Eternal Life?

[MNoBody]

I'm glad, as animals are my life.
(Aside from this forum of course.)

Lately mine as well, since our cat exploded with kittens..... I get swarmed while mousing around on the computer by the pack

 

[Deeje]

just a thought, no dispute.....but if animals have no conception of death, then why do they fight so hard for life?
they aren't merely some program running around for man's amusement, and are as alive as people are, albeit in a different state.

I like questions...so thanks for asking.

I asked this question too a long time ago.....the answer, given by science actually, reveals a "fight or flight" response in most sentient creatures. Its a survival mechanism, programmed instinctively rather than decided upon by the creature in question. They respond in the moment....because animals live in the present...they have no concept of the future, but they can learn some things from past experience.

If an animal is going to be prey for another creature, at least they should have a fighting chance not to be someone's lunch.

I am wondering if animals preying on other animals may have taken place at the same time that humans were given permission to eat flesh, since vegetation was given to all creature in the beginning as food. (Genesis 1:30) Some of the world's most powerful animals are not carnivores, but are still herbivores. Only after the flood did humans become meat eaters.

In the Bible, we see that the 'fear of man' had to be instilled in animals, that would now serve as food for them. (Genesis 9:2) Prior to the flood, the animals did not need to fear man but as a survival response, now the animals would have a chance to escape. This made hunting more challenging....but maybe for both man and beast...?

 

[Deeje]

Is there anything new to conceptualize about eternal life?

Well, I found something entirely new when I studied the Bible. I was raised with the concept that everlasting life had to be experienced in spirit form....the Bible opened up the possibility that everlasting life (as opposed to immortality...they are completely different concepts in scripture) was possible in mortal flesh.

Considering Genesis in a new way made me realize that the first humans were offered everlasting life in the flesh. There was no death mentioned at all except as a penalty for disobedience. Therefore no disobedience would have meant no sin or death. Only sin brings death. (Romans 5:12)

There was a "tree of life" in the garden that the humans could freely access......and this is what would have kept them alive and perpetually young......access to that tree was denied after that stole what belonged to God.

According to the Bible, God has been working on a way to bring us back to Eden, but first we needed a lesson in how to drive free will and to use it to obey the Creator rather than to indulge our own wants.

 

[Trailblazer]

Lately mine as well, since our cat exploded with kittens..... I get swarmed while mousing around on the computer by the pack

We have no kittens presently, but we have nine Persian cats and that is a handful, especially because two are very old and need a lot of care for their kidney disease.

We also have one outdoor cat that used to be feral and we call her "outdoor kitty."
We also have a boatload of raccoons and squirrels and birds that we feed and water.

 

[Ancient Soul]

A great post. I have a query but. We often talk of ‘Now’ as the timeless presence. Yet, is the ‘Now’ not merely mental and thus in the realm of space-time?

What is the meaning and actual experience of timeless presence?

One time as a child I went down to the neighborhood swimming hole and sat down just a little ways from the edge of the bank to see if anything would come out if I just waited long enough. It was completely barren of any signs of life. After a while some minnows came to look for food along the bottom. Then some small sunfish came into the pool. Then while watching the two schools of fish, I suddenly realized that a painted turtle was scrounging for food along the bottom also. Next I noticed that some mussels were starting to come out of the sand in one area. Looking back into the deeper water were some suckers and a trout. Then some eels were coming out of the sand where there was some eel grass, and the blended in with the grass perfectly, with their tails fixed into the sand they waved around in the current flow just like the grass, waiting for something to come close enough to nab. When I looked back the mussels had their mouths completely out and their gills were waving in the water. By then even MORE fish were swimming around everywhere. Even all kinds of water insects were swimming around. I was so mesmerized by all the life swimming around in that once barren pool I lost all track of time. Everything stood still at the moment, that's all that seemed to exist, that very moment and nothing else. But for some reason I suddenly thought that it might be getting late, maybe dinner time, I didn't know and had no watch back then, so suddenly got up to go home worried that I would be late for dinner. And in a FLASH everything in that pool of water completely disappeared into their hiding places, POOF, GONE! Now as barren of life as when I came. And although it only seemed like a few minutes went by, it was more like 5 HOURS!!

