Ethical to breed animals for its only purpose to be eaten?

[Kirran]

When I was a child I had some Torddu Badgerfaces. The ram was a real pain - aggressive to the other rams, who were twice the size of him and just ignored him. He eventually jumped a fence and was never to be seen.

But the ewes were lovely. We kept a Torddu-Suffolk cross ram for a few years. Nice little beast.

Do you speak Welsh, ratikala?

 

[illykitty]

Well, in my opinion, no it isn't. I think one great thing about us humans is that we can chose what we value, we have ethics and can feel compassion towards other beings. I feel it is an extension of compassion to not eat animals. Disclaimer: I'm not saying omnivores lack compassion, it may manifest in another way, we need to remember to show compassion towards other human beings too. After all, I wasn't a vegetarian all of my life, I had to discover for myself how animals are treated, how even chickens have complex social lives and that it's unnecessary for me to eat meat. It took a big shift, as I come from a family that eats a lot of meat (Hungarians).

Also, sorry but I hate the argument about plants. If you truly cared about plants, you would be vegetarian. Eating meat consumes more plants than a vegetarian diet. It's also a disaster for the environment. Not sure we'll be able to continue eating this much meat, with the population increasing so much... Maybe people in the future will have to eat much less of it... Or rely on lab grown meat, which at least would vastly reduce unethical treatment of animals and lessen the burden on our environment.

 

[Revoltingest]

look here you two @Revoltingest @Smart_Guy , .....this is no laughing matter , ....

OK so you want to eat sheep , ....I sentance you to a penance , ...

Eat 108 chocolate sheep before breakfast , ...bu which time I hope you feel so sick of sheep that you never want to eat one again ​

Those are milk chocolate!
Oh, the horror of it!

What happened to Lisa Simpson when she tried to eat lamb chops....

 

[Smart_Guy]

look here you two @Revoltingest @Smart_Guy , .....this is no laughing matter , ....

OK so you want to eat sheep , ....I sentance you to a penance , ...

Eat 108 chocolate sheep before breakfast , ...bu which time I hope you feel so sick of sheep that you never want to eat one again ​

We still have to slaughter those choco-sheeps?

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram illy ji

Well, in my opinion, no it isn't. I think one great thing about us humans is that we can chose what we value, we have ethics and can feel compassion towards other beings. I feel it is an extension of compassion to not eat animals. Disclaimer: I'm not saying omnivores lack compassion, it may manifest in another way, we need to remember to show compassion towards other human beings too. After all, I wasn't a vegetarian all of my life, I had to discover for myself how animals are treated, how even chickens have complex social lives and that it's unnecessary for me to eat meat. It took a big shift, as I come from a family that eats a lot of meat (Hungarians).

nice post , ... ....especialy from the perspective of us born into meat eating families , ...vegetarianism is a decision that I think we have to in our own time and on our own terms , ....

Also, sorry but I hate the argument about plants. If you truly cared about plants, you would be vegetarian. Eating meat consumes more plants than a vegetarian diet. It's also a disaster for the environment. Not sure we'll be able to continue eating this much meat, with the population increasing so much... Maybe people in the future will have to eat much less of it... Or rely on lab grown meat, which at least would vastly reduce unethical treatment of animals and lessen the burden on our environment.

must admit that the idea of lab cultured food is realy scarry , ....do we realy know that its safe ???

I do think that even meat eaters would be better off eating less , from the point of veiw of health if not on compassionate grounds , .....and yes plants need to be looked after too we are destroying this planet wiping out natural species and by geneticaly engineering monster foods , ....and to be honest we dont realy understand the repurcussions , ...especialy where it comes to desease resistance , .....we need to respect nature and preserve her delicate ballance ,
which may mean making a few small personal sacrifices .

 

[Wirey]

There's a reason deer are delicious and soybeans aren't. Guess.

