Eternity Alone

[F1fan]

I find biblical Christianity extremely plausible and rational.

The indocrinated tend to think so. Critical thinkers disagree. No Christian can explain how anything in Christianity is plausibel and rational.

No believer in religious lore does so based on facts and sound reasoning.

But, anyway, why would God be a sociopath for allowing people to live separate from Him if they don’t want to live with Him?

LOL, as if hell is just some other county to live in to not bump into family you don't get along with. No, hell is described as eternal punsiment. That you minimize this suggests you feel some shame in it. Sociopath.

From my perspective, God would be the opposite since a sociopath is antisocial.

Yet your God created hell, according to your dogma. So not loving at all, but a sociopath. No sane person would create a hell and do that to ordinary people.

God on the other hand created the human race to interact with and to live in loving relationship for eternity.

Like pets. And some pets he gives defects and cancer, and some quite young. and many of them die, if not for doctors. Socioopath.

That doesn’t sound very antisocial.

Not when you ignore the inconvenient details.

Hell wasn’t even originally for human beings, rather the devil and fallen angels who are intent on destroying humans.

So now hell is worse than just being separatated from God. And odd that God couldn't foresee the future.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think people who want to find God will not end up without God. As for the rest, they didn’t want to be with God in the first place.

Yea because God is a person's own exclusive mental avatar, so one person's God living in their mind is certainly not someone else's God.

 

[Alien826]

I think in a place void of God, the Source of love and relationships, then all who are there will be totally alone with only themselves forever. Earth is now blessed with God’s abundance of love, light, goodness, beauty and care in spite of the damage caused by sin. Separation from the source of all these will be nothing but emptiness. That’s my perspective.

That's interesting.May I pursue it further?

You seem to be saying that all these good things depend on the presence of God. Does that mean that we are incapable of say love when we are not in the presence of God? To put it another way, these things are like air. We don't produce it, but we need it to breathe, and while we are on Earth it is all around us so we are OK so long as we don't go into space? Is that correct?

Adding the next step, if you say "no" to that, it would involve God's actively taking away from us our capacity to love, appreciate beauty and so on. No?

 

[InChrist]

The indocrinated tend to think so. Critical thinkers disagree. No Christian can explain how anything in Christianity is plausibel and rational.

No believer in religious lore does so based on facts and sound reasoning.

Seems pretty easy to me to see the rationale of the biblical message. The Bible says God created a good world; plenty of evidence around of good and beauty in the world. The Bible says sin corrupted and damaged everyone and all creation. I see evidence of damage and bad things occurring; sickness, heartache, cruelty, wars, death, etc. The Bible also says humanity and this world need a Savior and Redeemer. Sounds plausible and reasonable to me, plus being easy enough for anyone to understand.

LOL, as if hell is just some other county to live in to not bump into family you don't get along with. No, hell is described as eternal punsiment. That you minimize this suggests you feel some shame in it. Sociopath.

Yet your God created hell, according to your dogma. So not loving at all, but a sociopath. No sane person would create a hell and do that to ordinary people.

I don’t think of hell as a place God created to be awful. It is awful due to the fact of God’s absence. It’s simply a place void and empty of God’s light, goodness, and love, but that’s what makes it awful, dark, and unbearable . The scriptures are plain and clear that God desires everyone to live in His presence enjoying love, beauty, peace, and joy. But no one will be forced. So anyone who ends up experiencing the torment of hell does so by their own choice and rejection of God’s love and goodness.

 

[InChrist]

That's interesting.May I pursue it further?

You seem to be saying that all these good things depend on the presence of God. Does that mean that we are incapable of say love when we are not in the presence of God? To put it another way, these things are like air. We don't produce it, but we need it to breathe, and while we are on Earth it is all around us so we are OK so long as we don't go into space? Is that correct?

Adding the next step, if you say "no" to that, it would involve God's actively taking away from us our capacity to love, appreciate beauty and so on. No?

I believe humans are capable of love because we were created in the image of God, though we have been infected by sin. I also believe that at this present time our world is sustained and blessed with God’s care, provision, beauty and love poured out on believers or non-believers everywhere. In hell God’s presence and provision will be absent.
Does that answer your questions?

 

[Alien826]

I believe humans are capable of love because we were created in the image of God, though we have been infected by sin. I also believe that at this present time our world is sustained and blessed with God’s care, provision, beauty and love poured out on believers or non-believers everywhere. In hell God’s presence and provision will be absent.
Does that answer your questions?

One last question.

I'm a reasonably moral person (by my own standards of course) but have no belief in God or Jesus as "savior". By your beliefs, I'm headed for Hell.

