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Eternal Hell?

I recently saw a post on a Yahoo group that cited the following
verse:
"Demoniac people cling to egoism, brute force,
arrogance, lust, and anger. They hate Me who dwells in
their own bodies and those of others. I hurl these
envious, cruel, sinful, and mischievous people who are
the lowest among men, into the cycles of rebirth in the
womb of Demons again and again . Entering the wombs
of demons birth after birth, these foolish Demoniac souls
sink to the lowest hell without ever attaining Me".
(Bhagavad Gita 16:18-20)

This sounds a lot like eternal hell, but I thought that Hinduism didn't
believe in that. Plus, in another translation of the Gita, Krishna says
(or is interpreted as saying):
"I am always with all beings; I abandon no one. And
however great your inner darkness, you are never
separate from Me
."

For the record, while the 2nd quote is all over the interwebz, I've
had a hard time nailing down which chapter and verse of the Gita
it's derived from. The full text, though can be found here, and is
attributed to Stephen Mitchell (Byron Katie's hubby), based on "The
Bhagavad Gita: An Interlinear Translation" by Winthrop Sargeant.

At any rate, I'm just wondering ... wouldn't non-attainment of
Krishna and abandonment by Krishna essentially amount to the
same thing? :(

Thanks in advance for any help reconciling the two!
:flower:


.

 
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ratikala

Istha gosthi
dear iridescence ,

I recently saw a post on a Yahoo group that cited the following verse:

first of all I'd check the verse against another translation of the Gita

"Demoniac people cling to egoism, brute force, arrogance, lust, and anger. They hate Me who dwells in their own bodies and those of others. I hurl these envious, cruel, sinful, and mischievous people who are the lowest among men, into the cycles of rebirth in the womb of Demons again and again . Entering the wombs of demons birth after birth, these foolish Demoniac souls sink to the lowest hell without ever attaining Me".(Bhagavad Gita 16:18-20)[/quote]

the words outlined in red are some what missleading


This sounds a lot like eternal hell, but I thought that Hinduism didn't
believe in that. Plus, in another translation of the Gita, Krishna says
(or is interpreted as saying):
"I am always with all beings; I abandon no one. Ahowever great your inner darkness, you are never separate from Me."[/quote]

no bodily form is eternal , for example the demon Hiranyakasipu was such a terible demon that the lord appeared as Narasimha to rid the world of the evil hiranyakasipu , when the lord kills a demon the demon receives the mercy of the lord and is released , such is his mercy .
and at the end of kali yuga the lord will again return to anialate the misscreants and save his devotees .
in truth both are released from this earthly abode by the mercy of the lord , it is the manner in which it is done that differs dependant on the state of the being .


Thanks in advance for any help reconciling the two! :flower:

hope that helps ?
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
I recently saw a post on a Yahoo group that cited the following
verse:
"Demoniac people cling to egoism, brute force,
arrogance, lust, and anger. They hate Me who dwells in
their own bodies and those of others. I hurl these
envious, cruel, sinful, and mischievous people who are
the lowest among men, into the cycles of rebirth in the
womb of Demons again and again . Entering the wombs
of demons birth after birth, these foolish Demoniac souls
sink to the lowest hell without ever attaining Me".
(Bhagavad Gita 16:18-20)

This sounds a lot like eternal hell, but I thought that Hinduism didn't
believe in that. Plus, in another translation of the Gita, Krishna says
(or is interpreted as saying):
"I am always with all beings; I abandon no one. And
however great your inner darkness, you are never
separate from Me
."

For the record, while the 2nd quote is all over the interwebz, I've
had a hard time nailing down which chapter and verse of the Gita
it's derived from. The full text, though can be found here, and is
attributed to Stephen Mitchell (Byron Katie's hubby), based on "The
Bhagavad Gita: An Interlinear Translation" by Winthrop Sargeant.

At any rate, I'm just wondering ... wouldn't non-attainment of
Krishna and abandonment by Krishna essentially amount to the
same thing? :(

Thanks in advance for any help reconciling the two!
:flower:


.

I agree with Ratikala. I would like to add.

These are the only verses in all the all of Hinduism that are claimed to teach this concept. This is the only place that Madhva gets his concept of Eternal Hell.(That I know of) Like Ratikala I have a problem with the translation that is used.

18. Dominated by self-conceit, prone to the use of force, arrogant, lustful and choleric, these traducers of virtue violate Me, dwelling in them and also in others.

19. These vicious men, oppressive cruel and sinful as they are, - are always hurled down by Me into demoniac wombs in life after life in the transmigratory cycle.

20. O son of Kunti! Falling into demoniac wombs, in life after life, they go to still lower states of degradation, without attaining Me.


-Translated by Swami Tapasyananda

I see no reason to believe that this is Eternal. Also the word translated as demonic is asura that has a much different meaning. Remember some Asuras are great devotees of the lord Vishnu like Prahlada.

