Establishing the Creator (Atheist runs away when Muslim asks probing questions)

[Storm]

well, i don't care about people's opinion about me, even i was the god, i'll not satisfy all of them, and i consider proving god's existence is an immoral thing in my mentality, i'll not do anything against it.

the evidence i have is for my own spirit and for who really answered me "why excluding the universe"
threatening me by ppl will say i'm liar i don't care i'm not better than Noah, Jesus, Moses and Mohamed peace upon all

For someone who doesn't care about any of us, you sure do want our attention.

Also, learn to tell the difference between a threat and natural consequences of your actions.

 

[dynavert2012]

For someone who doesn't care about any of us, you sure do want our attention.

Also, learn to tell the difference between a threat and natural consequences of your actions.

why it's too offended here, who tells i'm not caring about you?? i don't say that at all, why i'm here? don't you ask yourself this question, why i'm spending my time here? Just to enjoy talking to others? no i'm here for you for all of you, may i could help somebody who seeks the truth, may i could be the reason to save a soul of being in the hell, to may be the reason of letting a soul to know it's creator, what do you call of that ?? not caring
i said i don't care about ppl's opinion about me to say liar, cheating,.. it's your opinion i;m not the first one who is misunderstood and insulted.
but caring i swear i'm caring about all of you and i hope the best for all of you

 

[Debater Slayer]

i don't understand this, i can understand that they say yes it was created by god but he's not worth to be worshiped because of the evil in the world "as an example"

The universe requiring a cause doesn't necessitate that said cause must be a deity. How do you know that it wasn't started by anything else other than a deity/deities?

 

[dynavert2012]

The universe requiring a cause doesn't necessitate that said cause must be a deity. How do you know that it wasn't started by anything else other than a deity/deities?

could a car been formed by any other cause rather than a manufacturer ?

 

[Debater Slayer]

could a car been formed by any other cause rather than a manufacturer ?

You are equating the universe with a car in your analogy, but I don't think that is an accurate comparison. In the case of a car, two things are known from the get-go:

1) The exact conditions required to produce one.

2) That said conditions cannot be the product of mere chance, at least according to the laws of physics that govern the Earth.

So if we don't know either of these two things about the universe, how are we to conclude with certainty that a particular being of set of attributes 'X' caused it as opposed to one with set of attributes 'Y' or 'Z', for example?

 

[McBell]

could a car been formed by any other cause rather than a manufacturer ?

What does that have to do with anything?
Or is it merely a bad attempt at presenting the Blind Watchmaker "argument"?

Do you have any idea what all assumptions you have already had to make in order to get to your question?

What is it you are claiming has to have a manufacturer?
I mean other than the car...
The universe?
Please show that the universe "HAD" to have a manufacturer?

IF you can successfully do that, all you needs do is show that your favorite deity actually exists and that it "HAD" to be your favorite deity that did the manufacturing.

And no, merely repeating your above quoted question will not work.

 

[dynavert2012]

You are equating the universe with a car in your analogy, but I don't think that is an accurate comparison. In the case of a car, two things are known from the get-go:

1) The exact conditions required to produce one.

2) That said conditions cannot be the product of mere chance, at least according to the laws of physics that govern the Earth.

So if we don't know either of these two things about the universe, how are we to conclude with certainty that a particular being of set of attributes 'X' caused it as opposed to one with set of attributes 'Y' or 'Z', for example?

agree with your two conditions, but we ride the car but we don't know the first conditions, and we don't deny that BMW made it
there a proverb here said "that you ignore something doesn't mean it's not existing"

 

[F0uad]

Well can a woman give birth to herself? If there is no ''explanation'' or reasonable answer then its more rational to think it was started/created by a deity.

 

[Debater Slayer]

agree with your two conditions, but we ride the car but we don't know the first conditions, and we don't deny that BMW made it
there a proverb here said "that you ignore something doesn't mean it's not existing"

We do: we know that cars have to be manufactured by putting together certain parts and assembling them in a way that ensures they correctly operate. Such processes of manufacturing a car have never been observed to occur by mere chance on the planet we live on, so it is reasonable to believe that they were done by someone.

When it comes to the universe, however, we don't know the conditions that started it in as much detail as we do the car. As far as I know, it's not precisely known what "caused" the Big Bang either, so there doesn't seem to be a cause that is apparent and completely tangible to all people that they 'choose' to ignore when they say that they simply don't know how the universe began to exist.

