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Eternity Alone

InChrist

Free4ever
I have noticed how a person gets attached to words that are unchangeable in their meaning, especially to words that are related to belief, such as God, Jesus, heavenly kingdom...

The rigid understanding of the word like stone makes the hearts of believers.
Try changing the shape of the word like soft plastic.
For example, humanity for God, for Jesus-Man. example....

I come in the name of humanity!
If you have seen Man, you have also seen humanity, because they are one.

And in humanity are contained all types of age, from baby to old man, accordingly all periods from baby to old man are alive in Man, because they are one!

Inside you, the child you once were is only a memory, but not alive.

Haven't you read that....God is the god of the living, not the dead.
Man can resurrect the dead periods, and what was said... the kingdom of God is inside you, will make sense.
I am attached to words; God’s Words and Jesus the Word. I think it’s reasonable and wisest to take God’s revealed words in a straight, plain manner, allowing scripture to interpret scripture. I want the truth, not my own limited ideas or confusing nonsense about important information pertaining to eternity.

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.” –Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),”

Or the shorter version is…

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, lest it result in nonsense.”
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
But consider, as we don't know but can only join the ancients in contemplation and speculation in seeking comfort and hope, so consider that both "soul sleep" and reincarnation are accurate.
Yeah, but we as a species have moved on from these primitive fears and insecurities. Much of the concepts in Christianity do apveal to the biggest fears humans have, and I suspect they were designed that way. What better way to attract and exploit believers than to offer solutions? In the 21st century these ideas not only lack evidence, but are absurd. None of it makes sense. No rational person hears about Christian concepts and concludes they make sense and are true. Believers are exposed to these ideas and they believe due to conformity to social norms.
Just consider: Jesus was the first Adam who, annointed by God, Christ chosen, went on the journey of regaining Paradise. His mission: to find The Way for humankind after God's promise to Noah and seeing humankind was still not redeemed.
Great fiction. None of it makes sense.
His first reincarnation: Melchizedek, by whom Abraham was found and so began the story of redemption.

Consider, from the time of Noah until Jesus succeeded in conquering the world and dying an honorable and faithful death in perfected humanity, all souls were held asleep in Sheol. But upon Jesus's completion of The Way, as stated in your previous post, he broke free these soul sleepers to arise and be judged and reenter the living so that they might find The Way for themselves.
The Noah flood and the need to have Jesus executed so God would have a payoff for mankind's sins suggests to me an incompetent God, or perhaps a sociopath. I'd say sociopath because the Noah flood was a crime against humanity (assuming it was real, which it wasn't). But since believers think it's all true I am dealing with what they treat as factual, and that suggests very bad things for God.

I've often suggested that Christians treat the Bible stories as symbolic, not literal, as that would allow more of an introspective expereince for the believer, and less absorbtion into a gramework that is immoral and unrealistic.
Elijah, who did not die an earthly life, but was taken up without death, did die in the incarnation of John the Baptist. When Jesus tore down the veil of eternal sleep, (Matthew 27:51-53 "Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.") perhaps the spirit of Elijah/JtB was the first to join Jesus in the heavenly realm perfected. Jesus being "the firstborn of the dead."

This is a little more on how I view the Christian narrative of the Bible. The "freedom" that Jesus brought to mankind was not freedom of sin, we are responsible fir ourselves, but freedom of eternal soul sleep with no possibility of redemption. Jesus Christ found The Way we all can be prepared for "final" judgment if we're willing to work at it -- over and over again.
Have you ever wondered why your God would design this system the way you believe it? Does it really sound perfect?
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Yeah, but we as a species have moved on from these primitive fears and insecurities. Much of the concepts in Christianity do apveal to the biggest fears humans have, and I suspect they were designed that way. What better way to attract and exploit believers than to offer solutions? In the 21st century these ideas not only lack evidence, but are absurd. None of it makes sense. No rational person hears about Christian concepts and concludes they make sense and are true. Believers are exposed to these ideas and they believe due to conformity to social norms.

Great fiction. None of it makes sense.

The Noah flood and the need to have Jesus executed so God would have a payoff for mankind's sins suggests to me an incompetent God, or perhaps a sociopath. I'd say sociopath because the Noah flood was a crime against humanity (assuming it was real, which it wasn't). But since believers think it's all true I am dealing with what they treat as factual, and that suggests very bad things for God.

I've often suggested that Christians treat the Bible stories as symbolic, not literal, as that would allow more of an introspective expereince for the believer, and less absorbtion into a gramework that is immoral and unrealistic.