Most see this as birth as worms, bugs, and such things. Still someday that bug may crawl into a murti of Sri Rama. The lord Rama said that anyone who take refuge in Him even an enemy on a battlefield will receive his grace and protection.

Jai Maa
 

Marble

Rolling Marble
I have found this site with commentaries from 4 Vaishnava Sampradayas.
But the Vaishnavas are not the only who interpret the Bhagavad Gita, for instance Ramana Maharshi also quoted the Gita often.
 

Ekanta

om sai ram
Or Shankara has it as:
As long as they do evil, since they have a demonic nature (rajas/tamas) they get rebirth as demons (cruel animals like tigers and lions etc). Or they take even lower birth as vegatables etc... its hard to brake such a chain since animals or vegetables have low intelligence (especially vegetables), hence its said they dont attain Me (the sattvik path leading to Me)...
...Not that they cant attain Krishna, they are just in a bad situation (Houston we have a problem!)
 

Ekanta

om sai ram
What if the vegetable if eaten by an enlightened master?
Does this set that soul free?
Dunno really. I've read at some place that if we eat animals they have to incarnate as humans (although they might not be fit for it). Someone else might have a better answer.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
Dunno really. I've read at some place that if we eat animals they have to incarnate as humans (although they might not be fit for it). Someone else might have a better answer.

yes , and the human who eats the animal is re born as an animal !!!

the sin of eating a cow is to take as many births as a cow as there are hairs on the cows body !!!!
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
dear prabu ji
18. Dominated by self-conceit, prone to the use of force, arrogant, lustful and choleric, these traducers of virtue violate Me, dwelling in them and also in others.

19. These vicious men, oppressive cruel and sinful as they are, - are always hurled down by Me into demoniac wombs in life after life in the transmigratory cycle.

20. O son of Kunti! Falling into demoniac wombs, in life after life, they go to still lower states of degradation, without attaining Me.


-Translated by Swami Tapasyananda

this I feel much happier with :)

18 , egotistical, violent , arogant , lustfull , angry , envious of every one , they abuse my presence within their own bodies and in the bodies of others .

19 , life after life I cast those who are malicious , hatefull , cruel and degraded into the wombs of those with similar demoniac natures .

20 , birth after birth they find them selves with demoniac tendencies . degraded in this way , oh arjuna , they fail to reach me and fall lower still .

eknath easwan' s translation and introduction to the gita .

a very similar translation .

there is no mention of 'eternal hells'
simply delusion fueling further delusion ,
being born amongst similarly deluded souls .
not even necicarily animals ,
but similarly deluded souls .

v ..21 is very important ,
there are three gates to this hell , lust , anger and greed . every sane man should give up these , for they lead to the degradation of the soul .

read with this verse one understands the hell refered to to be a self inflicted state of mind ,
which krsna warns will lead to degredation of the soul .
not damnation of the soul .
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
v ..21 is very important ,
there are three gates to this hell , lust , anger and greed . every sane man should give up these , for they lead to the degradation of the soul .

read with this verse one understands the hell refered to to be a self inflicted state of mind ,
which krsna warns will lead to degredation of the soul .
not damnation of the soul .

Important point !
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
I have found this site with commentaries from 4 Vaishnava Sampradayas.
But the Vaishnavas are not the only who interpret the Bhagavad Gita, for instance Ramana Maharshi also quoted the Gita often.

It is a very Important source, it is one of the three starting points of Vedanta Philosophy (Prasthanatrayi).
 

Cassandra

Active Member
I recently saw a post on a Yahoo group that cited the following
verse:
"Demoniac people cling to egoism, brute force,
arrogance, lust, and anger. They hate Me who dwells in
their own bodies and those of others. I hurl these
envious, cruel, sinful, and mischievous people who are
the lowest among men, into the cycles of rebirth in the
womb of Demons again and again . Entering the wombs
of demons birth after birth, these foolish Demoniac souls
sink to the lowest hell without ever attaining Me".
(Bhagavad Gita 16:18-20)

This sounds a lot like eternal hell, but I thought that Hinduism didn't
believe in that. Plus, in another translation of the Gita, Krishna says
(or is interpreted as saying):
"I am always with all beings; I abandon no one. And
however great your inner darkness, you are never
separate from Me
."

Since the universe is not eternal, this is not etenal. Also it is self chosen since people can change their ways having a free will.

But if one descends to very low levels there is no more want to change, these people detest anything that is Dharm, they may even find delight in their own suffering because they have become insensate.

I once saw an interview with a man in one of the most dangerous prisons in the US where people are constantly killing each other and no one is safe. He said: "For me this where I feel truly alive, invading your home and raping your wife does not give me the pleasure I find here". So if you sink very low it may become even harder to find the way up. The most evil demons in the epic stories where not normal evil people but people cursed, and they were freed of the curse by dying by the hands of God.

