ESP, psychic and supernatural phenomenon... yes or no?

[outhouse]

I can't believe anything which can't be shown to empirically exist. Just not wired to be that irrational. I understand the appeal though.

you do know the CIA does remote viewing because of the high success rate dont you?

 

[blackout]

heres a true story of a map dowser with a documented case that to me proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

this story is backed by law enforcement.


3 people and the truck they were in went missing back east and the case was cold, after a year of zero leeds they brought in a map dowser to try and help solve the case. YES police use them as a tool as a last resort because they are successful.

The dowser pointed to a lake on a map some 20 miles wide and 40 miles long and said they are there.

the police discounted this as they had already searched the area.

6 months went by and still not a single leed, the police called the dowser back in and he agains stated they are in the lake. The dowser used sticks and was placed in the bow of the boat and following his leed when they reached his destination HE said quick throw the anchor out now. the boat stopped and they sent divers down. The anchor landed in the back of the pickups bed, they said they could have done that again if they tried even knowing the location. They found skeletal remains of all 3 and now had the truck.


what had happened is the numbskulls were out getting drunk on the lake doing brodies ect ect and the truck broke through the ice and they all drowned.


without the dowser the truck would still be on the bottom of that lake.

Lucky guess.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

you do know the CIA does remote viewing because of the high success rate dont you?

I know people believe mistakenly believe all sorts of things are successful, for a variety of reasons. And people who work at the CIA aren't immune to this. In fact, there are an inordinate number of idiots who work there. Trust me, I personally know.

 

[fallingblood]

you do know the CIA does remote viewing because of the high success rate dont you?

What high success rate? The U.S. government spent millions on the study of remote viewing and came to the conclusion that the results were inconclusive. Remote viewing, under test conditions, simply fail. There is no evidence that remote viewing works, if there was, those individuals would be a lot richer. I mean there is over a million dollars up for grabs for anyone who can prove that such a thing happens.

 

[fallingblood]

No there are none in my case, we are looking for water hundreds of feet through hardrock and anywhere from 5' to 500' of overburden. There are no srface signs at all.

Sure there are. There are visible signs. That is why someone like me can go out and reproduce the same phenomena, but simply observing those signs.

It has been tested multiple times, in which false signs are put, and the dowsers go there. Why? Because they are picking up on tell tale clues.

NO i am. After ten years of success not a few test I can discount him as a authority.

Just because you are an authority, that doesn't make him not. He is a respected authority on the subject. You can dismiss him; however, you are dismissing him for no logical reason besides your own biases.

He is an accepted authority. He has spent many years, a lot longer than you (you said ten years) studying ideas such as these. He has tested countless individuals, and have studied the psychology and the method behind such an event. He is an authority.

I have witched lines, drilled down in hardrock and used a mirror to shine light and you can see the direction of the way the water is flowing in the well to determine the direction of said line. Then finding out your witched line is exactly what you hit. Again 10 years DAILY experience with a 86% logged success rate.

That's all fine and dandy, but I can get similar results, and I have no dowsing abilities. James Randi can get similar results, and he is not a dowser.

Wrong it is suspected my friend.

Im telling you from experience IO have felt something pull down very hard as to twist the plastic lines in my hand, NOT my hand dipping down to drop said lines.

I have felt this from a light pull on some places to a hard pull. I cant explain it BUT I know for a fact not everytime is it your own doing. I wont discount the ideomotor effect completely as I think we are the radio so to speak and the sticks are the antenna.

The hard pull and light pull are also seen in the ideomotor effect. I know many people who claim the same thing with a Ouija board or even tables (doing the same basic idea as a Ouija board).

That is what the ideomotor effect is. It is not something someone does consciously, and thus, they don't think it is of their own doing.

If you think about it, the pull becomes weaker. I just empty my mind comepletely [not hard to do LOL ] and walk and wait for the sticks to move to start to designate a line.