Have you ever wondered why your God would design this system the way you believe it? Does it really sound perfect?
I'm not sure why you picked up on this two days after its being posted, or why you have jumped on the "let's belittle the stupid Christian" bandwagon. I really thought you had mellowed, @F1fan.

Anyway -- Go back and read my first sentence which includes "as we don't know..."
I speculate, contemplate, look with fresh perspective on a different reading of scripture than mainstream Christians "believe." I never said I believed this scenario, but I do enjoy a great bit of comfort from the mythological stories of the ancients (since no one KNOWS) and prefer my version. My version is still Biblically sound, and matches up with today's scientific position much better than the fallen sinners forgiven by the blood sacrifice of the god in the flesh part of the trinity godhead that will rapture the righteous and destroy the world with those left and send the unrepentant to a firey torture for eternity version. And it also blends a bit more smoothly with the basics of eastern thought, which I also find intriguing, comforting, and hopeful

Lighten up -- it IS all symbolic and open for exploratory interpretation.

Cheers
 

alf

Member
I am attached to words; God’s Words and Jesus the Word. I think it’s reasonable and wisest to take God’s revealed words in a straight, plain manner, allowing scripture to interpret scripture. I want the truth, not my own limited ideas or confusing nonsense about important information pertaining to eternity.
How long will you serve the law, not only you, I'm talking about every person?
The law - the word is a teacher.
Read what it says..

23 But before the time for faith came, the Law kept us all locked up as prisoners until this coming faith should be revealed.
24 And so the Law was in charge of us until Christ came, in order that we might then be put right with God through faith.
25 Now that the time for faith is here, the Law is no longer in charge of us.
26 It is through faith that all of you are God's children in union with Christ Jesus.
27 You were baptized into union with Christ, and now you are clothed, so to speak, with the life of Christ himself.

And you yourself told about that transformation.
having been transformed by Christ will be incorruptible and have the character of Christ.
As it says at the end of the law-letter.

5 Then the one who sits on the throne said, “And now I make all things new!” He also said to me, “Write this, because these words are true and can be trusted.”
6 And he said, “It is done! I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end. To anyone who is thirsty I will give the right to drink from the spring of the water of life without paying for it.
7 Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children.
8 But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practice magic, those who worship idols, and all liars—the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Work on your transformation until you break the law, fear not!
Because when Jesus comes, new things will be created, including a new law.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Yeah, but we as a species have moved on from these primitive fears and insecurities. Much of the concepts in Christianity do apveal to the biggest fears humans have, and I suspect they were designed that way. What better way to attract and exploit believers than to offer solutions? In the 21st century these ideas not only lack evidence, but are absurd. None of it makes sense. No rational person hears about Christian concepts and concludes they make sense and are true. Believers are exposed to these ideas and they believe due to conformity to social norms.

Great fiction. None of it makes sense.

Reading and studying the Bible without the confirmation bias of my Christian indoctrination was what led to my deconversion from Christianity.

The Noah flood and the need to have Jesus executed so God would have a payoff for mankind's sins suggests to me an incompetent God, or perhaps a sociopath. I'd say sociopath because the Noah flood was a crime against humanity (assuming it was real, which it wasn't). But since believers think it's all true I am dealing with what they treat as factual, and that suggests very bad things for God.

I've often suggested that Christians treat the Bible stories as symbolic, not literal, as that would allow more of an introspective expereince for the believer, and less absorbtion into a gramework that is immoral and unrealistic.

Surely, an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God would know better than to create a species that he knew would rebel against him and would later regret creating. He also knew that the first of this species he created, who had no prior knowledge of right or wrong, would fall into temptation after he deliberately tempted them to take a bite of a forbidden fruit that he explicitly instructed them not to do. This God not only punished them for their disobedience, which he was aware of, but he also punished and cursed the serpent for accomplishing what he desired. Furthermore, he punished and cursed the remaining creatures of this species with a fallen nature, causing them to rebel against him. Prior to creating this species, he also knew that he would eventually drown and kill them (with the exception of one family unit) in a global flood due to their moral depravity and rebellion against him. He would then repopulate the earth with the same morally flawed species, as well as ruthlessly torture and kill his own divine son in a brutal and inhumane blood sacrifice to redeem this morally flawed species. Given this creation story's overall narrative, I don't consider this God to be loving, merciful, or just.

Have you ever wondered why your God would design this system the way you believe it? Does it really sound perfect?

