Ethical to breed animals for its only purpose to be eaten?

[No*s]

It is very hypocritical to love animals and eat them. There is no reason to eat animals. Eating animal flesh is no different than eating human flesh, we do not need it. you get omegas from fish, or you can simply get them from flax seed oil. Eating meat is bad for your body, just like consuming dairy products. factory farms and meat consumption are bad for the environment as well. The argument that we have k-9 teeth is ridiculous. i look at mine in the mirror and wonder if i can chase down an animal, kill it with my teeth or claws and tear through its skin to eat its flesh with my claws and teeth. of course not. our k-9s are not developed for that and we lack strong claws. We can get plenty of protein from vegetables, nuts, rice, and beans and most towns/cities, in amerikkka anyway, have grocery stores all over. I understand killing and eating flesh out of necessity for survival, but in today's society it is rarely if ever necessary. Many of the prophets were vegetarians as well, some lived in a desert climate and it was difficult to survive without meat so they had to eat flesh. Jesus was a vegetarian, Adam and Eve were vegetarians, as it was in the beginning, so it shall be in the end. For those who live in the "land of freedom"....
Go vegan if you really pledge allegiance, because if this is the land of freedom, then your kitchen is treason--Foek
There is no reason to slaughter animals, keeping them as slaves.

I would have to say I disagree with you. First, we are omnivores. I don't really need to argue from our past, evolution, or anything. We eat plants, animals, and fungi equally. Tonight, I had a pepperoni and mushroom pizza. That means I had all three kingdoms represented. In most cultures we find the consumption of meat, and where it isn't consumed, there is normally societal pressure not to make it happen.

The next thing I would point out is that we are naturally hunters. We have an instinct to kill and consume other organisms. We represent this not just in hunting, but also in our wars and entertainment. I've played my fair share of shooters. The thrill is in hunting down my opponent and catching him (usually with a flack canon or minigun). Like our eating habits, this very strong instinct (particularly strong in males) is a testimony to the fact that we have a predator's instinct.

The last thing I'll point to is that we can, and do, love animals that we raise for food. I know it can be done, because I've done it, and I don't feel it is hypocritical. I feel it is natural. I'm no more going to abrogate that completely natural order, than I am my arbitrary rules that my pets can't mess on the floor and will be trained to go outside. Enviromental arguments are one thing, and they bear weight, but I do not feel my consumption of animals that I may love is hypocritical.

So, in essence, I eat meat because it is natural as well as for pleasure. I am a predator, an organism that devours other organisms which aren't human, and I don't feel an ethical pressure to reel it in.

 

[Master Vigil]

Life comes from death. We stay alive from eating dead life. Whether it be animal, or vegetable. It is the nature of things. Every living thing does it. We are no different.

 

[Saw11_2000]

Instead of regurgitating everything i already said check this out, thread #29

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10079&page=3

Chimpazees again are omnivores and here is a description of their teeth.

The upper jaw has sixteen teeth of which two are canine, four are incisor and the back are molars. The bottom jaw also has sixteen teeth consisting of two canine, four incisor and the back molars.

Sounds just like us, and I doubt the monkeys are just eating animals just for the sake of killing them and because it feels good to eat meat. They're just supposed to eat meat, like us.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Master Vigil's wise words remind me of something that spoke truly to me.

Those of us from shamanistic backgrounds speak with plants as well as animals (and the occasional person). (We also speak with the Stone people, but they seem rather immune from the threat of being eaten.)

For me, it is wrong to say I honor the life of a plant any more or less than that of any other creature. I would be saying 'animals are better than plants' if I chose to eat only plants, and I could not say that, having learned as much wisdom from the flora as the fauna.

When I eat any meal, whatever the make-up, I say a prayer not only to my concept of divinity, but also to the meal. I honor that which died so that I might live. That doesn't mean I haven't been trying to wean myself off meat (the fox spirit in me is screaming at this), but as I respect other's path, I will ask that they respect mine.

 

[No*s]

Life comes from death. We stay alive from eating dead life. Whether it be animal, or vegetable. It is the nature of things. Every living thing does it. We are no different.

These are very generous words in the context, especially given your stance on hunting when we don't need to . Thank you.

 

[Master Vigil]

Thank you No's. I understand the difference between killing for necessity and killing for pleasure. I abhor the way animals are treated, and wish things would change. But that still doesn't change the fact that humans are omnivores. And like everything else that needs to eat to survive, we survive off of dead life. Thats just the way it is.

 

[Master Vigil]

And just like feathers said, why put the life of an animal above that of a plant? To me, they both have a spirit. And both should be respected.

 

[No*s]

Welcome .

