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ESP, psychic and supernatural phenomenon... yes or no?
- Thread starter Gaura Priya
- Start date
jarofthoughts
Empirical Curmudgeon
Not to mention that we would very likely have discovered a completely new area of science, something that does no happen every day.
outhouse
Atheistically
Im sorry my friend but that is inaccurate.
There are no tells so to speak. the less you think about it the better it works.
Major companies use dowsers to find buried phone cables, plumbing ect ect ect.
having done it for ten years not just playing with it, there is something there. If you hold your hands apart the sticks will move together, hold your hands together the sticks move out and away.
The good dowsers here in hardrock are all around 86% and no well is drilled without a dowser first picking a spot.
All we do is find a line and deignate it. Then try and find a line that intersects it and that gives you a better chance or odds.
I can feel the sticks pull, the power does not come from me. I was trained by a guy using plastic air brake line with a wire nut holding them togther with silicone after the metal was removed from the wire nut. When you walked with this tool like a willow branch you can physically feel the tool pull down hard when crossing a underground water source.
On a side note where water once was will witch as well as electric lines, pvc pipe, ect ect ect.
LOL now this is funny
you discount him when he talks down nazereth but for dowsing hes OK LOL 
come on bud Ive seen some of the test done and they were not done with natural underground water sources. It doesnt take water to witch and I cant tell you what does.
Its why its a phenomenon
outhouse
Atheistically
Not to mention that we would very likely have discovered a completely new area of science, something that does no happen every day.
Im a skeptis about everything I encounter, I cant explain it.
Dowsing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Of the 43 pre-selected and extensively tested candidates at least 37 showed no dowsing ability. The results from the remaining 6 were said to be better than chance, resulting in the experimenters' conclusion that some dowsers "in particular tasks, showed an extraordinarily high rate of success, which can scarcely if at all be explained as due to chance ... a real core of dowser-phenomena can be regarded as empirically proven."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing#cite_note-munich_study_quote-18
jarofthoughts
Empirical Curmudgeon
And the next sentence in that article reads:
"Five years after the Munich study was published, Jim T. Enright, a professor of physiology and a leading skeptic who emphasised correct data analysis procedure, contended that the study's results are merely consistent with statistical fluctuations and not significant."
And further down:
"More recently a study was undertaken in Kassel, Germany, under the direction of the Gesellschaft zur Wissenschaftlichen Untersuchung von Parawissenschaften (GWUP) [Society for the Scientific Investigation of the Parasciences]. The three-day test of some 30 dowsers involved plastic pipes through which water flow could be controlled and directed. The pipes were buried 50 centimeters under a level field, the position of each marked on the surface with a colored strip. The dowsers had to tell whether water was running through each pipe. All the dowsers signed a statement agreeing this was a fair test of their abilities and that they expected a 100 percent success rate, however the results were no better than chance."
outhouse
Atheistically
Ya I read that to and a bunch of other pros and cons.
funny the practice is used in contruction and buisinesses still to this day with positive results. Thats not up for debate, nor is the success rate. Or they would not use it.
many people who use it on a regular basis find it better then current electronics and magnetometers which ive also used.
I have also found the exact lines my boss had found on previous trips to said same site. Now this is over a ten year period of research. The fact I can feel something pulling hard on it throws out your ideomotor effect. [i also read normal honest intelligent people have this happen without them knowing about it]
outhouse
Atheistically
We had a danged exspensive geologist through the state come out and try and find water for a new devolpment. We drilled 7 dry holes about 300' each in a row based on no dowsing. worst streak of dry holes ive seen in 10 years. [thats 2100' of drilling and no water] He made me promise not to tell my boss about this and popped out 2 witching sticks and picked his spot and we had water in minutes after 25'.
I asked once if anyone had drilled in a spot that didnt witch and hit water. No one could answer because no one takes the chance of drilling without first having the site witched.
I asked once if anyone had drilled in a spot that didnt witch and hit water. No one could answer because no one takes the chance of drilling without first having the site witched.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Starting with James Randi. Yes I dismiss him when in regards to Nazareth. James Randi is not a Bible scholar and had no business on that subject. He was speaking on something he had no experience with. That doesn't mean I discount him on everything. I like Bart Ehrman and will listen to him on matters of NT scholarship, but if he talked about magic, I would dismiss him. He has a field that he is an authority on. Outside that field, he is not an authority.
In regards to things like dowsing, he is an authority. That is what his foundation studies and has studied for many years. He is well respected in the field and has done extensive study and testing regarding the subject. To date, after testing many dowsers, all have been show to be not supernatural. Each time logical reasons have been shown to be the explanation. He has been able to duplicate the effect himself using those methods.