Will I still essentially be "me", with my character unchanged?

Will I find Hell to be the same as Earth, given my lack of belief and salvation now? Or will it be worse (in terms of my overall happiness, contentment or whatever) and if so how? I can imagine being unhappy at discovering that I've missed out on something better, but otherwise?

 

[InChrist]

One last question.

I'm a reasonably moral person (by my own standards of course) but have no belief in God or Jesus as "savior". By your beliefs, I'm headed for Hell.

Will I still essentially be "me", with my character unchanged?

Will I find Hell to be the same as Earth, given my lack of belief and salvation now? Or will it be worse (in terms of my overall happiness, contentment or whatever) and if so how? I can imagine being unhappy at discovering that I've missed out on something better, but otherwise?

I believe that everyone is headed to hell because all fall short of God’s glory; His perfect love, goodness and morality. I don’t see how it could be any other way, since created beings are less than the Creator as far as nature and abilities. That’s the reason I see God has provided a way of transformation or being born again to new eternal life through Christ.

I believe you will still be who you are; your own unique person. But I think all the distractions, excuses, illusions people have in this world and use to create an image about their own goodness will be removed in eternity.
I don’t believe there will be any happiness whatsoever in hell.

 

[Spice]

I believe that everyone is headed to hell because all fall short of God’s glory; His perfect love, goodness and morality. I don’t see how it could be any other way, since created beings are less than the Creator as far as nature and abilities. That’s the reason I see God has provided a way of transformation or being born again to new eternal life through Christ.

I believe you will still be who you are; your own unique person. But I think all the distractions, excuses, illusions people have in this world and use to create an image about their own goodness will be removed in eternity.
I don’t believe there will be any happiness whatsoever in hell.

I see this as being another check in the box for hell (and heaven) being right here on earth as we make them to be; still determined by the distance or closeness to the essence of "God." And that essence is simply love.

 

[InChrist]

Yes,

I see this as being another check in the box for hell (and heaven) being right here on earth as we make them to be; still determined by the distance or closeness to the essence of "God." And that essence is simply love.

Yes, I think our attitude and closeness to God can impact our time on earth. But what about those who are persecuted, attacked or lose loved ones and homes at the hands of terrorists? Or people who lose everything in an earthquake or tornado? Can they just create heaven on earth in the midst of such circumstances?
And what do you think happens after this lifetime on earth?

 

[Spice]

Yes,

Yes, I think our attitude and closeness to God can impact our time on earth. But what about those who are persecuted, attacked or lose loved ones and homes at the hands of terrorists? Or people who lose everything in an earthquake or tornado? Can they just create heaven on earth in the midst of such circumstances?
And what do you think happens after this lifetime on earth?

As I've stated previously I believe after this lifetime on earth our soul will be paired with another body, another personality, another situational life where we will receive our rewards and pay our debts thus far accumulated.

In response to the people who are living in hell created by others, they can still find bits of heaven to sustain them and strengthen them. Heaven is love. Think of the White Hats that dig the wounded and dead out of the rubble. Think of the doctors and nurses, the aid truck providers, the mothers and fathers, grandparents and neighbors who provide comfort and hope. There is definitely heaven found if you're seeking the REAL heaven and not some unprovable Utopia of mythology.

As Jesus said, the Kingdom is in our midst. . . if you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

 

[InChrist]

As I've stated previously I believe after this lifetime on earth our soul will be paired with another body, another personality, another situational life where we will receive our rewards and pay our debts thus far accumulated.

In response to the people who are living in hell created by others, they can still find bits of heaven to sustain them and strengthen them. Heaven is love. Think of the White Hats that dig the wounded and dead out of the rubble. Think of the doctors and nurses, the aid truck providers, the mothers and fathers, grandparents and neighbors who provide comfort and hope. There is definitely heaven found if you're seeking the REAL heaven and not some unprovable Utopia of mythology.

As Jesus said, the Kingdom is in our midst. . . if you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Okay, thanks for clarifying. I guess I didn’t entirely catch what you said before. So you if I understand correctly, you believe in karma and reincarnation.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

That is why rational minds don't believe in ideas unless there is convincing evidence, and is plausible. Christianity isn't plausible.