 

[Kirran]

must admit that the idea of lab cultured food is realy scarry , ....do we realy know that its safe ???

I do think that even meat eaters would be better off eating less , from the point of veiw of health if not on compassionate grounds , .....and yes plants need to be looked after too we are destroying this planet wiping out natural species and by geneticaly engineering monster foods , ....and to be honest we dont realy understand the repurcussions , ...especialy where it comes to desease resistance , .....we need to respect nature and preserve her delicate ballance ,
which may mean making a few small personal sacrifices .

While I agree with most of your points here, I've got to say I am in favour of both lab-cultured meat (in vitro meat) and also GM crops. I am very, very strongly in support of the use of GM crops. I think that protesting against GM crops, or supporting legislation against research in this area, causes a lot of suffering.

If it hadn't been for the Greenpeace (and other groups) activities against the growing of Golden Rice on a commercial scale, there'd be millions less children dying and suffering due to nutrient deficiencies today.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Kirran ji

When I was a child I had some Torddu Badgerfaces. The ram was a real pain - aggressive to the other rams, who were twice the size of him and just ignored him. He eventually jumped a fence and was never to be seen.

But the ewes were lovely. We kept a Torddu-Suffolk cross ram for a few years. Nice little beast.

I love them they look so at home here there was a field full down the road , the lambs are exceptionaly naughty and are great escapees , .....we have got pretty expert at rounding them up on the long pasture and getting them back in their fields , .....further down on the bigger farms there are lots of suffolk crosses they are massive by comparrison , ...

Do you speak Welsh, ratikala?

saddly no , ....but I can spin and grow daffodils , .....

however I do know a few wooly related welsh words
I am thinking of collecting as much welsh wool related knowledge as poss for a project later this year , ...

do you speak Cymraeg ?

 

[Revoltingest]

There's a reason deer are delicious and soybeans aren't. Guess.

Soybeans can be fantastic!
Try edamame next time you head out for sushi.

 

[Kirran]

namaskaram Kirran ji

I love them they look so at home here there was a field full down the road , the lambs are exceptionaly naughty and are great escapees , .....we have got pretty expert at rounding them up on the long pasture and getting them back in their fields , .....further down on the bigger farms there are lots of suffolk crosses they are massive by comparrison , ...

Suffolks are pretty big. The sheep on the farm my parents own are a real mixture. Welsh-Cheviot-Wiltshire, with some Blue Leicester, Suffolk, Texel etc.

saddly no , ....but I can spin and grow daffodils , .....

however I do know a few wooly related welsh words
I am thinking of collecting as much welsh wool related knowledge as poss for a project later this year , ...

do you speak Cymraeg ?

Ah, what project?

I do. It's a little rusty, but I'm more or less fluent, I think.

 

[ratikala]

While I agree with most of your points here, I've got to say I am in favour of both lab-cultured meat (in vitro meat) and also GM crops. I am very, very strongly in support of the use of GM crops. I think that protesting against GM crops, or supporting legislation against research in this area, causes a lot of suffering.
If it hadn't been for the Greenpeace (and other groups) activities against the growing of Golden Rice on a commercial scale, there'd be millions less children dying and suffering due to nutrient deficiencies today

I think the short term benifits sound very attractive , ...but I fear are the long term implications , I have a freind who for his long life has kept bees he thinks that building certain resistances into plants must have implications particularly for polenators like bees , ...he very seriously thinks that there have been experimants going on here and worries that this could be affecting bee health , without bees we are stuffed ! ....and then there are other hidden problems , ..de natured seeds , ..if seeds become sterile farmers are dependant on seed and chemical companies who can hold and controll all food production world wide , ...and the forcasts that were initialy made about the resiliance of some GM crops has turned out to be false , they require extensive firtilisation , ....again is controll by the big agri chemical industries also being woven into the scenario ?

allthough at times there are some very strong benifits to be conscidered , ..I am afraid I am anti , because where big business is concerned manipulation all too often happens .