This is what, to me, suggests that it is the ideomotor effect in play. That and subconscious cues.

except for the fact they are used proffessionally in large corporations because it works with a high degree of success.

the proof is in the pudding.

So prayer works? Because prayer is also used in some large corporations, and they see a high degree of success as well. I knew one company that relied heavily on a horoscope, and were very successful (I actually made the horoscope for them, after members of the company came to me and asked for my help. I faked the horoscopes, and he still saw success. He has now gotten rid of using horoscopes though, because of what I showed him).

And if it is so successful, it should be able to be tested, in ideal test conditions. However, when it is, it fails.

I would only say that because your messing with the antenna so to speak, your messing also with results.

Not really though. If it doesn't have to do with picking up on visual cues, cutting off that sense should make it better. But it does the exact opposite.

I cannot explain it and I have played with it, I have used this power or energy with gold and a crystal on a chain and shopwed this to non beleivers and had them shaking their heads. I could use the gold and move it to the crystal on the chain hanging there, and you could see the gold repell or push the crystal away like a magnetic field. That blows the ideomotor effect out of teh water.

Not at all. I know a number of professional magicians who use similar effects in their shows. I know one former psychic who used a similar effect widely, and truly thought it was real. But it always goes back to the ideomotor effect.

Bud I cant explain it, and I quit messing around with crystals 20 years ago, dont care to figure out of play with dowsing anymore either. I know it works though. I just cant explain why or how but I can explain WHEN

I'm not trying to belittle what you do. I think if you do have such a high success rate, that is a great feat, and you should take credit for it, instead of placing it on something else.

I don't think dowsing really works. When tested, it fails. However, some dowsers are quite good at what they do. The best ones I have met also know where to look for water and the like. I credit it to someone being able to pick up on visual cues, and knowing the lay of the earth. And really, I think that is much more impressive than dowsing rods. It shows a great feat by the human mind.

 

[outhouse]

and you should take credit for it, instead of placing it on something else.

in tough areas where water is know to be a 1000' deep, there are no surface clues what so ever.

next we will use in hard to find water areas, photos from airplanes to find geographic clues and have a geologist practiced in this method tell us what area to dowse. surface clues are not discounted every time.

many areas have nothing to do with surface clues as nothing 200-500' down shows on top of overburden.


its not tied to ideomotor completely and its not 100% known.



You cannot discount the truck above and it goes way beyond guessing. it works, we just dont know why or how

 

[fallingblood]

in tough areas where water is know to be a 1000' deep, there are no surface clues what so ever.

next we will use in hard to find water areas, photos from airplanes to find geographic clues and have a geologist practiced in this method tell us what area to dowse. surface clues are not discounted every time.

many areas have nothing to do with surface clues as nothing 200-500' down shows on top of overburden.


its not tied to ideomotor completely and its not 100% known.



You cannot discount the truck above and it goes way beyond guessing. it works, we just dont know why or how

We know why and how. It has been explained many times. Some just don't like the explanations.

 

[Quiddity]

I'm open to it. I just don't think there are as many as advertised. Some are more vague then others and know how to read people that way.

 

[outhouse]

We know why and how. It has been explained many times. Some just don't like the explanations.

No you dont.

you have a guess as to the phenomenon, nothing more.

explain the truck in the lake.

 

[gnomon]

Do you believe in it? Yes or no?

I am a sceptic when it comes to supernatural phenomenon... Except for my belief in God, the Afterlife, the soul, and the material realm, it is difficult for me to believe in angels, demigods, ghosts and demons, seeing them as metaphorical.

ESP and psychic phenomenon, furthermore, are things that are occurring within the material laws instead of above them; after all, if humans are capable of them, why not? It goes back to Vaishnavism teaching that siddhis, or yogic powers, are attainable, yet pointless in spiritual life because they distract and can lead to pride.

Nope.

