, it is only by your own obedience to the law upon which that blessing is predicated, but God won't necessarily bless you for your obedience?




Only worthy LDS can go to the temple and not all of them go.





Do LDS actually keep all the commandments?





Does God withhold the blessing you have earned by obedience to the law upon which that blessing is predicated? Does God choose to bless those who don't obey the law upon which the blessing is predicated?

"When we keep His commandments, which is our duty to do, He immediately blesses us."
- W. Rolfe Kerr, "Parables of Jesus: The Unprofitable Servant," Ensign, October 2003, 47.

Are there any requirements for eternal life other than faith in Christ? For instance, should one keep the Law of Sacrifice?

You continue to frame the belief incorrectly. You posit that we "earn" eternal life.

Regardless of what we do, it is only by the grace of God that we receive eternal life.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

You continue to frame the belief incorrectly. You posit that we "earn" eternal life.

Regardless of what we do, it is only by the grace of God that we receive eternal life.

You aren't answering any of my questions. Why is that? We can hardly call this a discussion or a debate if you don't respond to my questions.

Each person who earns eternal life by obedience to the commandments (or laws and ordinances) will need a glorified resurrected body.
- Rachel Woods, Do Latter-day Saints Believe We are Saved by Faith or Works?
About.com


Immortality connotes life without end. Eternal life, on the other hand, connotes quality of life — exaltation, the highest type of immortality, the kind of life enjoyed by God himself. It is in the attainment of eternal life, which man must earn in mortality, that he reaches his full potentiality.
- Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, at General Conference, October 1978, Ensign, November, 1978, p. 14

Individual salvation is "...that which man merits through his own acts
through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel."
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1 p. 134

Immortality has been accomplished by the Savior's sacrifice. Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men. This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us.
- Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 208

Requirements for Exaltation
The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32-34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, "In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and understanding of the truth; and 'live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God' " (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey his commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:


We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.

We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We must receive the temple endowment.

We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to--


Love and worship God.

Love our neighbor.

Repent of our wrongdoings.

Live the law of chastity.

Pay honest tithes and offerings.

Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.

Speak the truth always.

Obey the Word of Wisdom.

Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.

Keep the Sabbath day holy.

Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.

Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.

Have family and individual prayers every day.

Honor our parents.

Teach the gospel to others by word and example.

Study the scriptures.

Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow his direction in our individual lives.

- Gospel Principles, Exaltation, Chapter 47

 

[Katzpur]

All Christians have eternal life. Why should we, as Christians, receive special rewards in heaven when we've obeyed God's commandments?

Apparently you understand the term "eternal life" differently than we do. All human beings have eternal life in one sense. Jesus said He would judge every man according to his works. Greater faithfulness results in greater blessings.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Apparently you understand the term "eternal life" differently than we do. All human beings have eternal life in one sense.

According to evangelical Christian beliefs, eternal life is to live with God. It is a gift of God to all Christians.

According to your church's teachings all humans will have immortality. Only those who have met the requirements will have eternal life in the presence of God(the Heavenly Father).

Jesus said He would judge every man according to his works. Greater faithfulness results in greater blessings.

Yes, the works of some do not bring glory to God at all. They are not done for Him or to glorify Him. Saving faith is a work of Christ; it results in a man living a new life for the glory of God.

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philippians 1:6)

"But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me". (1 Corinthians 15:10)

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Galatians 2:20)

Every single Christian receives a full reward(every Christian is holy and without blame before him):

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." (Ephesians 1:3-6)

 

[Katzpur]

According to evangelical Christian beliefs, eternal life is to live with God. It is a gift of God to all Christians.

And everybody else goes to Hell, right?

According to your church's teachings all humans will have immortality. Only those who have met the requirements will have eternal life in the presence of God(the Heavenly Father).

That's correct.

Every single Christian receives a full reward(every Christian is holy and without blame before him).

And you would define "Christian" how?

 

[Scott C.]

Not meaning to start an argument, just looking for answers.

Ephesians 2: 8-9 KJV

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Isn't it a belief of Latter Day Saints that it is through our works that we achieve salvation?

The following 5 consecutive posts that I made in another thread represent what I believe on the subject of salvation, grace, and works. I addressed a similar issue in that thread and thought I would just give you a link, rather than try to say it here.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...cept-book-mormon-post1371441.html#post1371441

-Scott

 

[Watchmen]

You aren't answering any of my questions. Why is that? We can hardly call this a discussion or a debate if you don't respond to my questions.