 

[ratikala]

Suffolks are pretty big. The sheep on the farm my parents own are a real mixture. Welsh-Cheviot-Wiltshire, with some Blue Leicester, Suffolk, Texel etc.

Blue face leicester ?
they are beautifull to spin , ....

Ah, what project?

I do. It's a little rusty, but I'm more or less fluent, I think.

all to do with the welsh wool industry, ....which would bring in all aspects of wool related subjects

 

[Kirran]

I think the short term benifits sound very attractive , ...but I fear are the long term implications , I have a freind who for his long life has kept bees he thinks that building certain resistances into plants must have implications particularly for polenators like bees , ...he very seriously thinks that there have been experimants going on here and worries that this could be affecting bee health , without bees we are stuffed ! ....and then there are other hidden problems , ..de natured seeds , ..if seeds become sterile farmers are dependant on seed and chemical companies who can hold and controll all food production world wide , ...and the forcasts that were initialy made about the resiliance of some GM crops has turned out to be false , they require extensive firtilisation , ....again is controll by the big agri chemical industries also being woven into the scenario ?

allthough at times there are some very strong benifits to be conscidered , ..I am afraid I am anti , because where big business is concerned manipulation all too often happens .

Having studied many of these issues, I hope I can provide some solid answers.

Genetically modifying a plant for resistance to certain herbicides, to certain diseases, etc, is really a very small change. In fact, the difference between a GM plant and its parent plant is far far less than that between different strains of the same crop. So if I genetically modify some strain of maize, the resulting GM strain will be more similar to that strain of maize I started with than to some other strain of maize.

They've done some studies on biodiversity and how it's impacted by GM crops, right here in the UK. Conclusions - overall, it doesn't have any negative impact. Possibly a positive impact, even, with some crops, as it means there's more grain for birds and more pollen for bees etc.

There are various restrictions on growing from your own seed when there's patents on them etc by GM companies. I think a lot of work needs to be done on the legislation to make it fairer to farmers.

Overall, GM crops use less additives etc than non-GM crops, apparently. Herbicides and pesticides, especially.

Blue face leicester ?
they are beautifull to spin , ....

That's the one. Blue Face Leicester.

all to do with the welsh wool industry, ....which would bring in all aspects of wool related subjects

That sounds great. Hope you enjoy it.

 

[Wirey]

Soybeans can be fantastic!
Try edamame next time you head out for sushi.

If God wanted me to eat raw fish, He wouldn't have invented the deep fryer.

Ever notice people who worked on commercial fishing boats won't eat sushi because of worms. Hmmmm.

 

[Kirran]

If God wanted me to eat raw fish, He wouldn't have invented the deep fryer.

Ever notice people who worked on commercial fishing boats won't eat sushi because of worms. Hmmmm.

If God wanted me to eat rice, he wouldn't have made it possible for me to eat things other than rice.

 

[Revoltingest]

If God wanted me to eat raw fish, He wouldn't have invented the deep fryer.
Ever notice people who worked on commercial fishing boats won't eat sushi because of worms. Hmmmm.

"Sushi" actually refers to the vinegared rice rather than raw fish.
I don't do raw fish either, & much sushi does have it cooked, eg, eel, shrimp.

 

[illykitty]

namaskaram illy ji

nice post , ... ....especialy from the perspective of us born into meat eating families , ...vegetarianism is a decision that I think we have to in our own time and on our own terms , ....

must admit that the idea of lab cultured food is realy scarry , ....do we realy know that its safe ???

I do think that even meat eaters would be better off eating less , from the point of veiw of health if not on compassionate grounds , .....and yes plants need to be looked after too we are destroying this planet wiping out natural species and by geneticaly engineering monster foods , ....and to be honest we dont realy understand the repurcussions , ...especialy where it comes to desease resistance , .....we need to respect nature and preserve her delicate ballance ,
which may mean making a few small personal sacrifices .

