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ESP, psychic and supernatural phenomenon... yes or no?

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
was it faith that found the truck the first attempt?

were there surface clues in the waves on the lake?


rules out ideomotor as well. heck I can rule that out by the power I have felt
You're just dismissing thing willy nilly now. It doesn't rule out the ideomotor effect. It just shows that you don't fully understand it. And really, I have already explained this many times.

As for were their surface clues on the lake? I need more information about the story. I would have to research it.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Can you give me a source?

it was on a TV show a few years back but they had the exact officer/detective involved and he was just blown away. the dowser lived in another state that found the truck.

ill see if I can find you a link bud.


To many people do this to discount it based on skeptics research
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
it was on a TV show a few years back but they had the exact officer/detective involved and he was just blown away. the dowser lived in another state that found the truck.

ill see if I can find you a link bud.


To many people do this to discount it based on skeptics research
Many people also claim to be psychics, and there are some very amazing stories. However, the number of practitioners doesn't show that it is true. Look how many people believe in God and claim to have felt his presence or the like. That certainly doesn't make it true, and it certainly isn't real evidence.
 

cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
Starting with James Randi. Yes I dismiss him when in regards to Nazareth. James Randi is not a Bible scholar and had no business on that subject. He was speaking on something he had no experience with. That doesn't mean I discount him on everything. I like Bart Ehrman and will listen to him on matters of NT scholarship, but if he talked about magic, I would dismiss him. He has a field that he is an authority on. Outside that field, he is not an authority.

In regards to things like dowsing, he is an authority. That is what his foundation studies and has studied for many years. He is well respected in the field and has done extensive study and testing regarding the subject. To date, after testing many dowsers, all have been show to be not supernatural. Each time logical reasons have been shown to be the explanation. He has been able to duplicate the effect himself using those methods.

Now, I think you missed what I was trying to say. I'm not saying a dowser does anything on purpose. It is something done without thinking. It is the ideomotor effect. In conjunction with that, they pick up on cues, but they don't do so consciously. When looked at, there are very good markers that can be picked up when dowsing. Now a dowser doesn't realize that they pick them up, but they do. That is why some one like me, who has no actual dowsing experience or ability, can mimick such an effect by purely natural means. The difference between myself and a dowser is that I am aware of the cues I am picking up.

If dowsing was truly a supernatural or something similar, one would expect that it could be tested. However, when critical tests are done, dowsers simply fail. Doing something as simple as blindfolding a dowser will usually make there talent unusable. That suggests a lot there.
Can we therefore deduce that you are a scholar in a religious field?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Many people also claim to be psychics, and there are some very amazing stories. However, the number of practitioners doesn't show that it is true. Look how many people believe in God and claim to have felt his presence or the like. That certainly doesn't make it true, and it certainly isn't real evidence.


were no talking about psychics though

we are talking about detectives that regularly use dowsers [pay them] to help solve mysteries because they work.

a truck was dowsed out of lake michigan and the anchor landed in the truck bed when the dowser said to stop here.

Like I said after 10 years I cannot begin to explain it. It does how ever work and works well.

ideomotor is not the only exlanation, its the one you choose from little research on the subject.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
were no talking about psychics though

we are talking about detectives that regularly use dowsers [pay them] to help solve mysteries because they work.

a truck was dowsed out of lake michigan and the anchor landed in the truck bed when the dowser said to stop here.

Like I said after 10 years I cannot begin to explain it. It does how ever work and works well.

ideomotor is not the only exlanation, its the one you choose from little research on the subject.

Well, I'm certainly not telling you what to think about this, but in my book you either have objective empirical scientific evidence, or you don't.
And if you don't, well, that makes it kinda hard to believe.

The reason why these anecdotal stories does not count as evidence in any shape or form is very simple; amazing coincidences happen all the time.

I’ll try to illustrate with an example.
We’ve all heard the story about someone who dreamt of their uncle/grandma/friend/whatever the very night they died.
Usually people take this as a sign of some kind of psychic connection or something equally silly.
And they invariably forget to do the math.

In the US there are in the excess of 300 million people.
Let’s be generous and say that about half of those people are adults, about 150 million.
Now, how many of those people do you think dreams about someone close to them every night?
One percent? Heck, let’s go all out and call it one tenth of a percent.
That still leaves about 150.000 people dreaming about loved ones every night of the year.
Now, in any given day, how many people die in the US?
According to the CIA Factbook that number is 6,744.
So let’s quickly calculate the chances that someone who died had someone dreaming about them the very night they kicked the bucket.
Each person in the US has a statistical chance of someone dreaming about them each night of 0,05% (150000 / 300000000 x 100).
Multiply that with the number of people who on average die each night and you get in the excess of 300%.
In other words, this should happen to around three people in the US every single night!!!
Even given leeway for the fact that people often doesn’t remember their dreams this phenomenon should crop up pretty damn often.
But these are only the hits.
When doing science we have to keep track of the misses as well, and in this case we still have at least 6741 people who died without anyone at all dreaming about them.
The problem is that we never hear about the misses.