Romans 10:8–13 states that salvation awaits anyone who declares with their mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead. Furthermore, their belief in their hearts and their profession of faith in Jesus justify them, and they will not face shame. In fact, verse 13 plainly states, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Furthermore, Ephesians 2:8–9 states, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves; it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." However, there is an apparent loophole in this seemingly hopeful divine promise, such as the stringent implication that a person could lose their salvation and face eternal condemnation if they do not follow God's will.

I'm referring to Matthew 7:21, which states, "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven," and the parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31–46). In this parable, Jesus rewards the "sheep" with eternal life for their good deeds of feeding the hungry, quenching the thirst of the thirsty, welcoming a stranger, clothing the needy, and visiting the sick or those in prison. However, Jesus lambasted the "goats" for failing to feed the hungry, quench the thirst of the thirsty, welcome strangers, clothe the needy, or pay visits to the ill or prisoners. Jesus cursed them and sent them to eternal damnation. Despite being Christians who accepted Jesus as their lord and savior, the "goats" lacked the good works necessary for eternal life. In my opinion, Romans 10:8–13 presents yet another contradictory message in the Bible, asserting that salvation is contingent upon an individual's outward declaration of "Jesus is Lord" and their internal belief in God's resurrection of Jesus. Ephesians 2:8–9 also states, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves; it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." In my opinion, if someone gives you something as a gift but arbitrarily takes it away because you don't follow their rules, then it isn't a gift. I don't consider something a gift if the person who gave it to me can ruthlessly take it away if I don't obey them. It isn't a gift with strings attached.
 

Balthazzar

Christian Evolutionist
I was thinking about the idea of being separated from God the Creator forever. The Bible presents two destinations after life of this earth; one being eternal life in heaven and the other the second death or eternal separation from God/heaven. Some of the terms, descriptions, or what this state of separation will be like, are; lake of fire, everlasting fire, furnace of fire, outer darkness.
The scriptures indicate that this place was prepared for the devil and his fallen angels (Matthew 25:41). So it wasn’t for human beings. The scripture state that …

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is patient toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pete 3:9

Yet, the scriptures also reveal that God is love and desires each person to freely choose to respond to His love and eternity with Him because real love cannot be forced.
I really like alone time, but if God is the sole source of love, loving relationships, light, joy, beauty, and all that is good, then I can not imagine an eternity in the absence of God or all that is good and loving; an eternity entirely alone and separate.

Any thoughts?
If eternity equates to an age or span of time, then I think it's safe to assume that many of us if not all experience this sense of separation. My view is that the reconnect is in the understanding of being one with. This is difficult for some types of people. Everlasting fire, furnace of fire, lake of fire are, imo, references to life under the sun and being blind to our connection via ignorance or disbelief. So, it's a process of coming to terms with our connection and understanding our need for discernment. People can be easily swayed and led in directions that have no basis in reality. The difference between truth and error is that we grow into truth and erroneous thinking is burned away as we live and learn.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
How long will you serve the law, not only you, I'm talking about every person?
The law - the word is a teacher.
Read what it says..

23 But before the time for faith came, the Law kept us all locked up as prisoners until this coming faith should be revealed.
24 And so the Law was in charge of us until Christ came, in order that we might then be put right with God through faith.
25 Now that the time for faith is here, the Law is no longer in charge of us.
26 It is through faith that all of you are God's children in union with Christ Jesus.
27 You were baptized into union with Christ, and now you are clothed, so to speak, with the life of Christ himself.

And you yourself told about that transformation.

As it says at the end of the law-letter.

5 Then the one who sits on the throne said, “And now I make all things new!” He also said to me, “Write this, because these words are true and can be trusted.”
6 And he said, “It is done! I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end. To anyone who is thirsty I will give the right to drink from the spring of the water of life without paying for it.
7 Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children.
8 But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practice magic, those who worship idols, and all liars—the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Work on your transformation until you break the law, fear not!
Because when Jesus comes, new things will be created, including a new law.
I’m not sure what you’re saying, but
I don’t need to think about breaking the law or think about the law at all, because my identity is in Christ. I am a new creation in Christ and live under His grace…

…Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
2 Corinthians 5:17

And no longer a slave to sin….

For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. Romans 6:6-7
 

alf

Member
I’m not sure what you’re saying, but
I don’t need to think about breaking the law or think about the law at all, because my identity is in Christ. I am a new creation in Christ and live under His grace…
"I am" does not exist in the character of Jesus, because "I am" is the one who must die!

Read...
8:35 Whoever has a desire to keep his life, will have it taken from him; and whoever gives up his life because of me and the good news, will keep it.

