Eternal Life?

[Muffled]

Sorry, that is a big farce.

I am supposed to believe that because you say so. I prefer to believe what Jesus says.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Did I ask you to believe what I said? I stated what I believe. My views are for me, your views are for you.

 

[atanu]

Religions speak of the timelessness of the Divine. God is "eternal". In Christian beliefs, believers are promised "eternal life". But what does that mean? It's generally assumed to mean that as one day passes to the next in a linear progression, that this will continue infinitely into the future beyond our mortal deaths, ages and ages, forever passing behind us, and us forever into the future. I would say it's natural for us to think in terms like this, since that is the experience of our daily realities. But is this what eternal means? Forever marching forward creating a linear timeline?

I would make the case that thinking is confused when it comes the the timelessness of the Divine, that which exists without beginning or end. That timelessness exists in every moment, fully. It's difficult for our minds to think in terms like this as we are always thinking about the future or recalling the past. Yesterday is behind us. Tomorrow is ahead of us. But the overlooked reality is that we only live in the present moment, and thoughts about the past or the future, are only occurring right now, this second, and not anytime in the future or past. All there is is Now.

So what then is Eternal Life? Not something in the future, but something in the present, right now. To be fully present in the moment, not just strictly concentrating on one thing, but mindfully Aware, is to be in that "timelessness". That "Eternal Life", is Now. And when fully Aware, it is seen and experienced as fully, infinitely Present in all things. Eternal Life, is something within everything.

So, drawing from the Christian tradition in the use of that language, I would say that the deeper meaning is not that you keep going on and on forever in a immortal version of yourself, after you have died in this body. I see those as bit of a "hint" at what it is, but seen from the linear, dualist mind. Yet God is timeless, and thus, non-linear. What I hear is the deeper truth, what the metaphor of "life after death" is meant to point to. That is, that "Eternal Life", is the Divine itself. Is it the reality of God. And it is our participation within that, fully in the timeless Now. Aware and Awake.

To me this is the real underlying message of the Christian faith, using dualistic metaphors to speak to reality of the Eternal Life that is timelessly Present, through all ages, without beginning or end, ever and always Now. This is what Enlightenment is. This is what "Salvation" is a metaphor for. "Except you be born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God". You Wake up, and see. You experience Reality fully in the present.

I've just been processing my thoughts lately, which have undergone some radical transformation since my early days introduced to Christian thought through a very narrow, literal, fundamentalist perspective. I just felt inspired at the moment to share a thought I just had, reflecting the evolution of my views from those early days. Thoughts and feedback are encouraged.

A great post. I have a query but. We often talk of ‘Now’ as the timeless presence. Yet, is the ‘Now’ not merely mental and thus in the realm of space-time?

What is the meaning and actual experience of timeless presence?

 

[Windwalker]

A great post. I have a query but. We often talk of ‘Now’ as the timeless presence. Yet, is the ‘Now’ not merely mental and thus in the realm of space-time?

What is the meaning and actual experience of timeless presence?

Good thought-provoking question. You're right. That can be taken in a technical sense, which is what another poster offered in taking a scientific view of the passage of time, measured in some super tiny fractions of time, giving the illusion of an actual "now".

The timeless "Now" moment is a metaphor to speak to the experience of being fully present in the moment, but not just hyper-focused, like a sniper being fully present in the moment as he is about to pull the trigger. Rather, I see it as a metaphor that speaks to seeing everything arising, being part of that, experiencing it as such, without distractions of the mind engaged in thoughts about the past or the future. Fully present. Fully engaged. Fully aware.

To try to understand that scientifically, misses the point. It's not about how long it takes for the synapses to fire. It's about the experience of Freedom and connection with Life itself, without imposing ideas upon it. It's the conscious experience of Life in every moment, rising up in you and the whole world. And that is described as "timeless", which does not mean static and unchanging. I think of it like the sun is always the sun, regardless of the solar flares that rise and fall. It's all the sun.

Not the best way to put it, but it sort of works.

 

[Valjean]

I am supposed to believe that because you say so. I prefer to believe what Jesus says.

But we don't know what Jesus said.

After 2,000 years of storytelling, recopying, cherry picking, exaggeration and tailoring the message to the desired doctrine, it's hard to say what he actually said.

Even after only ten years, well publicized events are misremembered and altered. A one minute game of telephone will yield a different message at the end than at the beginning.
Word-of-mouth history is unreliable, it's hearsay. Written history gets miscopied and deliberately altered, especially when special interests have a dog in the race.