There's no point in answering questions framed incorrectly. My responses to you are to demonstrate the incorrect framing.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

And everybody else goes to Hell, right?

It's interesting that you and Watchmen expect me to answer your questions, but you won't give me the same courtesy. Why is that?
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Romans 1:16)

I also believe the Bible can be trusted. That's why I love it and rely on it so heavily.

This is from the King James Version Bible that you claimed to "rely on so heavily:"
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)

And you would define "Christian" how?

One who has been born again by the Spirit of God.

 

[Watchmen]

I already explained that you frame your questions incorrectly. We can't move forward in our discussion until you understand what we believe and quit trying to twist what we believe. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ. In fact, I am valiantly defending it against your cunning.

So, let me say again. We do works because we seek to do God's will. We seek to do God's will because we humble ourselves to him - we serve him. Do these works earn us grace? No. He chooses to bestow it on us.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

In fact, I am valiantly defending it against your cunning.

I hope you aren't calling me a liar, Watchmen. If you believe that I have lied, please show me and others the proof. Please show all of us where I have twisted anything.

cunning
NOUN:
1. Skill in deception; guile.
2. Skill or adeptness in execution or performance; dexterity.
____________________________________________________________
earn
TRANSITIVE VERB:
earned, earn·ing, earns

To gain especially for the performance of service, labor, or work: earned money by mowing lawns.

To acquire or deserve as a result of effort or action: She earned a reputation as a hard worker
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/earn

Each person who earns eternal life by obedience to the commandments (or laws and ordinances) will need a glorified resurrected body.
- Rachel Woods, Do Latter-day Saints Believe We are Saved by Faith or Works?
About.com
Immortality connotes life without end. Eternal life, on the other hand, connotes quality of life — exaltation, the highest type of immortality, the kind of life enjoyed by God himself. It is in the attainment of eternal life, which man must earn in mortality, that he reaches his full potentiality.
- Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, at General Conference, October 1978, Ensign, November, 1978, p. 14
Individual salvation is "...that which man merits through his own acts
through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel."
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1 p. 134
Immortality has been accomplished by the Savior's sacrifice. Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men. This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us.
- Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 208

 

[Katzpur]

It's interesting that you and Watchmen expect me to answer your questions, but you won't give me the same courtesy. Why is that?

I'm sorry. I really haven't intended to ignore any of your questions. Which ones did I miss?

One who has been born again by the Spirit of God.

Could you elaborate? How do you believe someone receives the Spirit? Is it a one-time event? How do you believe a person is different when he has been born again? Is it possible for a person to lose his salvation after having been born again?

 

[Watchmen]

I hope you aren't calling me a liar, Watchmen. If you believe that I have lied, please show me and others the proof. Please show all of us where I have twisted anything.

cunning
NOUN:
1. Skill in deception; guile.
2. Skill or adeptness in execution or performance; dexterity.
____________________________________________________________
earn
TRANSITIVE VERB:
earned, earn·ing, earns

To gain especially for the performance of service, labor, or work: earned money by mowing lawns.

To acquire or deserve as a result of effort or action: She earned a reputation as a hard worker
[URL="http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/earn"]http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/earn[/URL]

I didn't call you a liar. It's interesting that you came up with that on your own.

My point is that I have repeatedly told you what we believe and you repeatedly deny that what I'm saying is actual LDS belief.

We don't "earn" salvaltion. It is a gift. Just because we do stuff doesn't change this fact.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

How do you believe someone receives the Spirit? Is it a one-time event? How do you believe a person is different when he has been born again? Is it possible for a person to lose his salvation after having been born again?

I'm surprised that you haven't read this:
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.(John 3:8)

If God begins a new work in an individual, please explain how God fails in His efforts to sanctify, and glorify that person.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28)

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:30)

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. (Hebrews 9:12)

...and, lo, I am with you Always, even unto the end of the world. Amen (Matthew 28:20)
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor. 5:17)

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: (Philippians 1:6)

11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. (John 17:11)

And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. (John 10:4-5)

Let those verses suffice as this thread is about how one receives salvation, not about eternal security.

A born again person is no longer walking in darkness; he is following Christ the Light of the world.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I didn't call you a liar. It's interesting that you came up with that on your own.

Which definition of cunning were you using, Watchmen?