What is interesting is that Gurus like Nisargadatta say that if people sink too low, there comes a point their soul self-destructs. That would be another way out of the cycle. It also brings a question, what is this self-destruct? If the Atman merges totally into the Divine, it could be considered the highest goal, except that it would happen involuntarily.
 
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ratikala

Istha gosthi
Important point !

22 , those who escape these three gates , oh son of kunti , performacts condusive to realization atain the supreme destination .

23 , he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims atains neither perfetion nor happiness , nor the supreme destination .

24 , one should therefore understand what is duty and what is not duty by the regulations of the scriptures . knowing such rules and regulations , one should act so that he may become gradualy elevated .

sri bhagavan ki jai
 

Marble

Rolling Marble
What is interesting is that Gurus like Nisargadatta say that if people sink too low, there comes a point their soul self-destructs. That would be another way out of the cycle. It also brings a question, what is this self-destruct? If the Atman merges totally into the Divine, it could be considered the highest goal, except that it would happen involuntarily.
Where does he say this please, can you give me the link?
How can a soul destruct itself, isn't Atman indestructible?
 

Cassandra

Active Member
Where does he say this please, can you give me the link?
How can a soul destruct itself, isn't Atman indestructible?
It is in his book "I am that part2". I think he refers to Soul meaning Jiva not Atman. Atman is indestructible.
 
yes , and the human who eats the animal is re born as an animal !!!

the sin of eating a cow is to take as many births as a cow as there are hairs on the cows body !!!!

Interesting! Where does Lord Krishna mention this? Is it in
the Gita? I may have seen that but having only read the Gita
through once so far, I may have forgotten it was in there.


.



 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
dear iridescence ,


Interesting! Where does Lord Krishna mention this? Is it in
the Gita? I may have seen that but having only read the Gita
through once so far, I may have forgotten it was in there.


in the bhagavad gita
krsna says .....that action performed in illusion , in dissregard for scriptural injunctions, and without regard for future bondage or for violence or distress caused to others , is said to be in the mode of ignorance ch .18 ...v .25

the laws of manu state .....as many hairs as the slain beast has , so often indeed shall he who killed without lawfull reason suffer a violent death in future births . ch . 5 ...v . 38


the law of manu like many shastras condem cow killing , therefore to do so would be dissregard for scriptural injunctions ,........ without regard for future bondage , in that we tie ourselves to future births on account of our actions .and that those actions being ignorant in nature , having been the cause of suffering to other living beings it is then understandable that in our futuer lives we allso will suffer the same fate that we caused upon others be they animal or human . in the case of cow killing then the violent deaths may well be suffered in the body of a cow .
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend I........,

GITA Summary of Chapter - 16 ( Daivaasura Sampad Vibhaag Yoga)
( The Yoga of division between the Divine and Demonic Natures )
Preface
This chapter explains the daivic (divine) and asuric (demonic) natures. The embodied Individual soul under the influence of the ¡¥Maya¡¦ (Material energy of Bhagavan Krishna) adopts either divine or demonic nature, depending upon the deeds in his previous birth. The placing of a particular individual soul in a particular body is the prerogative of the Supreme God.
When one takes divine nature, he becomes devoted to Krishna. Those who adopt the demonic or atheistic nature, become envious of Krishna and as a result go to hell. Those of demonic nature preach atheism, mayavada, etc. One can escape from
demonic tendency by surrendering unto the lotus feet of Krishna and worshiping Him with total faith .
The Supreme God (Krishna or Maha-Vishnu), in His localized aspect as Paramatma (Supersoul) is sitting as witness in everyone¡¦s heart. He always knows what one intends to do. One must thus have firm conviction that Krishna as ¡¦Paramatma¡¦ will take care of a soul surrendered to Him . One should firmly believe "I shall never be alone. Even if I live in the darkest regions of a forest I shall be accompanied by
Krishna, and He will give me all protection."