I've always wondered why place one over another if the value is simply because it's alive, but I normally have thought of the line being drawn on suffering, which I doubt plants feel when they're harvested.

I'm an odd duck in this category also. I can, for instance, raise a lamb, love it, and care for it tenderly, never mistreat it, and actually get angry when people do...but when it reaches a certain point kill it. I don't live on a farm anymore, but that's the order of what I'm used to. The more I interact with people, the more odd I see I am there.

 

[Quoth The Raven]

It is very hypocritical to love animals and eat them. There is no reason to eat animals. Eating animal flesh is no different than eating human flesh, we do not need it. you get omegas from fish, or you can simply get them from flax seed oil. Eating meat is bad for your body, just like consuming dairy products. factory farms and meat consumption are bad for the environment as well. The argument that we have k-9 teeth is ridiculous. i look at mine in the mirror and wonder if i can chase down an animal, kill it with my teeth or claws and tear through its skin to eat its flesh with my claws and teeth. of course not. our k-9s are not developed for that and we lack strong claws. We can get plenty of protein from vegetables, nuts, rice, and beans and most towns/cities, in amerikkka anyway, have grocery stores all over. I understand killing and eating flesh out of necessity for survival, but in today's society it is rarely if ever necessary. Many of the prophets were vegetarians as well, some lived in a desert climate and it was difficult to survive without meat so they had to eat flesh. Jesus was a vegetarian, Adam and Eve were vegetarians, as it was in the beginning, so it shall be in the end. For those who live in the "land of freedom"....
Go vegan if you really pledge allegiance, because if this is the land of freedom, then your kitchen is treason--Foek
There is no reason to slaughter animals, keeping them as slaves.

Once again, for the benefit of the people who can't work it out for themselves, we don't need to be able to bring down an animal with our teeth and claws, because we can make tools.
If what you can't do without the aid of a tool troubles you so highly, may I suggest you never travel by motorized vehicle. Don't eat with cuttlery or crockery either, while you're at it, and don't use any form of heating or cooling, or eat any food that isn't raw.
Perhaps you'll be telling us next that the monkeys using a stick to get the termites out shouldn't eat them, because they're using a tool, and that's obviously wrong.
As for it being hypocritical to love animals and also eat them, well, I tend to view animals destined for food as food (which doesn't mean I lack the ability to be nice to the food animals...we used to raise rabbits, and every one of them was hand tame. Aside from anything else it makes killing them a lot less traumatic if they're used to human contact), and pets as pets. I'm sorry you lack the ability to differentiate. Perhaps if you had a bit of experience with having to raise animals for your own consumption, you would have that capability.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

I'm an odd duck in this category also. I can, for instance, raise a lamb, love it, and care for it tenderly, never mistreat it, and actually get angry when people do...but when it reaches a certain point kill it. I don't live on a farm anymore, but that's the order of what I'm used to. The more I interact with people, the more odd I see I am there.

I don't think that's odd at all. One of my favorite scenes in "Cold Mountain" was the elderly woman who was cooing to a goat that she had obviously treasured, and then, ever so tenderly and calmly, parted it from this life. The goat was never in fear, and it was obvious that it had had a wonderful existence. This was simply the progression of this.

So I think maybe the only issue I have is with people who mistreat the animals, just as much as I take issue with people not caring for the land or the air. That's probably getting back to the original subject about the ethics of animal breeding. I think it's ethical if the animal is not mistreated, but not so, otherwise.

 

[No*s]

I don't think that's odd at all. One of my favorite scenes in "Cold Mountain" was the elderly woman who was cooing to a goat that she had obviously treasured, and then, ever so tenderly and calmly, parted it from this life. The goat was never in fear, and it was obvious that it had had a wonderful existence. This was simply the progression of this.

So I think maybe the only issue I have is with people who mistreat the animals, just as much as I take issue with people not caring for the land or the air. That's probably getting back to the original subject about the ethics of animal breeding. I think it's ethical if the animal is not mistreated, but not so, otherwise.

Yes, it would be getting back . (I feel my position odd, because our society is an urban-dominated society...and most people have lost touch with things like that simply due to changing conditions).

On that, I don't like the way animals are treated in feed lots and things, but I'm also not going to stop eating meat very readily. I've seen how they treat their animals first hand, and I don't like it.

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

has anyone ever heard about wagyu cattle? its also called kobe beef, and its pretty expensive. wagyu cattle are probably the best treated livestock in the world, because they live in a wide open space and are regularly rubbed down with sake for good meat. they also live pretty carefree lives.