Thank you, and yes it's hard when most people in the family don't get it, but I live far away from them, have to deal with it once a year at most.

Well, to be honest, I have no idea about long term effects... But it's supposed to be cultured from animal cells and grown. I think of it as growing a burger rather than growing an animal to kill and make into mince. Doesn't sound too bad (though I still won't have it because I'm vegetarian for health reasons too). At least it's better than killing billions of animals every year.

But I understand your worries about such things... I mean I'm not against GMOs, I don't know enough scientific data to take a stance like that, but I truly dislike Monsanto and other companies like them, who think that GMOs are great because it means the plants are more resistant to pesticides, so they want to douse our food in even more of them! It's disgusting! Especially when there's alternatives, like growing organic food with minimal or no such chemicals, using compost or vertical farms, which use much less energy and water than conventional farming.

But GMOs used in a good way *could* save some lives. But I do wonder too what impact it could have, long term.

 

[Kirran]

Thank you, and yes it's hard when most people in the family don't get it, but I live far away from them, have to deal with it once a year at most.

Well, to be honest, I have no idea about long term effects... But it's supposed to be cultured from animal cells and grown. I think of it as growing a burger rather than growing an animal to kill and make into mince. Doesn't sound too bad (though I still won't have it because I'm vegetarian for health reasons too). At least it's better than killing billions of animals every year.

But I understand your worries about such things... I mean I'm not against GMOs, I don't know enough scientific data to take a stance like that, but I truly dislike Monsanto and other companies like them, who think that GMOs are great because it means the plants are more resistant to pesticides, so they want to douse our food in even more of them! It's disgusting! Especially when there's alternatives, like growing organic food with minimal or no such chemicals, using compost or vertical farms, which use much less energy and water than conventional farming.

But GMOs used in a good way *could* save some lives. But I do wonder too what impact it could have, long term.

While I very much agree with you that vertical farming and other alternative practices like permaculture should be encouraged to help in food production, I'd like to correct the misconception that GM crops use more chemicals.

As somebody who has studied this area, it's actually been shown in studies that GM crops use less herbicides than regular crops, and plants don't get engineered with pesticide resistance, they get engineered with pest resistance. Thereby dramatically reducing pesticide use.

I personally believe that anti-GM activism, such as the destruction of a field trial in the Philippines and the media blockade against research in this area, is seriously reducing our ability to combat world hunger and malnutrition.

EDIT: Also, having grown up on an organic farm, there's mad levels of bureaucracy involved - you're basically paying in cash (directly and indirectly) and time to have the organic badge on your products.

 

[illykitty]

While I very much agree with you that vertical farming and other alternative practices like permaculture should be encouraged to help in food production, I'd like to correct the misconception that GM crops use more chemicals.

As somebody who has studied this area, it's actually been shown in studies that GM crops use less herbicides than regular crops, and plants don't get engineered with pesticide resistance, they get engineered with pest resistance. Thereby dramatically reducing pesticide use.

I personally believe that anti-GM activism, such as the destruction of a field trial in the Philippines and the media blockade against research in this area, is seriously reducing our ability to combat world hunger and malnutrition.

EDIT: Also, having grown up on an organic farm, there's mad levels of bureaucracy involved - you're basically paying in cash (directly and indirectly) and time to have the organic badge on your products.

I'm not disagreeing that GMO's can be good, but have you ever had a look at Monsanto? The image beside "evil corporation" in a encyclopaedia would be theirs.

I'm not saying ALL GMO's use more pesticides, I talked about the particular bad cases involving bad corporations. Re-read my post.

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram Kirran ji

While I very much agree with you that vertical farming and other alternative practices like permaculture should be encouraged to help in food production, I'd like to correct the misconception that GM crops use more chemicals.

