-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Eternal Hell?
- Thread starter Astravalon
- Start date
You're right. Wasn't Kamsa liberated because the form of
Krishna consciousness he practiced was that of an enemy?
Putana was a demoness who was also liberated in spite of
her attempt to kill the infant Krishna by nursing Him with
poisoned milk.
It seems that the Lord's view is Hey, you're thinking
constantly of Me -- I can work with that and turn it into
something beautiful!
This fits perfectly with the universally redemptive God I came to believe in prior to
seeing Him as Krishna. It really boils down to, if you've got
the power to make things right, which God undoubtedly
does, to eternally refuse to do so contradicts the merciful
nature that He is said to have.
Salvation is just as much the Remedy as it is some reward,
imo.
As for being reincarnated as a cow -- I'm not sure how to
take that, given that I think it's the the Rigveda which refers
to cows as the goddess Devi, the mother of the gods (please
correct me if I'm wrong on that one). If so, is being
reincarnated as a cow a punishment... or a promotion? That
one leaves me scratching my head, lol.
At any rate, as long as I have the kind of relationship with
my Lord that I currently do, I'll come back as often as He
wants me to, in whatever form He sees best (though
personally I'm not sold on the idea of reincarnation as
punitive, especially since I factor Yeshua's impact on
mankind into my soteriology). However it works out, it's all
good! Besides, life is a gift, not a curse, so who wouldn't
want to experience it, whether it be here on earth a gazillion
times and in a billion forms, or in the heavenlies?
.
Last edited:
Marble
Rolling Marble
Perhaps it was a promption in erlier times - in our times of factory farming it is a cruel punishment.
I agree, which raises another question in my mind: While the
treatment of cows in some localities has changed for the worse,
has the nature of the cows changed? In other words, if the cow is
still considered the goddess, and if Lord Krishna is still considered
the Protector of Cows -- making them one very powerful Team
right there
-- then what is happening? How could anyone even get close to a cow with the intent to harm her and succeed? If it is
indeed intended as God's punishment, and the cow is Devi, then
why is Krishna punishing her like this?
(Sorry -- I'm like a hot-air popcorn-maker when it comes to
generating questions. First one, then two, then suddenly twenty
come pouring out all at once, lol!)
PS: While I do have my own explanation for this apparent dilemma,
it's likely not very conventional. Yet I am curious as to what a more
orthodox explanation might be.
.
ratikala
Istha gosthi
yes, but not through their own doing but through the lords mercy.
zenzero
Its only a Label
Friend ratikala,
The above was from: GITA Summary, Chapter - 16 of 18 ..
Sorry for not having provided the link earlier also that am not any part of what has been written by anyone.
If the understanding stated above differs from others am willing to discuss it but can not speak on any authors/writers behalf as he only knows best.
Personally do agree that the author has left no room for UN-consciousness [demons] to be conscious of that CONSCIOUSNESS which is the source of unconsciousness![at least from the lines your highlighted]
Love & rgds
The above was from: GITA Summary, Chapter - 16 of 18 ..
Sorry for not having provided the link earlier also that am not any part of what has been written by anyone.
If the understanding stated above differs from others am willing to discuss it but can not speak on any authors/writers behalf as he only knows best.
Personally do agree that the author has left no room for UN-consciousness [demons] to be conscious of that CONSCIOUSNESS which is the source of unconsciousness![at least from the lines your highlighted]
Love & rgds
ratikala
Istha gosthi
agreed !
it is only a blesing to be born as a cow if one is born in a strictly vegetarian household and unfortunately those are few even in india .otherwise one is born to suffering and an early death .
the true blessing is to be born as a cow in goloka not here at the hands of the unscrupulous human !
the divine cow mother of all cows who are conciddered her earthly embodiments resides in goloka .
a cow to be born in goloka is born into the eternal service of sri krsna , where she will be loved and protected for eternity .
krsna is eternaly protecting the cow in goloka ......which leads us back to the unfortunate birth as a cow on this earthwhich is a lower birth and in most cases (appart from in a true goshala), a birth of suffering , which I hope you can see is the birth fitting for one who has caused the cow to suffer in a previous life !!!!
ratikala
Istha gosthi
dear zenzero ,
my appologies if you thought that I thought you wrote it , I was aware that you were quoting ......the question was who ....?
now I understand that it was not a summary from a book but a quote from a summary on the internet ....
which just outlines the importance of not taking things on face value without carefully conciddering their validity .
I am sure like most statements it was well intended , but he got a little caried away with him self .
I'm relieved that you appreciate the importance of that, given my
thorough exploration of my Cow Conundrum, which continues below.
I see what you're saying.
However, I'm seeing something of a catch-22 with this particular system
(provided I'm understanding it correctly). I hope the following makes
sense, lol! ...