I find most of these types of beliefs, or rather, the people I know who believe them, to be harmless but sometimes these beliefs go too far. Either too far in causing people actual harm on their person or their financial stability and sometimes just perpetuating poor views of science. That "bleep" movie would be an example of the latter. Spiritual mediums/psychics who charge ridiculous rates and I believe know they are merely taking advantage of others I would place as an example of the former.

 

[fallingblood]

No you dont.

you have a guess as to the phenomenon, nothing more.

explain the truck in the lake.

No. The phenomenon has been tested (since like 1641 or round about then) countless times, and has been explained very well. In test conditions, it simply fails. That is a big thing there.

Second, there is no logical reason why dowsing should work. We know for a fact that sticks, rods, or whatever the dowser may be using simply does not react with water, or the like. We know this because it has been shown to be true. There have been experiments done that show beyond a doubt that such items that the dowser uses simply do not react with water or the like. Also, the fact that you can use nearly anything you want (sticks, crystal on a string, a necklace, a keychain, etc), and get the same results, suggests that the tools really have nothing to do with it, but that the individual is effecting the outcome.

Add to that that we know of the ideomotor effect, and that it is an involuntary reaction, it explains this whole ordeal very nicely. And in fact, when tested, that is what we see (one can detect ideomotor effect. It was brought to light I believe in 1930's, or actually clinically demonstrated then. The idea goes back to the 1800's).

Not to mention that finding water, at least in the United States, is not that hard. Especially in the Eastern states. In fact, when tested, a person who is just doing hit or miss style of finding water underground, their success rate is around 75%. So a high success rate really doesn't show anything.

Finally, there are still signs above the ground. That is why a geologist can do the same thing by observing these signs. Rock formations, plants, etc can be signs of underground water, including water that is very far underground.

And it has been studied, and explained many times now. In 1959, there was a great piece written by two professors from Chicago, that basically brought it down to wishing. And they were hardly the first to show that reason behind dowsing. Again, the first time was in 1641.

So really, there is an explanation.

 

[Me Myself]

No. I find it illogical and, what's more, my religion does too.

Not necesarily. Jesus could do that and he did say that people would do stuff far more impressive than his.

 

[outhouse]

No. The phenomenon has been tested (since like 1641 or round about then) countless times, and has been explained very well. In test conditions, it simply fails. That is a big thing there.

Second, there is no logical reason why dowsing should work. We know for a fact that sticks, rods, or whatever the dowser may be using simply does not react with water, or the like. We know this because it has been shown to be true. There have been experiments done that show beyond a doubt that such items that the dowser uses simply do not react with water or the like. Also, the fact that you can use nearly anything you want (sticks, crystal on a string, a necklace, a keychain, etc), and get the same results, suggests that the tools really have nothing to do with it, but that the individual is effecting the outcome.

Add to that that we know of the ideomotor effect, and that it is an involuntary reaction, it explains this whole ordeal very nicely. And in fact, when tested, that is what we see (one can detect ideomotor effect. It was brought to light I believe in 1930's, or actually clinically demonstrated then. The idea goes back to the 1800's).

Not to mention that finding water, at least in the United States, is not that hard. Especially in the Eastern states. In fact, when tested, a person who is just doing hit or miss style of finding water underground, their success rate is around 75%. So a high success rate really doesn't show anything.

Finally, there are still signs above the ground. That is why a geologist can do the same thing by observing these signs. Rock formations, plants, etc can be signs of underground water, including water that is very far underground.

And it has been studied, and explained many times now. In 1959, there was a great piece written by two professors from Chicago, that basically brought it down to wishing. And they were hardly the first to show that reason behind dowsing. Again, the first time was in 1641.

So really, there is an explanation.

Im sorry your wrong.

now if you cant explain the truck then you dont know all there is on the subject. No one does. Ive done it ten years and knew as much my first day as I do now.

The proof is in the results and the large corporations that still employ witchers because of said results.