 

[osgart]

Interesting how every moment experienced is the present and the past is a gone memory, and the future unknown and it all happens instantly, and continuously and at a rate of speed, and a rate of effect.

Or Perhaps it's all there in a bubble all at the same time and we are just passing through it all making new waves in a pre-existing time. So after this life, we can go and start at the beginning again and make new waves. Come to think of it that's impossible.

Eternal life is movement and change because it's not a frozen moment. Timelessness is the absence of move and change. Immaterial must be a disjunct phenomenon where physics has little effect. Spaceless where space doesn't matter to existence.

So a physicalist needs a type of space for existence to have existence or it doesn't.

A spiritualist has alternate abstract realities going on for the reason that intelligence must come from intelligence of some kind. So consciousness must exist in an abstract medium. Plato's realm. And there must be a foundational, eternal realm for the reason that existence is temporal without it and could not have bootstrapped itself into existence.

Is there anything new to conceptualize about eternal life?

 

[Trailblazer]

And there must be a foundational, eternal realm for the reason that existence is temporal without it and could not have bootstrapped itself into existence.

I believe that there is a realm in which we continue to exist forever, the spiritual realm of existence. This material realm of existence is just a very small part of our total existence and it is not even real when compared to the spiritual realm.

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 328-329

Is there anything new to conceptualize about eternal life?

My concept of eternal life is not living forever. Rather, eternal life is a quality of life, nearness to God. All souls continue to exist forever, but not all souls have eternal life.

 

[osgart]

I believe that there is a realm in which we continue to exist forever, the spiritual realm of existence. This material realm of existence is just a very small part of our total existence and it is not even real when compared to the spiritual realm.

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 328-329

My concept of eternal life is not living forever. Rather, eternal life is a quality of life, nearness to God. All souls continue to exist forever, but not all souls have eternal life.

And God is loveable because God be the most virtuous. Thus the quality of life is high.

Sign me up Trailblazer!

I'm a realist though on most things. When I meet a God then I'll know a God.

And the universe should be harmony, and moral perfection. As it is the world seems to exist by mere incident. This place must be a totally separate address then where God resides.

Bahullah tries to tell you what you might want to hear about eternal life. That's my thought on it.

 

[Trailblazer]

And God is loveable because God be the most virtuous. Thus the quality of life is high.

Sign me up Trailblazer!

I would if I could an you'd be my first convert.

I'm a realist though on most things. When I meet a God then I'll know a God.

Well then, I guess you will never know a God, because nobody ever gets to meet God.

And the universe should be harmony, and moral perfection. As it is the world seems to exist by mere incident. This place must be a totally separate address then where God resides.

You are right about that because God does not reside on earth, He resides in the realm on high, on His Throne of Glory.

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory. To this every atom of the universe beareth witness, and beyond it the inmates of the realms on high, they that occupy the most exalted seats, and whose names are remembered before the Throne of Glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192

Bahullah tries to tell you what you might want to hear about eternal life. That's my thought on it.

No, that's not it. I am scared to death of living forever in some strange realm I know nothing about, but I trust Baha'u'llah so I believe it will be what He promised...

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.” Gleanings, p. 345

 

[FineLinen]

Religions speak of the timelessness of the Divine. God is "eternal". In Christian beliefs, believers are promised "eternal life". But what does that mean? It's generally assumed to mean that as one day passes to the next in a linear progression, that this will continue infinitely into the future beyond our mortal deaths, ages and ages, forever passing behind us, and us forever into the future. I would say it's natural for us to think in terms like this, since that is the experience of our daily realities. But is this what eternal means? Forever marching forward creating a linear timeline?

I would make the case that thinking is confused when it comes the the timelessness of the Divine, that which exists without beginning or end. That timelessness exists in every moment, fully. It's difficult for our minds to think in terms like this as we are always thinking about the future or recalling the past. Yesterday is behind us. Tomorrow is ahead of us. But the overlooked reality is that we only live in the present moment, and thoughts about the past or the future, are only occurring right now, this second, and not anytime in the future or past. All there is is Now.

So what then is Eternal Life? Not something in the future, but something in the present, right now. To be fully present in the moment, not just strictly concentrating on one thing, but mindfully Aware, is to be in that "timelessness". That "Eternal Life", is Now. And when fully Aware, it is seen and experienced as fully, infinitely Present in all things. Eternal Life, is something within everything.