If God views the causing of a cow's suffering as wrong, then why
would He then view that same suffering, in the form of punishment, as
right?
And if, indeed, He thinks it's okay as punishment, then how do we
know that refraining from killing cows might be interfering with His will for
someone who He wanted to have receive that punishment?
And if it's only the cows in Goloka that are considered the goddess
Devi, then why are cows in this lower, earthly realm regarded more highly
than other creatures, to the point that folks believe those who make
them suffer must then be reborn as cows to face the same fate?
What I see happening in such a system is that those who are helping to
administer God's punishment by killing a cow are then setting themselves
up for that same fate in their next life for doing so. But if it's God's will
that the cow suffer for previous sins, why would those causing the cow's
suffering be punished in their next life (and, meanwhile, condemned in
this one) for doing what is believed to be God's will on this point? It
perpetuates a cycle, the foundation of which is wrongdoing; it's like a
catch-22. I'm having a very hard time making sense out of that (can you
tell? lol!
). Please know that I'm not advocating causing suffering to cows or any
other creature -- far from it. :sad: As I said previously, I have my own
explanations for this dilemma, but I'm trying to approach this from within (my
understanding of) the Hindu framework specifically.
.
zenzero
Its only a Label
Friend Ir......
Personal understanding is that God is an understanding of THAT label which stands for everything in existence including us.
If we are part of that *whole* that includes us can we kill that is part of which am also part off??
Cows are also part of that *whole* which is CONSCIOUSNESS except in different forms which are temporary and are mere illusions or mind delusions.
However do note that whatever anyone eats is also a form of consciousness and so it is only a question of sensitivity towards fellow beings in different forms be they animals or vegetables it is only a question of the stage of evolution of that form.
Love & rgds
Personal understanding is that God is an understanding of THAT label which stands for everything in existence including us.
If we are part of that *whole* that includes us can we kill that is part of which am also part off??
Cows are also part of that *whole* which is CONSCIOUSNESS except in different forms which are temporary and are mere illusions or mind delusions.
However do note that whatever anyone eats is also a form of consciousness and so it is only a question of sensitivity towards fellow beings in different forms be they animals or vegetables it is only a question of the stage of evolution of that form.
Love & rgds
But karma is so intricate that to be born as one of these lowly beings may simply to be to "burn off" some sanchita karma. Who knows if it takes 1,000 or 1,000,000 lifetimes as an ant to become a dandelion to use up more sanchita karma? None of these beings can create kriyamana karma.
It seems that the Lord's view is Hey, you're thinking
constantly of Me -- I can work with that and turn it into
something beautiful!
universally redemptive God I came to believe in prior to
seeing Him as Krishna.
"Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination." Bhagavad Gita 9.30
Here's a wild and crazy thought in an attempt to explain why Krishna is making any references to casting down evil-doers.
Krishna is Brahman.
Brahman is All, containing creation.
Karma is part of creation.
Karma makes the judgments.
Krishna is speaking as a manifestation of karma.
Krishna is Brahman.
Brahman is All, containing creation.
Karma is part of creation.
Karma makes the judgments.
Krishna is speaking as a manifestation of karma.
This lines up with something Krishna told Arjuna in the
Bhagavad Gita, when He explains to Arjuna (who didn't want
to kill anyone) that only the body is killed, while the eternal
self is immortal. (Bhagavad Gita 2:16-18)
.
ratikala
Istha gosthi
I can understand your conundrum ....
I will try to explain as simply as possible ,
forgive me if some answers seem simplistic or some what of a generalisation, but it is extremely hard to explain the complexities of re birth , and the results of our actions which cause , or necesitate rebirth ,without writing volume after volume of books on the matter .
first if you do not mind I need to remove the words right and wrong and use dharma and adharma ....
we know that krsna , as govinda or gopala , is the lover of cows , the protector of cows , and as a cowherd boy he illustrated the correct behavior of a cowherd in accordance with dharma ... the duty of a cowherd , so he laid down the correct behavior towards go mata .
the whole purpouse of krsnas apperance before the onset of kaliyuga was to set the correct example as to our duty our dharma , ok he had some wonderfull passtimes whilst he was here , but accepting that he came with a purpouse , to atract and engage us in rightious behavior , thus in his adult years he spoke the gita providing us with guidance ......that guidance given , it is our dharma to follow the examples set the outlines given ...and it is adharma if we break from that guidance or go against our duty , our dharma .
so yes krsna is against any misstreatment of go mata ,
he dosent !
he is not punishing !.... he is simply saying that suffering will be the result of your actions if you do not fullfill your duty , if you do not stick to your dharma !
he is saying that if we visit suffering upon another living being , then the result of your actions will be a subsequent birth in which you experience the suffering you have caused another to suffer .
so in short we are the cause of our own suffering .