The spiritual is like a mirror, while you have a form and recognition with a figure that you address with "I am" you are not following the path of Jesus.
You have to give up yourself and your self until it disappears completely.
Then there will be only one question "who am I" just like Jesus asked his disciples....
8:27 And Jesus went out, with his disciples, into the little towns round Caesarea Philippi; and on the way he put a question to his disciples, saying, Who do men say that I am?
8:28 And they made answer, John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but others, One of the prophets.
8:29 And he said to them, But who do you say I am? Peter said in answer, You are the Christ.

Therefore, the way you express yourself does not convince me that you follow Jesus.

When "I am" does not exist, then the law has no power over you, then you are above the law. That is what Paul tells the apostles.
And all of you are under the law, not only the written one but also the secular one, read...
4:8 But at that time, having no knowledge of God, you were servants to those who by right are no gods:
4:9 But now that you have come to have knowledge of God, or more truly, God has knowledge of you, how is it that you go back again to the poor and feeble first things, desiring to be servants to them again?
4:10 You keep days, and months, and fixed times, and years

When "I am" disappears, death is tasted, and in death there is no time.
You serve the "I am" who by nature is not a god and servants of time, you count the days, months and years.
They are weak and bad elements.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I was thinking about the idea of being separated from God the Creator forever. The Bible presents two destinations after life of this earth; one being eternal life in heaven and the other the second death or eternal separation from God/heaven. Some of the terms, descriptions, or what this state of separation will be like, are; lake of fire, everlasting fire, furnace of fire, outer darkness.
The scriptures indicate that this place was prepared for the devil and his fallen angels (Matthew 25:41). So it wasn’t for human beings. The scripture state that …
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is patient toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pete 3:9
Yet, the scriptures also reveal that God is love and desires each person to freely choose to respond to His love and eternity with Him because real love cannot be forced.
I really like alone time, but if God is the sole source of love, loving relationships, light, joy, beauty, and all that is good, then I can not imagine an eternity in the absence of God or all that is good and loving; an eternity entirely alone and separate.
Any thoughts?
I find the definition of the symbolic 'lake of fire' is: second death - Rev. 20:13-14; 21:8
In death there is No life. Jesus and the OT teach unconscious sleep in death - John 11:11-14; Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18
Interesting that you mention the place prepared for the devil and his angels because can a literal fire burn spirit persons aka the devil ____
'Death' itself also ends up in the lake of fire - Rev. 20:14 - can a literal fire do away with death ______
Those who refuse to repent, end up as wicked, will simply be ' destroyed forever ' - Psalms 92:7; 104;35; 145:20; Proverbs 2:22
Eternity for the wicked is a ' perpetual sleep ' - Jeremiah 51:39,57 - of never waking up again from any future life
The wicked thus end up with No time at all, but for the figurative 'sheep' (Matt. 25:37) there will be an eternity of time
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
I find the definition of the symbolic 'lake of fire' is: second death - Rev. 20:13-14; 21:8
In death there is No life. Jesus and the OT teach unconscious sleep in death - John 11:11-14; Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18
Interesting that you mention the place prepared for the devil and his angels because can a literal fire burn spirit persons aka the devil ____
'Death' itself also ends up in the lake of fire - Rev. 20:14 - can a literal fire do away with death ______
Those who refuse to repent, end up as wicked, will simply be ' destroyed forever ' - Psalms 92:7; 104;35; 145:20; Proverbs 2:22
Eternity for the wicked is a ' perpetual sleep ' - Jeremiah 51:39,57 - of never waking up again from any future life
The wicked thus end up with No time at all, but for the figurative 'sheep' (Matt. 25:37) there will be an eternity of time

This is in accordance with your preferred beliefs and biblical interpretation as a Jehovah's Witness. However, as I noted earlier in this thread, your beliefs as a JW are only one interpretation of the biblical accounts of the afterlife. The following is my response to one of your posts expressing what you believe to be true as a Jehovah's Witness. Perhaps you can address my response and answer my questions this time. What is your opinion of all these scriptures?