I agree with you, and, as a former Christian, I refer to what you are saying as "removing the rose-colored glasses." I believe this is what helped me better understand the Bible while I was deconverting from Christianity. It was a genuine reexamination of my beliefs, which eventually led me to renounce my belief and faith in God and abandon my Christian faith. My deconversion slowly began as I was training to be a street preacher and an evangelism team leader. However, my questions and doubts about God, Jesus, and the Bible became even more substantial while I was assisting my nephew in obtaining his Master of Theological Studies (MTS) degree in order to become an ordained minister. In fact, our comprehensive reading and study of the Bible and Christian theology led us both to deconvert from Christianity. During my thirty years as a devout Christian, I genuinely believed that reading and studying the Bible on a daily basis would deepen my Christian faith, yet my thorough reading and study of the Bible gradually caused me to no longer believe in God, Jesus, and the Bible. I essentially studied my way out of my beliefs, which eventually led me to renounce my belief in God and my Christian faith.

Except that 1. it's an absurd idea, 2. that nowhere in the Bible is it stated, 3. if it was a true thing then the God that created it is more of a sociopath than already written about in the Bible.

If you were an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent god, as the Bible claims that the Abrahamic God is, would you create a man and a woman knowing that they would disobey you after you deliberately used a talking serpent to tempt them to take a bite of a forbidden fruit that you explicitly instructed them not to do? Would you then punish them for their disobedience (as you knew would happen) and the serpent for doing what you knew it would do? Would you also unjustly punish and curse the rest of humanity with a sinful nature for this man and woman's disobedience? Would you devise a plan for ruthlessly torturing and crucifying your own divine son to redeem the humans you created, knowing that they would become morally corrupt?

According to the creation story, God not only created Adam and Eve knowing that they would disobey him, but he also deliberately tempted them with a talking serpent, punished them for their disobedience (which he knew would happen), and also punished the serpent for doing what he knew it would do. He then unjustly cursed the rest of humanity with a sinful nature for the sin of Adam and Eve, and devised a sinister plan to brutally kill his own son by torturing and crucifying him in order to atone for his mistake of creating humanity with the foreknowledge that they would become morally corrupt.

If he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and ever-present, as the Bible claims, then surely he would know better than to create Adam and Eve (and the rest of humanity), knowing that he would later regret creating humanity and repopulate the planet with the same morally flawed humans that he just annihilated in a global flood. According to Genesis 6:6, he regretted creating humans as well as every animal, every creature that creeps on the ground, and the birds of the air. Thus, he carried out his plan to annihilate humanity in a global flood, with the exception of the devout Noah and his family (Genesis 6:7-8).

In accordance with what the Bible states, it is my opinion that God was morally depraved (sinful, evil, sadistic) to first create Adam and Eve knowing that they would disobey him and that he would punish them for their disobedience; second, he punished and cursed Satan (the serpent), despite using Satan to carry out his nefarious plan to tempt Adam and Eve into disobeying him; third, punish and curse the rest of humanity with a sinful nature because of Adam and Eve's disobedience against him, despite the fact that the rest of humanity had nothing to do with it; and finally, he brutally tortured and killed his own son to "redeem" humanity for behaving exactly the way he knew they would behave before he created Adam and Eve. I think that is truly evil (Isaiah 45:7).

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

The indocrinated tend to think so. Critical thinkers disagree. No Christian can explain how anything in Christianity is plausibel and rational.

No believer in religious lore does so based on facts and sound reasoning.

I know from personal experience that renouncing a sincerely held belief in God and Christian indoctrination can be frightening. I believed in God for forty years, so it was frightening to me, but I eventually learned how to think for myself and how to stand on my own two feet. I've also learned that I don't need to believe in God in order to be a good person, make moral decisions, and take care of myself and my family. I see my former belief as nothing more than an emotional crutch that was detrimental to my mental health and well-being. And I'm absolutely convinced that I'm far better off in my life now that I've renounced my belief in God and my Christian faith. It was a liberating experience that has profoundly changed my life. I wish I had done this years ago.

It was very difficult for me to forsake my Christian faith and let go of my belief in God. It was a matter of being completely honest with myself. I found the courage within myself to face my reality and let go of my Christian beliefs. I eventually learned how to care for myself and my family without feeling the need to rely on my faith in God. I realized that my faith in God was nothing more than false hope and an emotional crutch. I understood that if I was ever going to heal emotionally and change my life for the better, I needed to let go of this detrimental crutch that was ruining my life. I had to let go of it all.

There is a scripture that states, "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart" (Jeremiah 29:13). Well, I genuinely believed in God and sought him with all my heart for forty years, but I never found him. I did, however, find disappointment, sadness, fear, confusion, and a constant feeling of hopelessness during the years I believed in God and was a devout Christian. I'm elated to say that I'm now free of what I consider to be the entrapment of my Christian faith. So I have no doubt that I am considerably better off in my life now that I have let go of the belief, faith, and false hope I had in God.

 

[Spice]

Okay, thanks for clarifying. I guess I didn’t entirely catch what you said before. So you if I understand correctly, you believe in karma and reincarnation.