So, in order to determine whether dowsing works or not, we need the proper data to compare, to make sure that the hits are actually statistically significant.

You have to count the misses too! ;)
 
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no-body

Well-Known Member
I consider all such phenomena as entertainment or psychological manipulation of the self. But I will concede there might be something "there" in like .01% of cases but that it is simply not logically explained with what science we have today.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Do you believe in it? Yes or no?

I am a sceptic when it comes to supernatural phenomenon... Except for my belief in God, the Afterlife, the soul

I'm sorry... but LOL... not much of a sceptic are you?

ESP and psychic phenomenon, furthermore, are things that are occurring within the material laws instead of above them; after all, if humans are capable of them, why not? It goes back to Vaishnavism teaching that siddhis, or yogic powers, are attainable, yet pointless in spiritual life because they distract and can lead to pride.

can you elaborate a little more?
 
I'm sorry... but LOL... not much of a sceptic are you?

Nope, not really. But other than some basic religious values, I have a hard time believing in alot of things, in part of my own spiritual exploration.

can you elaborate a little more?

Traditional Vaishnavism postulates the concept of siddhis. Siddhis are generally seen as yogic powers, or phenomenon that people may possess, such as walking on water, telepathy, levitation, body transferrence, etc. Vaishnavism says that such siddhis are useless, whether they are inborn or attained after austere practices.

They have no bearing on spiritual life, and even with such displays of siddhic feat or miracle, they are limited. I was just referencing this because I come from this background currently, and it has probably influenced my thinking on the subject of the idea of ESP, psychic phenomenon, and displays of 'supramundane powers'.

I'm not sure if they even exist. IF they do happen to exist, they must have some natural causative explanation for their existences.
 
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rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yes, occult powers and superhuman acts are real in some cases. The Bible shows the source of these to be wicked spirit creatures who rebelled against God. For example, the account at Acts 16:16-18 relate that a servant girl had the power to predict the future. The source of that power was "a spirit, a demon of divination."
Rather than have dealings with the occult, the apostle Paul ordered this wicked spirit to leave the girl. Since practicing the occult can bring a person under the control of wicked spirits, it is very dangerous and should be shunned. (Acts 19:11-20)
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Traditional Vaishnavism postulates the concept of siddhis. Siddhis are generally seen as yogic powers, or phenomenon that people may possess, such as walking on water, telepathy, levitation, body transferrence, etc. Vaishnavism says that such siddhis are useless, whether they are inborn or attained after austere practices.

They have no bearing on spiritual life, and even with such displays of siddhic feat or miracle, they are limited. I was just referencing this because I come from this background currently, and it has probably influenced my thinking on the subject of the idea of ESP, psychic phenomenon, and displays of 'supramundane powers'.

I'm not sure if they even exist. IF they do happen to exist, they must have some natural causative explanation for their existences.
So are you arguing in this thread that psychic and supernatural phenomenon are not possible, or that they may be possible but are not true spiritual qualities?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
but in my book you either have objective empirical scientific evidence,

and if you dont have the means to test for it you cannot test. we have learned alot ofthings in the last 100 years, you think were finished??
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
and if you dont have the means to test for it you cannot test.

If something is untestable, it remains, at best, a hypothesis.
If something is unfalsifiable, it remains, at best, an opinion.
But in this case, we should at the very least, be able to set up tests to find statistical significances.
And yet, not such connection is found.

we have learned alot ofthings in the last 100 years, you think were finished??

Absolutely not.
But, as I'm sure you know, what we now know, the knowledge that modern society is built upon, is based on objective empirical scientific evidence. ;)

Also, you might want to give the rest of my post a look and not just the first sentence. :sarcastic
 

outhouse

Atheistically
, but in my book you either have objective empirical scientific evidence,

let me ask you a question

is gravity supernatural??? because we cant explain it?

Gravitation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gravitation, or gravity, is a natural phenomenon

largest force in nature and we are stil at a loss.



There are some observations that are not adequately accounted for, which may point to the need for better theories of gravity or perhaps be explained in other ways.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
let me ask you a question

is gravity supernatural??? because we cant explain it?

Gravitation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gravitation, or gravity, is a natural phenomenon

largest force in nature and we are stil at a loss.