However, let's not forget Hebrews 9:27, which states, "Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment," and 2 Corinthians 5:8, which states, "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." There is also Ecclesiastes 3:21, which asks, "Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?” Then there is Revelation 20:13, which states, "The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done." Furthermore, 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17 and Revelation 20:11–15 both suggest that the souls of believers and unbelievers are sleeping in their graves and awaiting God's judgment in the end times. There are several other verses that describe "soul sleep," such as Daniel 12:2, 2 Chronicles 32:33, 2 Chronicles 33:20, 1 Kings 15:8, 1 Kings 16:28, 2 Kings 13:13, 2 Kings 14:29, and John 11:11–15. These verses seemingly conflict with Hebrews 9:27, which implies that human spirits immediately face God's judgment after death, and also with 2 Corinthians 5:8, which implies that believers are in the presence of Jesus after their death.

Do you believe that the Rich Man and Lazarus parable is just a story that Jesus made up to teach a lesson, or do you think it was based on an actual event that he either witnessed or knew of? The parable states that the rich man cried out to Abraham, pleaded with him, and said, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ He was clearly aware of his torment in Hades ("because I am in agony in this fire"); he recognized both Lazarus and Abraham from a distance, and he fervently pleaded with Abraham to help him.

What do you think about this parable? Is it just a story Jesus told his followers, or was it an actual event that he personally witnessed or knew of?

I think that this is an intriguing parable because, according to Ecclesiastes 9:5, the dead know nothing. Therefore, since this verse implies that the dead know nothing, my questions about Jesus' parable are as follows: Why did he teach a parable about a dead man who not only recognized two other men from afar but also was conscious of his torment in a fire? If the dead know nothing, then how was this rich man even aware of his torment in Hades? How could he have recognized both Abraham and Lazarus from afar? Finally, how could he have pleaded with Abraham and had him reply back to him?

Furthermore, Ecclesiastes 9:5 states that there is no final reward for the dead, and even their names are forgotten. However, this seems to contradict other verses, such as these here, which suggest final rewards in heaven, the writing of people's names in a "Book of Life" that God allegedly possesses (see the verses here), and their names being recorded in heaven (Luke 10:20). Isn't it more accurate to include all of these other afterlife depiction scriptures, too?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The Rich Man and Lazarus ( keep Matthew 13:35 in mind )
( Not the humble man Lazarus of Luke chapter 11)
We find the symbolic or illustrative Rich Man at Luke 15:2, besides the Rich Man at Luke 16:2, and the Rich Man at Luke 16:14-15, 19-21
The Rich Man in the illustrative parables are: those Money-Loving Pharisees
Thus, the setting Jesus set forth is about those greedy Pharisees
The up-to-this-time Pharisees were exalted by men. Jesus is teaching now is the time for a BIG change in status
( Those Rich Men Pharisees were rich in worldly goods, political influence besides being religious leaders - Matt. 15:9 )
Remember those Pharisees declared proudly they adhered to the Mosaic Law- John 9:13,28-29
Remember too how those Pharisees viewed the ' common people ' ( Like the man Lazarus in Luke chapter 11 )
To the high-minded Pharisees the people were common ' am.ha.a.rets ' - John 7:49
Thus we have the setting: the beggar aka named Lazarus who hungers for spiritual crumbs from the Rich Man's table
Abraham is still asleep in the grave - Hebrews 11:13,39; Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; John 11:11-14
Since the Law and the prophets were until John (the baptist) and Jesus, then both the Rich Man and Lazarus symbolically die.
Both now die to their old former conditions or circumstances to new positions in relationship to God
The spiritually starved or deprived humble Lazarus common-class of people would now have a favored position with God
Jesus was now feeding them a delightful spiritual banquet of spiritual food
Whereas the Rich Man class of people were feeling the 'heat of torment' because of the teachings of Jesus -Matt. 3:7-12
The Rich Man Pharisees had their fill up to this time but Not the common Lazarus-type people - Luke 16:25-26
So, the story is about a dramatic reversal of positions. Remember the old Mosaic Law being replace by the New Covenant
Since Pentecost the great gap between the Rich Man and Lazarus shows Jesus' followers are the ones who now have God's favor or favored position
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
.......................................................................................................................................................................... Ephesians 2:8–9 also states, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves; it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." In my opinion, if someone gives you something as a gift but arbitrarily takes it away because you don't follow their rules, then it isn't a gift. I don't consider something a gift if the person who gave it to me can ruthlessly take it away if I don't obey them. It isn't a gift with strings attached.
I've head of people paying ( free gift ) to someone going to university 'if' they have passing grades
So, "IF" we continue to follow Jesus - 1st John 1:7 ( "IF" )