Absolutely.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Absolutely.

I also believe in karma and reincaration. As a spiritualist and spirit medium, I believe human spirits can choose to remain earthbound, so it makes sense to me that they can also choose to be born into a new physical life and live again. This is what I believe based on 45 years of experience as a spirit medium.

If you're interested, you can read more about what I believe in my previous posts, which include several additional links.

Post 1:

What is Evidence?

I never spoke for others. I simply list simple facts. Which part of my speech made you think that I speak for others, please point it out. Thanks. Who knows how many pages back. Post the whole thing if you're curious.

www.religiousforums.com

Post 2:

God and Death

If god is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, can god die? food for thought? bon appétit bébé! Not every sentence ending in a question mark is a true question.

www.religiousforums.com

Finally, I thought that you would find these article interesting. The first one has a link to the Near-Death Experience Research Foundation.

Near-Death Experiences Research Has Doctor Convinced of Afterlife

Hospice nurse shares the one thing 'almost everyone' sees before they die

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You can certainly believe or not believe whatever you choose. Jesus spoke about eternal punishment, outer darkness, etc. more than anyone in the Bible and gave warnings about avoiding such a place as one’s eternal destiny. I believe Him.

Yes, the punishment of ' second death ' a death with No possible resurrection but ' forever destruction' for the wicked - Rev. 21:8
- Psalms 92:7; 104:35; 145:20; Proverbs 2:21-22
Or, as Jeremiah wrote 'perpetual sleep'. No chance of waking up ever again - Jeremiah 51:39,57

 

[URAVIP2ME]

One last question.
I'm a reasonably moral person (by my own standards of course) but have no belief in God or Jesus as "savior". By your beliefs, I'm headed for Hell.
Will I still essentially be "me", with my character unchanged?
Will I find Hell to be the same as Earth, given my lack of belief and salvation now? Or will it be worse (in terms of my overall happiness, contentment or whatever) and if so how? I can imagine being unhappy at discovering that I've missed out on something better, but otherwise?

Even Jesus was headed to hell - see Acts 2:27 - Biblical hell that is. The common temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead
Both Jesus and the OT both teach ' sleep ' (Not pain) in death - Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14
Since the dead know nothing then overall happiness lies in being resurrected back to live life again
On Resurrection Day (Jesus' coming 1000-year day) 'there will be' a resurrection......Acts 24:15
Resurrected with your character unchanged
If counted as righteous then to remain righteous
If counted as unrighteous then to become and remain righteous ( KJV says 'just and unjust' )
Otherwise, if one ends up as wicked they will simply be ' destroyed forever ' - Psalms 92:7; 104:35; 145:20; Proverbs 2:21-22
Only humble meek people will inherit the Earth as Jesus promised us at Matt. 5:5 from Psalms 37:9-11; 22:26
So, if we are alive at Jesus' soon coming time of separation on Earth - Matt. 25:31-34,37 - we want to be counted as one of his 'sheep'

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Yes, the punishment of ' second death ' a death with No possible resurrection but ' forever destruction' for the wicked - Rev. 21:8
- Psalms 92:7; 104:35; 145:20; Proverbs 2:21-22
Or, as Jeremiah wrote 'perpetual sleep'. No chance of waking up ever again - Jeremiah 51:39,57

This is certainly one interpretation of the biblical accounts of the afterlife.

However, let's not forget Hebrews 9:27, which states, "Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment," and 2 Corinthians 5:8, which states, "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." There is also Ecclesiastes 3:21, which asks, "Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?” Then there is Revelation 20:13, which states, "The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done." Furthermore, 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17 and Revelation 20:11–15 both suggest that the souls of believers and unbelievers are sleeping in their graves and awaiting God's judgment in the end times. There are several other verses that describe "soul sleep," such as Daniel 12:2, 2 Chronicles 32:33, 2 Chronicles 33:20, 1 Kings 15:8, 1 Kings 16:28, 2 Kings 13:13, 2 Kings 14:29, and John 11:11–15. These verses seemingly conflict with Hebrews 9:27, which implies that human spirits immediately face God's judgment after death, and also with 2 Corinthians 5:8, which implies that believers are in the presence of Jesus after their death.

Do you believe that the Rich Man and Lazarus parable is just a story that Jesus made up to teach a lesson, or do you think it was based on an actual event that he either witnessed or knew of? The parable states that the rich man cried out to Abraham, pleaded with him, and said, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ He was clearly aware of his torment in Hades ("because I am in agony in this fire"); he recognized both Lazarus and Abraham from a distance, and he fervently pleaded with Abraham to help him.