So, drawing from the Christian tradition in the use of that language, I would say that the deeper meaning is not that you keep going on and on forever in a immortal version of yourself, after you have died in this body. I see those as bit of a "hint" at what it is, but seen from the linear, dualist mind. Yet God is timeless, and thus, non-linear. What I hear is the deeper truth, what the metaphor of "life after death" is meant to point to. That is, that "Eternal Life", is the Divine itself. Is it the reality of God. And it is our participation within that, fully in the timeless Now. Aware and Awake.

To me this is the real underlying message of the Christian faith, using dualistic metaphors to speak to reality of the Eternal Life that is timelessly Present, through all ages, without beginning or end, ever and always Now. This is what Enlightenment is. This is what "Salvation" is a metaphor for. "Except you be born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God". You Wake up, and see. You experience Reality fully in the present.

I've just been processing my thoughts lately, which have undergone some radical transformation since my early days introduced to Christian thought through a very narrow, literal, fundamentalist perspective. I just felt inspired at the moment to share a thought I just had, reflecting the evolution of my views from those early days. Thoughts and feedback are encouraged.

Windwalker: Thank God for the radical transformation of our thoughts from our early beginnings in Him. There are those who are satisfied to dwell in their present experience, but alas, growth requires expansion of thinking and being.

Life into the Lord of glory is one of progressive stages. Each stage requires fresh faith that corresponds to what breaks upon you in that unveiling of Him.

The children of Israel took 40 years traveling to a destination that was 11 days journey. I am becoming painfully aware that my wee experience in Him has required 40 years of His patient waiting.

Everlasting life is not one of simply duration, but quality of life within Him.

"This is everlasting life, that we may know You..."

 

[MNoBody]

Its true that "life" originates with God...but what is this "life" that he gifts to his creatures? Does he give it at conception or with our first breath? Even science has difficulty defining "life"...after all, plants are living things too. What kind of life do plants have?

Is the life that animals experience anywhere near what God gave to us? We alone are made in his image...but why? What is our purpose here?



God gave life to all living things, but its not something he puts into every lifeform individually.
Reproduction is a process that is programmed into all those lifeforms....its in their DNA to survive and reproduce their "kind".....and requires nothing from God to perpetuate that life. It's all automatic....pre-programmed.

Even human life is not the product of God giving breath to individuals......its a process that he put in place from the beginning. We are not the highest lifeforms in existence, but we are the highest on this planet. We are not accident of evolution but created to reflect God's qualities because he placed us here as caretakers. We were to have "in subjection"...all other forms of life, to care for and to make sure that their habitats stayed pristine so that their lives could be a joy as well as a responsibility to us.



Yes, God's spirit animates all life......but we are the only lifeform offered everlasting life. For the rest of creation, life was to be a self-perpetuating cycle.....governed largely by instinct....not needing anything but a watchful eye......but not so, humans. We alone have free will.



I do not doubt that the Genesis account is literal.....just because of its brevity and lack of scientific explanation, doesn't mean that the greatest scientist in existence speaks merely in metaphors. The people to whom he gave the Genesis account were not scientifically minded, so going into detail would have been a waste of space in his instruction manual. Science had thousands of years to catch up.

"Correct scientific understanding" is actually an oxymoronic statement IMO. There is nothing absolutely "correct" about science unless there is proof. A good deal of theoretical science is unproven and based on assumptions, not real facts. So I won't swap the Bible for science because that would just be swapping one unproven theory for another even more unprovable theory. I believe that there is way more evidence for creation than there will ever be for evolution. Science is not my religion.



Solomon's lament seems to be focused on why humans have a finite existence when God's word says that they are superior to all other lifeforms. What was the point of death if we are made in God's image? God doesn't die, so why should we? Why give us a fear of death when no other creature has it?

Animals have no concept of death....they live "now" and when death comes they have no preparation for it, but nor do they spend time worrying about it, like we do. We are the only creatures who can contemplate our own death.....that seems cruel if death was meant to be part of the scheme of things....? Why is there grief and mourning?

The ancient Jews had no belief in an afterlife in heaven; they believed in the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth after the appearance of their Messiah....so everlasting life as described in Genesis was a puzzle to him. (Genesis 3:22-24)
He knew Messiah was coming, but he had no details about what his coming would accomplish. Jewish expectations were not met in Jesus Christ, so they rejected him. But Jesus supplied more details about the Kingdom of God and what it would accomplish. It was an unfolding mystery. (Romans 16:25-27)



Putting 'eternity into the hearts' of mankind just reinforces the idea that we cannot accommodate the thought of not being here. We alone are designed for unending life......it is something we lost right at the beginning, so to dismiss Genesis as myth, loses all the reasons for why Jesus came, what his death meant, why there was a need for a Kingdom, and why we find death so repugnant.