If a person is first forewarned is that being ruthless if they freely choose to disobey _________ - James 1:13-15
A loving parent might say to a child you can freely have dessert 'if' you first eat dinner. Who would say that is ruthless ______
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
The Rich Man and Lazarus ( keep Matthew 13:35 in mind )
( Not the humble man Lazarus of Luke chapter 11)
We find the symbolic or illustrative Rich Man at Luke 15:2, besides the Rich Man at Luke 16:2, and the Rich Man at Luke 16:14-15, 19-21
The Rich Man in the illustrative parables are: those Money-Loving Pharisees
Thus, the setting Jesus set forth is about those greedy Pharisees
The up-to-this-time Pharisees were exalted by men. Jesus is teaching now is the time for a BIG change in status
( Those Rich Men Pharisees were rich in worldly goods, political influence besides being religious leaders - Matt. 15:9 )
Remember those Pharisees declared proudly they adhered to the Mosaic Law- John 9:13,28-29
Remember too how those Pharisees viewed the ' common people ' ( Like the man Lazarus in Luke chapter 11 )
To the high-minded Pharisees the people were common ' am.ha.a.rets ' - John 7:49
Thus we have the setting: the beggar aka named Lazarus who hungers for spiritual crumbs from the Rich Man's table
Abraham is still asleep in the grave - Hebrews 11:13,39; Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; John 11:11-14
Since the Law and the prophets were until John (the baptist) and Jesus, then both the Rich Man and Lazarus symbolically die.
Both now die to their old former conditions or circumstances to new positions in relationship to God
The spiritually starved or deprived humble Lazarus common-class of people would now have a favored position with God
Jesus was now feeding them a delightful spiritual banquet of spiritual food
Whereas the Rich Man class of people were feeling the 'heat of torment' because of the teachings of Jesus -Matt. 3:7-12
The Rich Man Pharisees had their fill up to this time but Not the common Lazarus-type people - Luke 16:25-26
So, the story is about a dramatic reversal of positions. Remember the old Mosaic Law being replace by the New Covenant
Since Pentecost the great gap between the Rich Man and Lazarus shows Jesus' followers are the ones who now have God's favor or favored position

I thought that you might answer in the same manner that other JWs have, and I was right. I wasn't sure if you'd answer differently or not.

I've head of people paying ( free gift ) to someone going to university 'if' they have passing grades
So, "IF" we continue to follow Jesus - 1st John 1:7 ( "IF" )

If a person is first forewarned is that being ruthless if they freely choose to disobey _________ - James 1:13-15
A loving parent might say to a child you can freely have dessert 'if' you first eat dinner. Who would say that is ruthless ______

If someone offers me something as a gift with conditions attached, then it isn't a gift, in my opinion. It isn't a gift if this person imposes a set of restrictions on how I can use whatever they gave me, and they will either arbitrarily or ruthlessly take it away if they're upset with me because I didn't follow their rules.
 

Andrew Stephen

Stephen Andrew
Premium Member
Peace to all

Thanks for reading, to all.

To me, the fiat power of the flesh goes through three Power Exchanges, created Mortal and corrupt to becoming transformed immortal and incorruptible and then to become gloriously transfigured becoming into the Trinity of the Godhead.

The logic to me is The Trinity of the Body of all mankind becomes United as one in being with the Trinity of The Kingdom of the Divine Being through the Power of The "Divine" some say Holy Spirit together with The Father and The Son as Transfigured gloriously.

To me, the Logic is in The Real Information that existed before creation as the Divine Spirit will of God. The will, the power, the information that will never fail is "What would Jesus do in all cases of fulfilled Faith and morality." We become able to transfigure as re-imaged, as sanctified and confirmed and re-sanctified through all of teh wondrous mysteries of The Faith. We know this is the being of the "Divine Spirit." Jesus, the Person in the Being that existed before creation was ever created and through the Arc of the New Covenant through the Immaculate Conception, Mary and the Virgin Birth of the Christ, conceived by the Holy Spirit Person, the Body of God in all mankind, Jesus delivered in the Arc of the New Covenant the Being of the Will of the Father. The Arc of teh New Covenant is the fulfilled New Living Sacrifice, the Manna from Heaven and the New Covenant law, fulfilled eternal Love in The New Eve, His Passion. The Divine "Holy" Spirit Person is the Being of the Divine some say "Holy" Spirit Power shared as on in being to manifest by the power Divine Spirit through the flesh to the soul of the Body fulfilled creation without failure. To me, Jesus gave up the "Ghost," the Divine Will of God when He said, "It is finished" and we become as united with all mankind One in Being together with the Father and the Son, Glorified and Transfigured into the image of the Creator, God The Father.