What do you think about this parable? Is it just a story Jesus told his followers, or was it an actual event that he personally witnessed or knew of?

I think that this is an intriguing parable because, according to Ecclesiastes 9:5, the dead know nothing. Therefore, since this verse implies that the dead know nothing, my questions about Jesus' parable are as follows: Why did he teach a parable about a dead man who not only recognized two other men from afar but also was conscious of his torment in a fire? If the dead know nothing, then how was this rich man even aware of his torment in Hades? How could he have recognized both Abraham and Lazarus from afar? Finally, how could he have pleaded with Abraham and had him reply back to him?

Furthermore, Ecclesiastes 9:5 states that there is no final reward for the dead, and even their names are forgotten. However, this seems to contradict other verses, such as these here, which suggest final rewards in heaven, the writing of people's names in a "Book of Life" that God allegedly possesses (see the verses here), and their names being recorded in heaven (Luke 10:20). Isn't it more accurate to include all of these other afterlife depiction scriptures, too?

 

[Kathryn]

I don't personally believe that God needs or desires a check list or that our eternal destination is some sort of win or lose game. I personally believe that we are all in for a lot of surprises that day (I do believe in an afterlife and a day of atonement or whatever you want to call it). I used to believe that I could "get it wrong" and inadvertently end up separated from Jesus but I don't believe that anymore.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Yet your God created hell, according to your dogma. So not loving at all, but a sociopath. No sane person would create a hell and do that to ordinary people.

I have no qualms about saying that I'm grateful to be free from what I consider to be Christianity's entrapment, because it was a dreadful way of life for me. I truly believe that being a Christian can be detrimental to a person's mental health and emotional well-being. This was certainly the case for both myself and the numerous former Christians I know. To be quite honest, renouncing my Christian faith and belief in God has brought me a lot of comfort because I am no longer afraid of what I believe to be Christianity's fearmongering tactics, such as fear and shame for allegedly sinning against God, fear of his wrath, and fear of going to hell. I can say without a doubt that being a devout Christian was a living nightmare for me, whereas being a Wiccan and druid has been liberating and a positive experience. It is far better for my mental health and emotional well-being. My life is much less stressful now.

It was a gradual process of detoxing from a lifetime of Christian indoctrination, but I've finally experienced inner peace in my life, which is something I never experienced as a Christian. I learned to let go of my fears, such as fearing God, sinning against God, and fearing going to hell. And once I did that, my mental health and emotional well-being significantly improved. My Christianity was deeply ingrained, making it difficult for me to leave. I felt trapped, so I was emotionally bound to it for the majority of my life. Christianity was a prison for me. I felt as if I were imprisoned, but only my prison cell door was always open, and it took me a long time to realize that I could leave whenever I wanted to. I never once felt "freedom in Christ" or genuine peace in my life as a Christian, as other Christians claimed to experience in theirs. So I freed myself from the indoctrination that I had been subjected to after spending the majority of my life trapped in it. I feel no more shame for allegedly sinning against God or for allowing myself to be guilt-tripped by pompous and judgmental Christians accusing me of being a sinner. I no longer fear any wrath or judgment from a sadistic and jealous God, nor do I fear going to hell.

As a Wiccan and druid, I don't feel pressured to obey or appease any particular god, nor do I feel threatened by any god. Other than saving myself from abuse when I was a teenager, I can't think of anything more empowering than finally understanding that I don't have to believe in the biblical God, follow Christianity, or any other deity or religion in order to feel emotionally whole or make moral decisions in my life. To avoid repeating the same mistakes, I keep a positive perspective on my current spiritual beliefs. I'm well aware of the potential emotional consequences of overly trusting in my spiritual beliefs or any god (or other deities). My spiritual beliefs are important to me, but not to the extent that I rely on them or feel like I can't make a moral decision without them. I don't regret my decision to renounce my belief in God and faith in Jesus, as well as leaving Christianity, but I wish that I had found the strength to do so years ago rather than foolishly holding onto the false hope and trust that I had in God. If I had, it would have been much better for me.

The biblical God is portrayed as a loving and merciful heavenly father, but I think of him as being far worse than an abusive parent. Speaking as a former Christian, I think that he is the perfect example of a narcissistic and abusive father who only expresses his warped sense of love to his children whenever they do or say precisely what he wants them to do or say. His frightened children think that if they don't provoke him, then he won't hurt them, but they're not entirely sure because of his violent temper and tendency to lash out when he becomes angry. Therefore, disobeying and upsetting him will result in punishment and hell to pay. This isn't a good relationship built on unconditional love, trust, and respect, but rather a toxic one based on fear and mistrust.