That doesn't mean that it was meant to happen...the Bible explains why we die....and why no human has ever lived a thousand years. God told the humans that they would die in the "day" that they ate the forbidden fruit. (2 Peter 3:8) A thousand years is a "day" to God.



Are you suggesting reincarnation? There is no such teaching in the Bible. It teaches "resurrection" which is a restoration of life....a return to the life you had before, as the person you were before....only without the things that made you suffer. The first thing Jesus did on many occasions, before he taught people, was to cure them of their illnesses.....that made their concentration a whole lot better so that they could take in what he was teaching them....and they had a foregleam of what life could be without pain. (Revelation 21:3-4)



You think its just poetry? I find that rather sad....TBH.



I find just the opposite....I find the science to be godless, leading people to lack faith rather than having it built up. To most people today, science is their 'religion'.....It's a pathetic swap IMO....but it tells God who still has faith.



Again...who says? God does not lie. There are metaphors...but you have to be able to discern the difference. The Bible itself explains which is which. You can't make something into a metaphor just because you can't explain it.



Jesus resurrected some people when he walked the earth....a couple of his apostles did too.
But the one thing that was outstanding in the resurrections that Jesus performed, was that he gave those ones back to their families. We are not supposed to be separated from the people we love.

You can wave away anything you wish with "pie-in-the-sky" explanations, but no human imaginings can alter the truth.

We have a purpose here and God never intended for that purpose to be sidelined, even though it might have been sidetracked for while.....what God starts, he finishes. (Isaiah 55:11) And he has all the time in the world to do it.

just a thought, no dispute.....but if animals have no conception of death, then why do they fight so hard for life?
they aren't merely some program running around for man's amusement, and are as alive as people are, albeit in a different state.

 

[MNoBody]

The "past" lives only in memory
the "future" is only seen in the imagination
the present is the only aspect of reality one will ever really "know"
since the other states are abstract paintings on a cave wall.
eternity is a word that was minted/coined to express the idea of perpetual cycles [etymologically]

 

[Aupmanyav]

Life into the Lord of glory is one of progressive stages. Each stage requires fresh faith that corresponds to what breaks upon you in that unveiling of Him.

There are no lord or 'my lady'. Human body disintegrate on death and leaves nothing else but dust. Everlasting life is only for atoms and energy. They are eternal.

 

[Aupmanyav]

He resides in the realm on high, on His Throne of Glory.

Where? Wooden or metal throne?
thy, hath, beareth, proffereth, bestoweth, conferreth,
From another post: uniteth, dreameth, striveth, cometh, findeth,
Funny translation. Did not Shoghi know modern English? He married a Canadian lady.
What was he trying to do by using 14th Century English? Show-off?

 

[Aupmanyav]

What is the meaning and actual experience of timeless presence?

Timeless presence is when you understand the universe. When you know what you are, a bundle of atoms and nothing more. Understand relativity, probability, chaos, randomness, uncertainty, quantum mechanics. It does not require one to be a scientist. Many people, even of science, fail to understand it and accept false idea of God and his messengers, etc.

 

[Windwalker]

There are no lord or 'my lady'. Human body disintegrate on death and leaves nothing else but dust. Everlasting life is only for atoms and energy. They are eternal.

Is that what you think, or what your atoms think?

 

[Trailblazer]

just a thought, no dispute.....but if animals have no conception of death, then why do they fight so hard for life?

Some veterinarians call my cats fighting for life instinct but I know it is more than that. I know they have a will and they want to live. I know that because I am bonded to all of them in spirit and love and I have communicated with their spirits after they died physically.

they aren't merely some program running around for man's amusement, and are as alive as people are, albeit in a different state.

I believe animals are just as valuable as humans but sadly, for some people animals are just for their own amusement.

 

[MNoBody]

Some veterinarians call my cats fighting for life instinct but I know it is more than that. I know they have a will and they want to live. I know that because I am bonded to all of them in spirit and love and I have communicated with their spirits after they died physically.

I believe animals are just as valuable as humans but sadly, for some people animals are just for their own amusement.

well, we agree about a few things then.

 

[Trailblazer]

Where? Wooden or metal throne?

There is no physical throne. Throne is just a word that is used to mean that God resides like a king, in His Own high place.

 

[Trailblazer]

well, we agree about a few things then.

I'm glad, as animals are my life.
(Aside from this forum of course.)