 

[john313]

Once again, for the benefit of the people who can't work it out for themselves, we don't need to be able to bring down an animal with our teeth and claws, because we can make tools.
If what you can't do without the aid of a tool troubles you so highly, may I suggest you never travel by motorized vehicle. Don't eat with cuttlery or crockery either, while you're at it, and don't use any form of heating or cooling, or eat any food that isn't raw.
Perhaps you'll be telling us next that the monkeys using a stick to get the termites out shouldn't eat them, because they're using a tool, and that's obviously wrong.
As for it being hypocritical to love animals and also eat them, well, I tend to view animals destined for food as food (which doesn't mean I lack the ability to be nice to the food animals...we used to raise rabbits, and every one of them was hand tame. Aside from anything else it makes killing them a lot less traumatic if they're used to human contact), and pets as pets. I'm sorry you lack the ability to differentiate. Perhaps if you had a bit of experience with having to raise animals for your own consumption, you would have that capability.

I won't even comment on the first part due to the great tangent you took for heating and cooling. i am not sure how you think it is less traumatic for animals that are "destined for food(a very egocentric view)" if they are used to human contact. does that mean if you were going to be killed and eaten, you would rather be killed by your family than strangers? Humans are destined for food for the worms and whatever can get into their coffins. I find it hypocritical to kill something you love unless it is in pain and it is a mercy kill. You do not know what i have raised or killed in the past, so you should not comment on that or my ability to differentiate anything. my actions in the past have shaped my present. if i had never killed animals i would probably not value their life as i do now. Your petty insults do not injure me in any way, try again, try harder.

 

[john313]

http://www.whozoo.org/students/brawil/chimps2.htm


Monkeys (or at least the Chimpanzee) is an omnivore.

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/depts/anthropology/people/faculty/cbramblett/ant301/seven.html
"The greatest differences between humans and chimpanzees occur in the canine teeth. Small peg-like human canines do not project from the tooth row. In contrast, chimpanzee canines are much larger, robust, and project far above their tooth row. Diastemas, gaps in the tooth row of the maxilla allow projecting mandibular canines to pass the opposing canine and incisor during occlusion. The maxillary canine passes the buccal side of its opposing pm3, allowing the lingual surface of the canine to make contact with a blade-like sectorial surface on the premolar. Humans lack the large diastema and the human pm3 is non-sectorial. Human anterior teeth (canines and incisors) are greatly reduced in size and human incisors are positioned close to a transverse plane that passes through the canine teeth. Chimpanzee incisors are positioned well forward of this plane. Consequently the parabolic or elliptical human dental arcade contrasts sharply with the U-shaped arcade of chimpanzees."

 

[john313]

I would have to say I disagree with you. First, we are omnivores. I don't really need to argue from our past, evolution, or anything. We eat plants, animals, and fungi equally. Tonight, I had a pepperoni and mushroom pizza. That means I had all three kingdoms represented. In most cultures we find the consumption of meat, and where it isn't consumed, there is normally societal pressure not to make it happen.

The next thing I would point out is that we are naturally hunters. We have an instinct to kill and consume other organisms. We represent this not just in hunting, but also in our wars and entertainment. I've played my fair share of shooters. The thrill is in hunting down my opponent and catching him (usually with a flack canon or minigun). Like our eating habits, this very strong instinct (particularly strong in males) is a testimony to the fact that we have a predator's instinct.

The last thing I'll point to is that we can, and do, love animals that we raise for food. I know it can be done, because I've done it, and I don't feel it is hypocritical. I feel it is natural. I'm no more going to abrogate that completely natural order, than I am my arbitrary rules that my pets can't mess on the floor and will be trained to go outside. Enviromental arguments are one thing, and they bear weight, but I do not feel my consumption of animals that I may love is hypocritical.

So, in essence, I eat meat because it is natural as well as for pleasure. I am a predator, an organism that devours other organisms which aren't human, and I don't feel an ethical pressure to reel it in.

We do have the ability to eat animals and extract nutrition from meat, but the human body is better equipped to be herbivor. I think that is obvious in the great health benefits we see with a vegetarian/vegan diet.
It is hard to tell if the feeling to kill we have is natural instinct or manmade. with all the violence we see and being brought up to kill animals. i wonder if we would have such strong instincts to kill if we had been raised in a different society(i am guessing most people were raised in animal killing societies). Many people also seem to have a natural instinct to have sex with many partners, i do not think this is natural either. i think this is something brought by society. We will just have to disagree on the hypocritical part, i do not think we should kill and eat something we love. I am glad however that you were kind to the animals you raised, many people are not.
Peace, health, and prosperity to you No*s

 

[No*s]