 

[outhouse]

Not to mention that finding water, at least in the United States, is not that hard.

wrong again.

it depends on where your searching for water.

many places have ground water that is sitting in a water table X amount of feet and you have it. no dowser needed


Others like here, a dowser is mandatory and no company does not use one and proffessionals with records can be had for hire if you dont like the results of said companies dowser.

 

[fallingblood]

Im sorry your wrong.

now if you cant explain the truck then you dont know all there is on the subject. No one does. Ive done it ten years and knew as much my first day as I do now.

The proof is in the results and the large corporations that still employ witchers because of said results.

I'm fine if you think I'm wrong, but dismissing me simply doesn't work. You can have faith that it works, that's okay, as long as you accept it as faith.

And no, there is no proof in the idea that large corporations still employ witchers. If that was proof, then prayer really works, horoscopes really work, psychics really work, etc. However, there is no actual evidence of any of those. And really, I can't see you accepting prayer as something that truly works.

 

[fallingblood]

wrong again.

it depends on where your searching for water.

many places have ground water that is sitting in a water table X amount of feet and you have it. no dowser needed


Others like here, a dowser is mandatory and no company does not use one and proffessionals with records can be had for hire if you dont like the results of said companies dowser.

I'm speaking in general. Yes, some areas are harder to find water, but in general, it isn't too hard to find water in the United States. The fact that by sheer hit or miss style of finding water, one still can have a 75% or higher success rate.

 

[outhouse]

I'm speaking in general. Yes, some areas are harder to find water, but in general, it isn't too hard to find water in the United States. The fact that by sheer hit or miss style of finding water, one still can have a 75% or higher success rate.

you might be right in your facts, here though water is harder to find a good well and no one will drill without a dowser.


Its mostly hardrock, granite, shale and greenstone.

 

[outhouse]

I'm fine if you think I'm wrong, but dismissing me simply doesn't work. You can have faith that it works, that's okay, as long as you accept it as faith.

And no, there is no proof in the idea that large corporations still employ witchers. If that was proof, then prayer really works, horoscopes really work, psychics really work, etc. However, there is no actual evidence of any of those. And really, I can't see you accepting prayer as something that truly works.

was it faith that found the truck the first attempt?

were there surface clues in the waves on the lake?


rules out ideomotor as well. heck I can rule that out by the power I have felt

 

[fallingblood]

heres a true story of a map dowser with a documented case that to me proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

this story is backed by law enforcement.


3 people and the truck they were in went missing back east and the case was cold, after a year of zero leeds they brought in a map dowser to try and help solve the case. YES police use them as a tool as a last resort because they are successful.

The dowser pointed to a lake on a map some 20 miles wide and 40 miles long and said they are there.

the police discounted this as they had already searched the area.

6 months went by and still not a single leed, the police called the dowser back in and he agains stated they are in the lake. The dowser used sticks and was placed in the bow of the boat and following his leed when they reached his destination HE said quick throw the anchor out now. the boat stopped and they sent divers down. The anchor landed in the back of the pickups bed, they said they could have done that again if they tried even knowing the location. They found skeletal remains of all 3 and now had the truck.


what had happened is the numbskulls were out getting drunk on the lake doing brodies ect ect and the truck broke through the ice and they all drowned.


without the dowser the truck would still be on the bottom of that lake.

Can you give me a source? Also, where did this happen at? I need more information. Right now though, it seems logical to look in a lake. Just by sheer statistics, that would be a very good place to look for a lost truck. But again, I would need more information, such as a source and the like.

More so, just because one story can't be explained, that doesn't mean it makes the whole idea true. Not all UFO sightings can be explained away (for a variety of reasons), but that doesn't mean there are aliens visiting us.

 

[fallingblood]

was it faith that found the truck the first attempt?

Coincidence? Sheer luck? A statistical oddity? I don't know as I need more information about the story.

However, it is faith that you're working on. If I pray for someone, and they get better, did the prayer work? Or was it just lucky?

One example simply does not prove anything.