Now, I think you missed what I was trying to say. I'm not saying a dowser does anything on purpose. It is something done without thinking. It is the ideomotor effect. In conjunction with that, they pick up on cues, but they don't do so consciously. When looked at, there are very good markers that can be picked up when dowsing. Now a dowser doesn't realize that they pick them up, but they do. That is why some one like me, who has no actual dowsing experience or ability, can mimick such an effect by purely natural means. The difference between myself and a dowser is that I am aware of the cues I am picking up.
If dowsing was truly a supernatural or something similar, one would expect that it could be tested. However, when critical tests are done, dowsers simply fail. Doing something as simple as blindfolding a dowser will usually make there talent unusable. That suggests a lot there.
In regards to things like dowsing, he is an authority. That is what his foundation studies and has studied for many years. He is well respected in the field and has done extensive study and testing regarding the subject. To date, after testing many dowsers, all have been show to be not supernatural. Each time logical reasons have been shown to be the explanation. He has been able to duplicate the effect himself using those methods.
Now, I think you missed what I was trying to say. I'm not saying a dowser does anything on purpose. It is something done without thinking. It is the ideomotor effect. In conjunction with that, they pick up on cues, but they don't do so consciously. When looked at, there are very good markers that can be picked up when dowsing. Now a dowser doesn't realize that they pick them up, but they do. That is why some one like me, who has no actual dowsing experience or ability, can mimick such an effect by purely natural means. The difference between myself and a dowser is that I am aware of the cues I am picking up.
If dowsing was truly a supernatural or something similar, one would expect that it could be tested. However, when critical tests are done, dowsers simply fail. Doing something as simple as blindfolding a dowser will usually make there talent unusable. That suggests a lot there.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Also, feeling a pull on the rods does not disprove the ideomotor effect. In fact, most people who experience the effect, such as with an oijia board, claim they also feel a pull or strong pull.
Draka
Wonder Woman
Yes, I do.
blackout
Violet.
So if our subconscious can bring to the surface
things it (somehow) knows/has access to
through an interaction of muscle, tool and state of being
(as in dowsing)
why is this spoken of in scoffing tones?
It's almost like Self Hypnosis.
And if Divining tools like Tarot cards
do the same in Terms of Visual Association
unlocking the Deeper realms of the Psyche?
*Some people know what they cannot explain.
**Some people feel the need to explain everything,
regardless of what they do or don't know.
I personally am just fine with not being able to explain things.
This does not mean that there are no natural reasons for every'thing that happens.
(what exists that is not part of the nature of things?)
It's just that we don't know what all (or even most) of them are.
Other people seem to need an explination TODAY. Imperatively.
To the point of essentially saying "nothing happened, because I have no answer for it".
eh.
things it (somehow) knows/has access to
through an interaction of muscle, tool and state of being
(as in dowsing)
why is this spoken of in scoffing tones?
It's almost like Self Hypnosis.
And if Divining tools like Tarot cards
do the same in Terms of Visual Association
unlocking the Deeper realms of the Psyche?
*Some people know what they cannot explain.
**Some people feel the need to explain everything,
regardless of what they do or don't know.
I personally am just fine with not being able to explain things.
This does not mean that there are no natural reasons for every'thing that happens.
(what exists that is not part of the nature of things?)
It's just that we don't know what all (or even most) of them are.
Other people seem to need an explination TODAY. Imperatively.
To the point of essentially saying "nothing happened, because I have no answer for it".
eh.
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blackout
Violet.
My favorite are the amazing Co'incidences/Co'incidents and Synchronicities
that just make you go WOW.
Because they are just so great and amazing.
You can say whatever you want about them.
I prefer a simple WOW.
But I am one who loves basking in the Mystery of Life and Being.
My experiences make my life,
more than my explinations of my experiences of my life.
Silence and Mystery.
This is the place from which all the most wonderful things in ME arise.
So for me, this is my home.
You probably live somewhere else.
I'm good with that.
that just make you go WOW.
Because they are just so great and amazing.
You can say whatever you want about them.
I prefer a simple WOW.
But I am one who loves basking in the Mystery of Life and Being.
My experiences make my life,
more than my explinations of my experiences of my life.
Silence and Mystery.
This is the place from which all the most wonderful things in ME arise.
So for me, this is my home.
You probably live somewhere else.
I'm good with that.
jarofthoughts
Empirical Curmudgeon
First, this is anecdotal, and as I'm sure you know, this is not considered evidence.
The plural of anecdote is not data.
Secondly, even if they did have a high success rate, something which they apparently struggle to maintain in controlled tests, you would still have to isolate what the exact mechanism is. And my money would be on an overall good knowledge about the formation of the terrain and how this affects underground springs rather than some mystical force. In which case the sticks are just props, nothing more.
I'm sure it feels very real, however, since the ideomotor effect is well documented I hardly see it as ruled out. Besides, if you knew that it was you doing the moving, it wouldn't be ideomotor, now would it?
nameless
The Creator
wonderful ideas ...