Well can a woman give birth to herself? If there is no ''explanation'' or reasonable answer then its more rational to think it was started/created by a deity.

I beg to differ. I think that if there is no explanation or reasonable answer, then it is more rational to just admit that we don't know unless solid evidence appears to support any given explanation. Concluding that a specific process(es) was started/created by a deity or deities without enough evidence supporting said claim is a form of the God of the gaps argument as well as an appeal to ignorance.

 

[Breathe]

The universe requiring a cause doesn't necessitate that said cause must be a deity. How do you know that it wasn't started by anything else other than a deity/deities?

Like coming into existence through the reaction of another universe.
Or aliens.

 

[Riverwolf]

Well can a woman give birth to herself? If there is no ''explanation'' or reasonable answer then its more rational to think it was started/created by a deity.

No, it's actually less rational to do so.

In logic, you can't move from a statement of ignorance (no explanation or reasonable answer) to a statement of knowledge (Goddidit).

 

[9Westy9]

but showing the god himself is not evidence

Wrong. If person x sees y then person x has evidence that y exists

it's like that a poor man asking the rich for charity and when the rich gives it to him in a too humble way the poor said shame on you and throw it in his face

how on earth this analogy compares to god showing himself I will never know

i think god's deniers who should give the proof,

Burden of proof falls on the person making the claim.

But everything has a manufacturer, we accept that, why we exclude the universe of having a manufacturer? who exclude it should give the proof not who follow the same rule. you got what i meant?

Because we know that certain things have been manufactured. For other things we don't know exactly how they came to be. The universe is a good example of this.

believers who don't claim, atheists who really claim that there's no manufacture for the world, i follow the rule all of us accept for anything

There are some atheists that claim there's no god but most that I've met don't.

 

[Storm]

Well can a woman give birth to herself? If there is no ''explanation'' or reasonable answer then its more rational to think it was started/created by a deity.

Is the universe a biological organism?

 

[Storm]

you could ask him to switch off gravity for a while. You could ask him about your past or what you're thinking. Sure none of these will make you certain (if we're going with beyond a shadow of a doubt as certain) that the person is god, but it'll be close enough

OK, I'll play God:

Uh, yeah. I don't do parlor tricks. Go watch some David Blaine.

Now what? (Considering that this is line three of some 80% of my conversations about magic, I really don't think it's unreasonable.)

 

[9Westy9]

OK, I'll play God:

Uh, yeah. I don't do parlor tricks. Go watch some David Blaine.

Now what? (Considering that this is line three of some 80% of my conversations about magic, I really don't think it's unreasonable.)

then I'd probably say "then how can I know that you're God?"

 

[Storm]

then I'd probably say "then how can I know that you're God?"

Maybe he rattles off a list of things you've never told anyone about yourself, and tells you to get a part time job, which sets off a chain of event ending in the police nabbing a serial killer? (This was how Joan was convinced in the pilot of Joan Of Arcadia.)

Anyway, wouldn't something along those lines, demonstrating benevolence and foresight at least bordering on omniscience, be more persuasive than appeals to Clarke's Law?

At any rate, hypotheticals are fun, but I think the real world is pretty conclusive proof that God really doesn't care how or if you pray.

 

[9Westy9]

Maybe he rattles off a list of things you've never told anyone about yourself, and tells you to get a part time job, which sets off a chain of event ending in the police nabbing a serial killer? (This was how Joan was convinced in the pilot of Joan Of Arcadia.)

These work too

Anyway, wouldn't something along those lines, demonstrating benevolence and foresight at least bordering on omniscience, be more persuasive than appeals to Clarke's Law?

not sure if they'd be more persuasive to me, but they'd certainly be persuasive

 

[Storm]

These work too



not sure if they'd be more persuasive to me, but they'd certainly be persuasive

OK, for me the keyword here is 'more.'

Personally, I would be much more likely to believe my scenario than yours for the above reasons. Why wouldn't you?

 

[9Westy9]

OK, for me the keyword here is 'more.'

Personally, I would be much more likely to believe my scenario than yours for the above reasons. Why wouldn't you?

I'd be convinced by anything that could prove itself to be vastly superior to me. Both situations show that.

 

[Storm]

I'd be convinced by anything that could prove itself to be vastly superior to me. Both situations show that.

Is that all you require of a God, really?