the lord in his many guises is the one who keeps appearing in order to lead us away from our adharmic behavior which is the cause of our suffering , and lead us on the dharmic path away from the constant cycle of rebirth and towards realization and release .
he dosent think it is ok ! he dosent want to see any suffering , just as a mother tries to stop her children fighting , she tells them again and again , stop this please or you will get hurt , she feels pain at the thought of her children suffering , but the children are slow to learn , and in truth will get and give many a black eye before they learn that suffering is the consequence of their own actions .
mother dosent punish the child by giving him a black eye , he brings suffering upon himself ! through his inocent ignorance !
we are that child , the lord says dont do it or you will get hurt , and in our inocent ignorance we dont listen , only by experience do we learn and in this life we make the same mistake again and again, we are slow to learn .
it is the same in terms of lifetimes we are slow to learn , we take birth again and again making mistakes , and the lord is there like a patient mother telling us over and over again , that is his mercy , like a mother teaching us , guiding us , loving us , never giving up on us , being there for us allways , when we are ready to listen he is there !
now this is where it gets difficult to explain....
surabhi the divine cow is he mother of all cows in that they are concidered her earthly embodiments , that is how we are told to see the cow , how we are told to treat the cow !
all cows in goloka are liberated souls , if for instance upon gaining realisation I were to dream of serving the lord in his abode I might wish to be a gopi or I might wish to be one of krsnas cows !
there is no knowing what forms were in their previous lives only when one becomes so very advanced can one understand or choose such things as births .
but as for births here , these are determined by our thoughts and actions , a person of controled and good nature takes births progressing towards realization taking increasingly more fortunate births , and a person of uncontroled nature takes births in a less fortunate position, thus it is described that we might be in the mode of goodness , passion or ignorance , these modes determin our subsequent births .
infact all animals should be treated equaly with respect for they are allso sentient beings , and should we kick a dog for no good reason then in some way we will be unfairly kicked in future life !!!
...to be continued ...
ratikala
Istha gosthi
or a simliar fate !
there is no gods punishment , ultimately we punish ourselves !
so ignorant people are not helping god , the are simply being ignorant !!!!
which it is not
as with the analogy of children fighting , one day the child stops , he realizes , this hurts why am I doing it ???
I was born in a meat eating family , in a culture that drinks alcahol , yet as I grew up I saw the un nececary suffering so I stoped , my sister in the same situation did not , well not in this life time , mabe in her next
, we each take our time , but suddenly something in the thinking or the realizing happens , and change comes about .there is allways the posibility of a turning point , like what isnt making sence today , suddenly clicks , that is krsna's mercy , that is his will , that we acheive understanding . he keeps explaining , we keep missunderstanding , but suddenly it clicks , we wake up !It perpetuates a cycle, the foundation of which is wrongdoing; it's like a
catch-22. I'm having a very hard time making sense out of that (can you
tell? lol!
asking questions is all part of waking up , geting things in focus finding an explanation then refining that explanation until it becomes understanding
then when all the understanding is done you can become a cow or a gopi in goloka what ever you want to be .....in the service of krsna , of corse .... even a fruit a leaf or a flower ..... even peoples ideas of service change and refine and the relationship changes ....
ha ha , hope this makes some sence , it dosent answer all of your questions , but prehaps some
.
ratikala
Istha gosthi
got to be very carefull with this one !!!
only with the corect motivation , only when krsna has sanctioned it !!!
Ratikala, thank you so much for such a great explanation of all this, it was indeed a
huge help.
I still have reservations about waiting until a subsequent life to learn a previous life's
lessons - it just seems it would be more expedient to learn the lessons needed from
within the span of the same lifetime, i.e., whatever harm one inflicts comes
back on them later that same life, when they can still put 2 and 2 together and
realize their mistake, rather than wait for the lesson in the next life when they may
not remember why they're going through it. But that's just where I am at this
phase in the journey -- it could change (I've undergone so many changes spiritually
over recent years that at this point I'm used to it, lol!).
At any rate, it's reassuring to know that it's not in a vindictive or punitive sense on
God's part that these things are said to happen.
I still tend to believe that if there is reincarnation, it runs more on a voluntary basis,
based upon my own beliefs concerning God's redemptive plan for mankind, as well
as a very compelling book I read awhile back titled "Your Soul's Plan: Discovering
the Real Meaning of the Life You Planned Before You Were Born" by Robert
Schwartz. (That book not only made me more open to
the idea of reincarnation, but it also helped to remove the sense of out-of-control
chaos behind the suffering we see in the world... very therapeutic all the way around
)But I think it's probably safe to say, based on what's been shared here, that eternal
hell isn't something one must be concerned with from Hinduism's point of view, as
it's all designed to help us grow upwards spiritually. It resonates well with my own
belief in a Deity who will not permit one soul to be lost, and this is great news!
.