To me this is Logic that I see and thanks in advance for any input to correct any unseen errors by me with respect to the Will of the Father.

To me some where there exists in the logic of the spirit in the soul of the being with Body. From Adam and Eve’s corrupt soul and flesh, we become incorruptible through the New Baptized Body as adopted Brothers and Sisters of Christ at the Cross, “Ecce Mater tua.” Behold your Mother. We become into the Body of Christ, immortal and incorruptible. The “sanctification” of the Soul through Baptism allows the Living Waters of Baptism to Cover, wash the spirit in the soul of the being in the Body then through Communion and Penance by the Power of the Holy Spirit will of God to become glorified and transfigured becoming the image of the Father by maintaining friendship through all of the works through the Body of Christ. All life comes in him and through Him, Jesus, to the Creator, God, The Father.

To me, the Logic of the Holy Spirit is to enter into the soul of the being in the Body, regenerated in the flesh of the being of the soul with the Holy Spirit Being now present in the Body of the incorruptible and immortal Being. As an immortal and incorruptible in the spirit through the flesh to soul through the Baptism of John, now with the Holy Spirit in the soul of the confirmed and re-generated re-sanctified spirit through repentance, the being is allowed the transfiguration by the Divine “Holy” Spirit to manifest the flesh by the soul in the Body of The Christ into the image of the Father, God.

The Trinity of God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit manifested by the Will of God.

The Body is to become gloriously transfigured into the Image of the Father by becoming transformed immortal and incorruptible brothers and sisters of Christ from the Cross in the flesh through The Body of Mary in Jesus by becoming created through the flesh of Adam and Eve, all through the Power of the Holy Spirit will of God.

Throughout the Bible Transfiguration is referenced and available in the Word through the Books of the Bible. I sometimes have to search and eventually I can find the verses to support this logic, and am open to correction if anything is said not correct with respect to the Holy Spirit will of God, as the Paraclete to all mankind. Please advise me if there are any questions in the Logic of the Holy Spirit I am seeing.

Thanks in advance.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Stephen Andrew, I find the Transfiguration was a VISION - Matthew 17:9 - and Not a real happening.
Jesus' coming Glory Time comes at his time of separation as found at Matthew 25:31-34,37

Many also seem to dismiss Jesus' promise at Matthew 5:5 from Psalms 37:9-11; 22:26 that meek people will inherit the Earth
So, besides Heaven for some - Rev. 20:6; 5:9-10, there is the earthly hope or offer of 'everlasting life on Earth' as originally offered to Adam before his downfall for the majority of mankind
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
How long will you serve the law, not only you, I'm talking about every person?
The law - the word is a teacher.
Read what it says..
23 But before the time for faith came, the Law kept us all locked up as prisoners until this coming faith should be revealed.
24 And so the Law was in charge of us until Christ came, in order that we might then be put right with God through faith.
25 Now that the time for faith is here, the Law is no longer in charge of us.
26 It is through faith that all of you are God's children in union with Christ Jesus.
27 You were baptized into union with Christ, and now you are clothed, so to speak, with the life of Christ himself.
And you yourself told about that transformation.
As it says at the end of the law-letter.
5 Then the one who sits on the throne said, “And now I make all things new!” He also said to me, “Write this, because these words are true and can be trusted.”
6 And he said, “It is done! I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end. To anyone who is thirsty I will give the right to drink from the spring of the water of life without paying for it.
7 Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children.
8 But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practice magic, those who worship idols, and all liars—the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
Work on your transformation until you break the law, fear not!
Because when Jesus comes, new things will be created, including a new law.
I find Jesus already gave us a New Law as found at John 13:34-35
Jesus' New Commandment to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as he has
In other words, we are Now to love neighbor MORE than self, more than the old Golden Rule of Leviticus 19:18

Yes, when Jesus comes new things will be created and we will be 'healed' - Revelation 22:2
Healed from sickness - Isaiah 33:24 - Healthy healing as described at Isaiah 35:5-6
Even enemy death will be No more on Earth - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
 

alf

Member
I find Jesus already gave us a New Law as found at John 13:34-35
Jesus' New Commandment to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as he has
In other words, we are Now to love neighbor MORE than self, more than the old Golden Rule of Leviticus 19:18

Yes, when Jesus comes new things will be created and we will be 'healed' - Revelation 22:2
Healed from sickness - Isaiah 33:24 - Healthy healing as described at Isaiah 35:5-6
Even enemy death will be No more on Earth - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
I will use a metaphor in the explanation.