There are some observations that are not adequately accounted for, which may point to the need for better theories of gravity or perhaps be explained in other ways.

What does this have to do with our current discussion? :sarcastic
And in case you don't see the problem...

1. I did not use the word 'supernatural'. Not sure why you would bring that up as if it was a point or something.
2. We have a very good understanding of the effects of gravity even if we don't fully grasp the cause of it. That understanding is based on tons of empirical evidence. As for the cause, we're working on it, through the means of the scientific method. The thing is, no-one is making any claims about it until we have the evidence to back those claims up. Something you should, perhaps keep in mind.
3. Thus, saying that 'we are at a loss' is incorrect.
4. Your example is faulty. You cannot seriously hope to compare a well researched area of physics that is backed by mountains of evidence with the unfounded anecdotally based notions about dowsing. Come on! :facepalm:
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
were no talking about psychics though

we are talking about detectives that regularly use dowsers [pay them] to help solve mysteries because they work.

a truck was dowsed out of lake michigan and the anchor landed in the truck bed when the dowser said to stop here.

Like I said after 10 years I cannot begin to explain it. It does how ever work and works well.

ideomotor is not the only exlanation, its the one you choose from little research on the subject.
I have actually studied and researched this for about 8 years. For 5 of those years, I actually offered a $100,000 reward for anyone who could demonstrate supernatural abilities. This had to be done under test conditions, to make sure that it was actually supernatural abilities and not just natural ones. During this time, I (along with a panel of others) tested a number of dowsers, and not a single one could show that their skills worked under test conditions. Instead, they simply demonstrated what I have been saying. For instance, as soon as they were blindfolded, all of their ability seemed to magically disappear.

Besides testing myself, I also put my knowledge to work and was able to "dowse" for water quite successfully. The difference though is that I didn't use dowsing rods, but the other techniques that I have claimed that dowsers use.

And finally, I studied the research that has been done on the subject. And there is a lot of research on the subject. The vast majority of this research came to the same conclusion. So I do have a lot of knowledge in the field.

We are also kind of talking about psychics as psychics use the same techniques. I still use some of these techniques in my mentalism show. I know a couple of other professional "psychics" who use these same methods in their shows. Instead of rods, they use crystals on a chain, and instead of looking for water, they find a person's card, or the like.

Now, getting to the story. I have actually seen about 3 or 4 versions of this story when I looked it up last night. I never was able to find an official story, or a news article though. But from what I gather, it really isn't to surprising.

First, it was in winter. That is a big key here. We also have a lost vehicle. Between the time of the dowsers work on the case, and the beginning of the case, a considerable amount of time had passed. This means that the story would have been in the news, and that a search would have been conducted. This is important.

Since they were unable to find the truck anywhere, the most likely place to look would have been underwater. If you live by a large body of water, this would have been somewhat clear. For me, that is where I would have looked if nothing turned up.

Next, just knowing something about how ice forms on a lake is important. The weakest places are the center. You get somewhat of a ridge cap there and it is generally quite weak. I know whenever my uncle would take us ice fishing, all of us (including other ice fishers) stayed quite far away from those ridges, as we knew that there was a good chance of breaking through.

Add that to the currents that help bring things closer to the center, it is a great place to point out. The real kicker though is that this isn't the first time such a thing happened. I know that around where I live, we have a large lake. When people fall through, it is usually in the same general area. And this does happen on more than one occasion. Looking at Lake Michigan, this also wasn't the first time such a thing happened. So it wouldn't be too hard for someone to point out, at least on a map, where they were.

Now going to the boat, and them finding the truck. First, the only time I have read that the anchor fell into the bed of the truck is from you. None of the other stories contain it. So unless you can verify it, I don't think it really is accurate. Second, simply dropping anchor around the middle of the lake, or where one knows the ridge caps to have been, would give you a fairly good chance of finding the truck.

I can't really go further in depth, as I don't have an official story, but just working off of this, it really isn't too surprising. What is surprising is that the cops didn't do it in the first place.


However, if you accept this to be true, then don't you have to accept that psychics work as well? Many police departments hire psychics as they claim to have a high success rate (that can be debated, just as the whole dowsing thing can). I have done many talks at police departments regarding the dangers in hiring psychics in the past, and I know first hand, that there are various cops who swear by them (many others find them an annoyance though). But really, it is just as supported as your claim. So is prayer.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Can we therefore deduce that you are a scholar in a religious field?

I am not sure how this relates to the discussion, but I would label myself as possibly an amateur scholar. My field of study is religious studies and classics, with a focus on the New Testament and Historical Jesus scholarship.

In regards to magic, and supernatural phenomenon, I would say that I am a scholar. My studies have been quite thorough in those regards.
 
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