My point is that I have repeatedly told you what we believe and you repeatedly deny that what I'm saying is actual LDS belief.

We don't "earn" salvaltion. It is a gift. Just because we do stuff doesn't change this fact.

Are you an official spokesperson for your church? Should I take your word over those of other LDS members? Could you politely answer my questions instead of making personal accusations about my posts? That would be very nice.

 

[Watchmen]

Are you an official spokesperson for your church? Should I take your word over those of other LDS members? Could you politely answer my questions instead of making personal accusations about my posts? That would be very nice.

No. I'm not the official spokesperson for my church.

This is a debate forum - you can take my word or not.

I will answer your questions when you start accepting my answers (chicken and the egg).

We don't "earn" grace. It is a gift. That fact doesn't change just because we do works.

Do you have a question?

 

[Katzpur]

I'm surprised that you haven't read this:
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.(John 3:8)

If God begins a new work in an individual, please explain how God fails in His efforts to sanctify, and glorify that person.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28)

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:30)

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. (Hebrews 9:12)

...and, lo, I am with you Always, even unto the end of the world. Amen (Matthew 28:20)
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor. 5:17)

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: (Philippians 1:6)

11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. (John 17:11)

And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. (John 10:4-5)

Let those verses suffice as this thread is about how one receives salvation, not about eternal security.

A born again person is no longer walking in darkness; he is following Christ the Light of the world.

Okay, thanks. It sounds like we agree then, because I also believe those scriptures to be true.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Okay, thanks. It sounds like we agree then, because I also believe those scriptures to be true.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]If LDS agreed with Protestants, they would not remain in the LDS church. Sure LDS like to say, "We believe those verses are true." I can't tell you how many times I've heard LDS say that. Yes, LDS love to give the impression that there is very little difference between LDS beliefs and Protestant beliefs. But the truth is that our doctrines oppose one another's. If a person is LDS, he nearly always believes that non-LDS "teach for doctrines the commandments of men." Joseph Smith claimed that he asked God about it and that those exact words came from God.[/FONT]

There is an extremely wide divide between Mormonism amd evangelical Christianity as I have pointed out in many previous posts.

 

[Katzpur]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]If LDS agreed with Protestants, they would not remain in the LDS church.

That's right. And if Baptists agreed with Catholics, they would convert to Catholicism. If Episcopalians agreed with Pentacostals, they'd become Pentacostal.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

Sure LDS like to say, "We believe those verses are true." I can't tell you how many times I've heard LDS say that.

It might make you feel better if I were to say that I don't believe those verses to be true, but it wouldn't be honest of me to say that. I do believe them -- every single one of them.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

Yes, LDS love to give the impression that there is very little difference between LDS beliefs and Protestant beliefs. But the truth is that our doctrines oppose one another's.

Do we? You're saying that we intentionally misrepresent our own beliefs then? I think that most of us are willing to admit that differences do exist between our faiths. On the other hand, I don't see anything to be gained by either of us trying to widen the gap. Personally, I prefer to acknowledge honest differences of opinion while trying to find common ground. You may not believe that any common ground exists, but I do.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

If a person is LDS, he nearly always believes that non-LDS "teach for doctrines the commandments of men." Joseph Smith claimed that he asked God about it and that those exact words came from God.

Yes, they did, but these words don't mean that every doctrine taught by every non-LDS Christian denomination is false. We believe that much of what other Churches teach is true, and we don't go around claiming that we're the only Christians. For the most part, non-LDS Christians are much more exclusionary towards us than we are towards them. [/FONT]

 

[Watchmen]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]If LDS agreed with Protestants, they would not remain in the LDS church. Sure LDS like to say, "We believe those verses are true." I can't tell you how many times I've heard LDS say that. Yes, LDS love to give the impression that there is very little difference between LDS beliefs and Protestant beliefs. But the truth is that our doctrines oppose one another's. If a person is LDS, he nearly always believes that non-LDS "teach for doctrines the commandments of men." Joseph Smith claimed that he asked God about it and that those exact words came from God.[/FONT]

There is an extremely wide divide between Mormonism amd evangelical Christianity as I have pointed out in many previous posts.

Why wouldn't we believe those verses are true? They're in the Bible - the same Bible we teach and preach from every single week.

Is this more cunning on your part? Katzpur and I have both given it to you straight. You don't like it and respond by misrepresenting us.