St Giordano Bruno
Well-Known Member
[FONT="]ESP, psychic and supernatural phenomenon... yes or no? All in descending order of belief. ESP is of course less plausible than ordinary sensory perception, psychic powers as less plausible than ESP and supernatural phenomenon is of course less plausible than psychic powers. But as a whole I am sceptical of all three. [/FONT]
outhouse
Atheistically
No there are none in my case, we are looking for water hundreds of feet through hardrock and anywhere from 5' to 500' of overburden. There are no srface signs at all.
NO i am. After ten years of success not a few test I can discount him as a authority.
I have witched lines, drilled down in hardrock and used a mirror to shine light and you can see the direction of the way the water is flowing in the well to determine the direction of said line. Then finding out your witched line is exactly what you hit. Again 10 years DAILY experience with a 86% logged success rate.
Im not sure it is supernatural either
Wrong it is suspected my friend.
Im telling you from experience IO have felt something pull down very hard as to twist the plastic lines in my hand, NOT my hand dipping down to drop said lines.
I have felt this from a light pull on some places to a hard pull. I cant explain it BUT I know for a fact not everytime is it your own doing. I wont discount the ideomotor effect completely as I think we are the radio so to speak and the sticks are the antenna.
If you think about it, the pull becomes weaker. I just empty my mind comepletely [not hard to do LOL
] and walk and wait for the sticks to move to start to designate a line.except for the fact they are used proffessionally in large corporations because it works with a high degree of success.
the proof is in the pudding.
I would only say that because your messing with the antenna so to speak, your messing also with results.
I cannot explain it and I have played with it, I have used this power or energy with gold and a crystal on a chain and shopwed this to non beleivers and had them shaking their heads. I could use the gold and move it to the crystal on the chain hanging there, and you could see the gold repell or push the crystal away like a magnetic field. That blows the ideomotor effect out of teh water.
Funny only one crystal ever worked that way and it was kind of spooky and I gave it away. It was only about a inch long and was two crytals joind together in a V shape and when playing with this the V shape seemed to have a positive and negative effect. Very simular to when you hold the sticks close together they move outwards and if you hold them a part they move inwards.
Bud I cant explain it, and I quit messing around with crystals 20 years ago, dont care to figure out of play with dowsing anymore either. I know it works though. I just cant explain why or how but I can explain WHEN
outhouse
Atheistically
Understood
i dont think you can. If it is a energy source we dont understand we cant test for it.
I dont rule it competely out either
understood there to.
the best I can say is I do not understand it at all, I just know it works and is used proffessionally by large corporations to this day because of the positive results which is its best evidence
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
I don't think dowsing is really psi phenomena or divination. I think people are naturally sensitive to the presence of water and the rods just help a person focus on that sensitivity
outhouse
Atheistically
nope dowsing isnt restricted to water, probably why scientific testing fails.
I wish we could narrow it down that easy
outhouse
Atheistically
heres a true story of a map dowser with a documented case that to me proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt.
this story is backed by law enforcement.
3 people and the truck they were in went missing back east and the case was cold, after a year of zero leeds they brought in a map dowser to try and help solve the case. YES police use them as a tool as a last resort because they are successful.
The dowser pointed to a lake on a map some 20 miles wide and 40 miles long and said they are there.
the police discounted this as they had already searched the area.
6 months went by and still not a single leed, the police called the dowser back in and he agains stated they are in the lake. The dowser used sticks and was placed in the bow of the boat and following his leed when they reached his destination HE said quick throw the anchor out now. the boat stopped and they sent divers down. The anchor landed in the back of the pickups bed, they said they could have done that again if they tried even knowing the location. They found skeletal remains of all 3 and now had the truck.
what had happened is the numbskulls were out getting drunk on the lake doing brodies ect ect and the truck broke through the ice and they all drowned.
without the dowser the truck would still be on the bottom of that lake.
this story is backed by law enforcement.
3 people and the truck they were in went missing back east and the case was cold, after a year of zero leeds they brought in a map dowser to try and help solve the case. YES police use them as a tool as a last resort because they are successful.
The dowser pointed to a lake on a map some 20 miles wide and 40 miles long and said they are there.
the police discounted this as they had already searched the area.
6 months went by and still not a single leed, the police called the dowser back in and he agains stated they are in the lake. The dowser used sticks and was placed in the bow of the boat and following his leed when they reached his destination HE said quick throw the anchor out now. the boat stopped and they sent divers down. The anchor landed in the back of the pickups bed, they said they could have done that again if they tried even knowing the location. They found skeletal remains of all 3 and now had the truck.
what had happened is the numbskulls were out getting drunk on the lake doing brodies ect ect and the truck broke through the ice and they all drowned.
without the dowser the truck would still be on the bottom of that lake.