So that's about the best example I can think of to answer your question.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Timeless presence is when you understand the universe.

Addendum: Drop all pretense.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Its true that "life" originates with God...but what is this "life" that he gifts to his creatures? Does he give it at conception or with our first breath? Even science has difficulty defining "life"...after all, plants are living things too. What kind of life do plants have?

Is the life that animals experience anywhere near what God gave to us? We alone are made in his image...but why? What is our purpose here?

I thought your divine purpose was to go around freaking everyone out with all your doom and gloom demonic riddled posts.

Yes, God's spirit animates all life......but we are the only lifeform offered everlasting life. For the rest of creation, life was to be a self-perpetuating cycle.....governed largely by instinct....not needing anything but a watchful eye......but not so, humans. We alone have free will.

Hogwash!

ALL living beings have souls that cannot be destroyed = "everlasting life".

And while most people like to think of themselves as "above" all the other beings they call creatures/animals, they are not much better.

Most people are preoccupied with indulging in sex (procreating), eating, looking out for only themselves, are territorial, always fighting with others, killing each other for the stupidest of reasons, etc, etc, etc...

Are you suggesting reincarnation? There is no such teaching in the Bible. It teaches "resurrection" which is a restoration of life....a return to the life you had before, as the person you were before....only without the things that made you suffer. The first thing Jesus did on many occasions, before he taught people, was to cure them of their illnesses.....that made their concentration a whole lot better so that they could take in what he was teaching them....and they had a foregleam of what life could be without pain. (Revelation 21:3-4)

Using mythology to "prove" something is futile. Facts are the only thing of merit.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is that what you think, or what your atoms think?

Thinking is the result of an action of a bunch of atoms. Yes, it is the atoms that think.
What am I without the atoms that constitute me? I exist because of them.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. and I have communicated with their spirits after they died physically.

Does it happen frequently or occasionally? That is a new revelation, Trailblazer.
Seems you are even now not out of woods. People with symptoms should continue their medication.

Throne is just a word that is used to mean that God resides like a king, in His Own high place.

High place also is a word. What you are saying is just a word game. That is what your Iranian preacher and his progeny also did.

 

[Trailblazer]

Does it happen frequently or occasionally? That is a new revelation, Trailblazer.

I have used animal communicators to communicate to my cats who have passed on to the spirit world for the last 20 years, off and on. I used to use them more often but lately only on certain occasions.

High place also is a word. You are playing word games.

I am not playing word games because I am not playing games. I am just explaining what I believe certain words mean. On His Throne means God is elevated to a high place, far above us.

 

[Windwalker]

Thinking is the result of an action of a bunch of atoms. Yes, it is the atoms that think.
What am I without the atoms that constitute me? I exist because of them.

But are they you, or the atoms of your body? Can you demonstrate consciousness in atoms, btw?

 

[ppp]

But are they you, or the atoms of your body? Can you demonstrate consciousness in atoms, btw?

You know that the combination and interaction of objects produce effects and processes that are not found in the individual objects, right?

 

[Windwalker]

You know that the combination and interaction of objects produce effects and processes that are not found in the individual objects, right?

I do yes. Emergentism.

 

[ppp]

I do yes. Emergentism.

I don't know what emergentism is supposed to be.

 

[Windwalker]

I don't know what emergentism is supposed to be.

In philosophy, emergentism is the belief in emergence, particularly as it involves consciousness and the philosophy of mind, and as it contrasts (or not) with reductionism. A property of a system is said to be emergent if it is a new outcome of some other properties of the system and their interaction, while it is itself unexpected and different from them.[1] Emergent properties are not identical with, reducible to, or deducible from the other properties. The different ways in which this independence requirement can be satisfied lead to variant types of emergence.

Emergentism | Introduction to Philosophy.​

I pointed that out to say that consciousness cannot be reduced to atom. I asked him is it you or your atoms speaking, as a way to point out that a materialistic reductionism is a bit fallacious.

 

[ppp]

I pointed that out to say that consciousness cannot be reduced to atom. I asked him is it you or your atoms speaking, as a way to point out that a materialistic reductionism is a bit fallacious.