DIVINE QUALITIES THAT SHOULD BE CULTIVATED FOR SALVATION
The divine qualities are ; Fearlessness, purity of mind, cultivation of spiritual knowledge, charity, self control, sacrifice, study of vedic scriptures, austerity, simplicity , nonviolence, truthfulness, absence of anger, renunciation, equanimity, abstaining from malicious talk, compassion for all living beings, freedom from greed, gentleness, modesty, steady determination, forgiveness, fortitude, cleanliness, vigor , absence of jealousy and absence of pride.
DEMONIC AND ATHEISTIC QUALITIES THAT SHOULD BE GIVEN UP BEFORE SPIRITUAL JOURNEY CAN BEGIN
The characteristics of those born in demonic or atheistic nature are : Hypocrisy, arrogance, pride, anger, harshness, and ignorance. These demonic qualities cause bondage.
These demonic qualities are adopted by them from the beginning of their bodies in the wombs of his mothers, and as they grow all these inauspicious qualities manifest in them.
Accepting nonpermanent things, the demonic people create their own God, create their own hymns and chant accordingly. The result is that they become addicted to wine, women and gambling ; those are their unclean habits. Induced by pride and false prestige, they create fake religions which are totally against the Vedic injunctions. Although such demonic people are most abominable in the world, still, by artificial means the world creates a false honor for them , until their true nature is revealed .
The Atheists have no knowledge of Vedic scripture, nor they have any faith ; therefore they always feel free to do anything for sense enjoyment, regardless of the consequences.
A demonic person believes in the strength of his personal work, not in the law of karma. According to the law of karma, a man takes his birth in a high family, or becomes rich, or very well educated, or very beautiful because of good work in the past. The demonic think that all these things are accidental and due to the strength of his personal ability. He does not sense any arrangement behind all the varieties of people, beauty, and education. Anyone who comes into competition with such a demonic man is his enemy. There are many demonic people, and each is enemy to the
others.
Sometimes such demons take up the role of preacher, mislead the people, and become known as religious reformers or as incarnations of God. They make a show of performing yajnas (sacrifices) , or they worship the demigods, or manufacture their own God. Ignorant men advertise them as God and worship them, and by the foolish they are considered advanced in the principles of religion, or in the principles of spiritual knowledge. They take the dress of the renounced order of life and engage in all nonsense in that dress.
The demonic and atheistic persons, have no faith in Krishna, the Supreme God . Such men perform all kinds of sinful activities simply for sense gratification. They do not know that the Supersoul is sitting within their heart itself as witness. Being envious of both Krishna and the scriptures , such ill-fated men put forward false arguments against the existence of God and refutes the scriptural authority. They think themselves independent and powerful in every action. They act according to their own whims, but their next birth will depend entirely upon the decision of God.

SUFFERING IS THE DESTINY OF THE DEMONIC ATHEISTS
The placing of a particular individual soul in a specific body is the prerogative of the supreme God. .The individual soul, is put into the womb of a mother where he gets a particular type of body under God¡¦s supervision , on the basis his deeds in his previous birth . Therefore in the material existence we find so many species of life-- animals, insects, men, and so on. All are arranged by the Supreme God. They are not accidental. As for the demonic atheists, they are perpetually put into the wombs of demons, and thus they continue to be
envious, the lowest of mankind. Such demonic species of life are held to be always full of lust, always violent and hateful and always unclean .
Krishna is all-merciful, but He is never merciful to the demons. It is clearly stated that the demonic people, life after life, are put into the wombs of similar demons, and, not achieving the mercy of the Supreme God, they go down and down, so that at last they achieve bodies like those of cats, dogs and hogs. Such cursed souls have practically no chance of receiving the mercy of God at any stage of later life.
LUST, ANGER, AND GEED ARE THE THREE GATES TO HELL
Lust, anger, and greed are the three gates of hell leading to the downfall of the individual. The demoniac and atheists begin their ill-fated journey by entering these gates first.
ONE MUST FOLLOW THE SCRIPTURAL INJUNCTIONS GIVEN IN ¡¥BHAGAVAD GITA¡¦
The human life is especially meant for purifying one's existence, by following the rules and regulations of vedic scriptures ( that are meant for knowing Krishna) . Bhagavad Gita is the essence of all entire vedic scriptures . If one understands Krishna from Bhagavad-gita, and applies Krishna¡¦s instructions in his own life, engaging
himself in Krishna¡¦s worship ; he has reached the highest perfection offered by the Vedas.
Personal understand: Stones too have consciousness in fact there is nothing that is not consciousness even those born with demonic/satanic nature but like the stone they too evolve depending on their karma.

Love & rgds
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
dear freind zenzero ,

firstly out of interest may I ask which gita you are reffering to ?????
who is writing the summary ?

as allthough whilst I agree in general with its contents there is one section that by un skillfull use of words is incorrect

Friend I........,



but He is never merciful to the demons. It is clearly stated that the demonic people, life after life, are put into the wombs of similar demons, and, not achieving the mercy of the Supreme God, they go down and down, so that at last they achieve bodies like those of cats, dogs and hogs. Such cursed souls have practically no chance of receiving the mercy of God at any stage of later life.

as previously posted the lord took the form of narasimha and by killing the deamon hiranyakasipu thus releasing him the lord is granting his mercy .
therefore it is incorrect to say that the lord is never mercifull to demons

see pervious post ,

I will return to the subject of cats and dogs later .....

my appologies for appearing to criticise the translator of any summary given on the gita , but such inacuracys are very missleading .

but I hope that everyone can see the error , and take no offence in my raising it .
 
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