As somebody who has studied this area, it's actually been shown in studies that GM crops use less herbicides than regular crops, and plants don't get engineered with pesticide resistance, they get engineered with pest resistance. Thereby dramatically reducing pesticide use.

I realy dont want to offend you , and I have not yet asked what you are currently studying , ....may turn out to be agriculture , ...

please remember there is no intent to offend , and I am giving you my veiw only , ....but I am not the only one who thinks like this , ....there are millions of us , ....

We are told that GM is safe by whom , the same people who stand to make inordinate ammounts of monney from it , ...we are fed this lie that this technology will improve the lives of the poorer nations , the third world countries , ...

if so , ...then Why have they developed plants with sterile seed , ....this is not enabling food security , ...?
and Why are there moves afoot to illigalise the saving of seed ???

Do you know that for over two years this argumant has been going on the EU wants to ban the use of any seed not registered with the presiding Government , ...???
and if the large Agri Businesses had their way and this law actualy gets pased I will be a criminal , ....
Heritige vegetable seed varieties will be illegal unless regestered with the government , and I most certainly would be commiting a criminal act saving and cultivating wild flowers , dye plants and medicinal herbs (which have been used for centuries ), unless I have them tested and registered , ...of course any small grower canot afford this kind of testing , if passed this law would put a lot of small growers out of business or force then to grow only the varieties sold by the industrial producers , ....

this is not about feeding the world that unfortunatly is just their big spin , ....it is about money and control.

I personally believe that anti-GM activism, such as the destruction of a field trial in the Philippines and the media blockade against research in this area, is seriously reducing our ability to combat world hunger and malnutrition.

I love you for being so sweet and so trusting , ...but there is more to all this than meets the eye , ...

EDIT: Also, having grown up on an organic farm, there's mad levels of bureaucracy involved - you're basically paying in cash (directly and indirectly) and time to have the organic badge on your products.

yes , and why is this ? ...to make it difficult for the small producers , ....and eventualy squeeze them out or standardise them , ....if the EU has its way your father will have to buy seed from the big suppliers he wont have the oppertunity to choose a variety which suits his soil or his customers he will get the standard seed and the standard soil conditioners (chemicals) to go with it , ...

and if America gets its way and forces us into accepting trade agreements , they can come here and grow what they like and produce food to their (lower) standards and if we try to stop them they will take us to court for restrictive practices , ...
this is all about money , ...why on earth would America need to come here to grow food if it wasnt for financial reasons?
Do you know about the company whos name I probably cant mention , ..., ...(American owned) who opperate here , one of their recent ploys is the setting up of abslolutely massive industrial chicken units , ...and for what market , ...fast food and junk food markets ? and export ! ...yet for our own use we import loads of chickens from Asia ??? ...why ? because these chickens are fed disgusting growth promoters to fatten them up as quikly as possible , ..and we dont fancy them .

this is a product of and I quote , ....''Genetic breeding, growth hormones and high growth feed leads to the modern broiler hen growing abnormally fast and reaching slaughter age in just 6-7 weeks ...''Chicken: Cruelty and abuse of poultry and egg laying chicken in factory farms | ourfoodprint.com

if they can do this to chickens to make money they will do it to vegetables too , ...this world is sick it is driven by desire for profit and the best way to make profit is to knock out or controll the competition ,...please please do not be taken in read both sides of the story .

the nameless company claim this , ...'' ***** provides food, agriculture, financial and industrial products and services to the world. Together with farmers, customers, governments and communities, we help people thrive by applying our insights and 150 years of experience. We have 152,000 employees in 67 countries who are committed to feeding the world in a responsible way, reducing environmental impact and improving the communities where we live and work''

but they do this ...

one of their slogans is ''sustainability is the new Norm''

Oh look there is some one'' composting '' ? the ones that didnt make it ???


weve got to think this one out again , and we have to stop beliving the spin !!!

P.S. congratulations to your fammily for having Principles and sticking to them how ever hard it may be .

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