I am not talking about philosophy, Windwalker. I am talking about the observable fact that the combination and interaction of objects produce effects and processes that are not found in the components. Color, mass, wetness, economy and weather are not philosophical propositions.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But are they you, or the atoms of your body? Can you demonstrate consciousness in atoms, btw?

Consciousness also depends on these atoms. When the system formed by these atoms fails, consciousness also fails or ends. This something to understand. Are there no cases of loss of consciousness?

I pointed that out to say that consciousness cannot be reduced to atom. I asked him is it you or your atoms speaking, as a way to point out that a materialistic reductionism is a bit fallacious.

Fallacious, in what way? Yes, speech also depends on these atoms which form brain and vocal apparatus in the body, voice box, lungs, etc.

 

[Windwalker]

I am not talking about philosophy, Windwalker. I am talking about the observable fact that the combination and interaction of objects produce effects and processes that are not found in the components. Color, mass, wetness, economy and weather are not philosophical propositions.

Emergentism is part of systems theory and the complexity sciences. While it's listed as a philosophy, it's a scientific philosophy. It's as opposed to the scientific philosophy of materialism or reductionism. Reductionism is a philosophical view as well. It's not different in that way. So you're citing one or the other in how you saying things, like consciousness can be reduced to atoms. That's the philosophy of reductionism. Emergentism says it cannot be reduced.

Here's a deeper article on what it is and how the sciences look at these things differently. I actually hear what you are saying as emergentism. I was agreeing with you. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/properties-emergent/

 

[ppp]

I am not talking about philosophy, Windwalker. I am talking about the observable fact that the combination and interaction of objects produce effects and processes that are not found in the components. Color, mass, wetness, economy and weather are not philosophical propositions.

Emergentism is part of systems theory and the complexity sciences. While it's listed as a philosophy, it's a scientific philosophy. It's as opposed to the scientific philosophy of reductionism. Reduction is a philosophical view as well. So you're citing one or the other in how you saying things, like consciousness can be reduced to atoms. That's the philosophy of reductionism. Emergentism says it cannot be reduced.

No. You are are just trying to pigeon hole me into a label that you feel comfortable arguing against. And I mean that literally. You are arguing against the label, rather than responding to what I said.

I don't know if consciousness can be reduce to atoms or leptons or wonderflonium. What I do know is that people who complain about consciousness being viewed as a product of a physical system, generally do not complain about color, mass, wetness, economy or weather being such. Why not?

Here. Let me not lump you in with generic people and ask you directly. Do you have an issue with color, mass, wetness, economy or weather being the product of physical components that do not have said respective attributes?

 

[Windwalker]

No. You are are just trying to pigeon hole me into a label that you feel comfortable arguing against. And I mean that literally. You are arguing against the label, rather than responding to what I said.

I have no idea what this is about. You misunderstood what emergentism was, saying you weren't interested in philosophy. We were talking about science, and that what it is. Pigeon hole you into what? I was correcting you. Not labeling you. I don't really know what you believe, but it sounds like what I was saying, which I understand as emertetism, in the scientific sense. If you are saying the same thing as me, then you agree with what emergentism talks about. Things cannot be reduced to the component parts, like understanding a tornado is not done by studying dust. That's emergence.

I don't know if consciousness can be reduce to atoms or leptons or wonderflonium. What I do know is that people who complain about consciousness being viewed as a product of a physical system, generally do not complain about color, mass, wetness, economy or weather being such. Why not?

Here. Let me not lump you in with generic people and ask you directly. Do you have an issue with color, mass, wetness, economy or weather being the product of physical components that do not have said respective attributes?

No I don't have a problem with it. I believe everything is interconnected, and systems emerge out of component parts that become something novel, that cannot be reduced back down to their component parts. They transcend, but include their parts. And all of these systems interact with other systems, and so you have systems within systems, interacting and influencing and directing the whole. I see these things holistically, so everything is included, and nothing above discarded in looking downward. You can't understand Shakespeare by looking at a quark alone.

The why of that, has to do with perception. Does this address your concerns?