360_F_593285483_gqbPnykXCofQSi8zIirow2VG5pykTEpQ.jpg
download.jpg


In both pictures there are two lions, one in a cage and the other is free.
The lion in the cage was born in captivity. For him, the cage is the whole world and he knows no other world.

That's how it is with people, the cage is all they found in this world. This includes the name, the nation, the culture, the dogma with laws, the time-calendar.

That cage has to be overcome by a person, and it happens by tasting death.
Because the lion in the cage has to "die" so that the other, the free one, can be born!

Now try to put yourself in the role of the free lion, how will you explain what the cage is?

Isn't that like explaining to a blind man what darkness looks like, when he hasn't seen light?

Overcome the bars of the mind, to be shaped the son of God.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I will use a metaphor in the explanation.
In both pictures there are two lions, one in a cage and the other is free.
The lion in the cage was born in captivity. For him, the cage is the whole world and he knows no other world.
That's how it is with people, the cage is all they found in this world. This includes the name, the nation, the culture, the dogma with laws, the time-calendar.
That cage has to be overcome by a person, and it happens by tasting death.
Because the lion in the cage has to "die" so that the other, the free one, can be born!
Now try to put yourself in the role of the free lion, how will you explain what the cage is?
Isn't that like explaining to a blind man what darkness looks like, when he hasn't seen light?
Overcome the bars of the mind, to be shaped the son of God.
The 'lion in the cage born in captivity' reminds me that cage is the legacy fallen father Adam has put us in
No matter what part of the whole world we are in that 'cage' surrounds us
Sinner Satan ( that roaring lion - 1st Peter 5:8) lied to Eve that Eve would Not die - Gen. 3:4
What 'cage' did Eve and Adam overcome _________
To me Jesus can be the free lion so that we can Not only be born but can have a resurrection back to live life again - Acts 24:15
True, we have Not yet seen the * resurrection's light* but 'bars of the mind' can be shaped by the Son of God
 

alf

Member
The 'lion in the cage born in captivity' reminds me that cage is the legacy fallen father Adam has put us in
No matter what part of the whole world we are in that 'cage' surrounds us
Sinner Satan ( that roaring lion - 1st Peter 5:8) lied to Eve that Eve would Not die - Gen. 3:4
What 'cage' did Eve and Adam overcome _________
To me Jesus can be the free lion so that we can Not only be born but can have a resurrection back to live life again - Acts 24:15
True, we have Not yet seen the * resurrection's light* but 'bars of the mind' can be shaped by the Son of God
Jesus' appearance is to show a way, a direction to follow.
Unfortunately, people stay in their cage waiting for someone to release them and even worse they call it belief.

I must note that the word "belief" people associate with an emotion, most often love, the more they develop love for a certain named spiritual figure described in their holy books, the greater the belief.

It is not faith-belief.

True faith appears after a man leaves the cage.

Galatians 2

19 So far as the Law is concerned, however, I am dead—killed by the Law itself—in order that I might live for God. I have been put to death with Christ on his cross,
20 so that it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. This life that I live now, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave his life for me.
21 I refuse to reject the grace of God. But if a person is put right with God through the Law, it means that Christ died for nothing!

The true meaning of the word "belief" occurs when a person "dies", and it is not a belief when Jesus is outside of the person.
You believe in the letters, but you don't fulfill them!!
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Jesus' appearance is to show a way, a direction to follow.
Unfortunately, people stay in their cage waiting for someone to release them and even worse they call it belief.
I must note that the word "belief" people associate with an emotion, most often love, the more they develop love for a certain named spiritual figure described in their holy books, the greater the belief.
It is not faith-belief.
True faith appears after a man leaves the cage. Galatians 2
19 So far as the Law is concerned, however, I am dead—killed by the Law itself—in order that I might live for God. I have been put to death with Christ on his cross,
20 so that it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. This life that I live now, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave his life for me.
21 I refuse to reject the grace of God. But if a person is put right with God through the Law, it means that Christ died for nothing!
The true meaning of the word "belief" occurs when a person "dies", and it is not a belief when Jesus is outside of the person.
You believe in the letters, but you don't fulfill them!!
Some who are Not even waiting for someone and their belief is more like credulity ( blind faith )
Whereas, Jesus' belief is based on his logical reasoning on the OT in which to preach and teach - Luke 4:43
Yes, love and greater ' belief/faith/confidence ' can go hand in hand
A person can 'die', so to speak, to former beliefs and put on the new personality - Galatians 5:22-23 - stripping off the old - vss 19-22
 
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