We do have the ability to eat animals and extract nutrition from meat, but the human body is better equipped to be herbivor. I think that is obvious in the great health benefits we see with a vegetarian/vegan diet.
It is hard to tell if the feeling to kill we have is natural instinct or manmade. with all the violence we see and being brought up to kill animals. i wonder if we would have such strong instincts to kill if we had been raised in a different society(i am guessing most people were raised in animal killing societies). Many people also seem to have a natural instinct to have sex with many partners, i do not think this is natural either. i think this is something brought by society. We will just have to disagree on the hypocritical part, i do not think we should kill and eat something we love. I am glad however that you were kind to the animals you raised, many people are not.
Peace, health, and prosperity to you No*s

Thank you ,

I've seen convincing arguments and data for both a meaty diet and a vegen diet being the more healthy. As a result, I really don't have my mind made up, but the fact that my favorite foods are pizza, macaroni and cheese, and tuna cassarole, should show how much effort I've put into figuring it out .

With reference to the nature/nurture thing, there is always a middle ground in the thing. I think that we have both. We can learn, adapt, and so on traits and behaviors, which would allow traits to be taught. Others are simply inherent. Taking the example of sex as an example, adolescants aren't taught how to have an erection or the correlation of thoughts that comes with it. It's a natural response, and a chemical one at that.

I feel something similar is true of our violence and tendency to hunt, the former from our corruption, and the latter simply because of what we are. There is a degree of learning involved, but it is so with both plants and animals. Without being taught, we don't know what to really eat, besides our mother's milk.

However, we do have instincts to hunt. We can see this even in childrens' games. Playing tag, for instance, endures not just because it is fun, but because it taps into these instincts. Likewise, young boys wrestle, which is a form of domination. We also get angry and attack without it being taught, which happens in any daycare on a pretty regular basis. I think these traits, which appear to be a manifestation of instinct, tend towards an instinct that hunts and/or is violent.

I can understand your sentiment on killing and loving, but I hope you also understand mine . I don't see a conflict there. I do when someone hurts and torments their pet, for instance, and then claims that.

Have a good evening

 

[Quoth The Raven]

I won't even comment on the first part due to the great tangent you took for heating and cooling. i am not sure how you think it is less traumatic for animals that are "destined for food(a very egocentric view)" if they are used to human contact. does that mean if you were going to be killed and eaten, you would rather be killed by your family than strangers? Humans are destined for food for the worms and whatever can get into their coffins. I find it hypocritical to kill something you love unless it is in pain and it is a mercy kill. You do not know what i have raised or killed in the past, so you should not comment on that or my ability to differentiate anything. my actions in the past have shaped my present. if i had never killed animals i would probably not value their life as i do now. Your petty insults do not injure me in any way, try again, try harder.

I'm sorry for my egocentric view, but as we grew our own food, the animals in question would not even have lived were they not destined for the pot. They had the best life they could have had in the meantime, but we always knew what the end was for them. If something is used to human contact then it can be killed with the minimum of trauma to itself...I would have thought that obvious. You pick it up - because they're used to it and it causes no panic - and carry it to where it gets a quick removal of the head. Of course humans are food for worms...actually my plan is to be ash for the roses, but that's just because the idea of coffins give me claustrophobia. That and the fact that really theres no point being pumped full of chemicals and stuffed in a box so you can take up a chunk of ground and take umpteen years to decay, when you can get burnt to something the size of a vase and spread under the plants. The concept of being food for worms doesn't worry me...everything is food for something else eventually. And yes, quite frankly, if I'm going to die to feed someone, I would rather it be my family than strangers.
By the way, I never said I'd killed anything I loved, because there's food and there's pets. I differentiate between food and pets. As in - the breeding rabbits were pets because they stayed, the offspring were food because that was the express purpose of them being bred. That is not to say they deserved to be treated as anything less than a small furry bunny that wasn't adverse to being patted, however just as I would not form an emotional attachment to a bag of pretzels, picking up a rabbit and brushing the knots out of it's hair so it's skin isn't being pulled and making it uncomfortable, or bottle raising a lamb doesn't immediately mean to me that it wont end up as food. Animals should be cared for whatever their destiny...just because they're going to finish on a plate doesn't mean they shouldn't have the best life possible while they are alive.
This is where I think we really disagree on this...you feel that the entire concept of raising animals for food is unethical. I disagree. Raising animals for food is fine if they are well treated and cared for. Treating animals badly is unethical, whatever the end that is planned for them.

 

[Saw11_2000]

Alright so all things that eat meat are bad?

What do you think about sharks that have nibbled on people, bears that have torn us apart, and sabre tooth tigers (at least in the past) have slit our juggulars? Do they just want to kill us cuz it's fun? No it's an instinct, and all they see is dinner, yum!

http://www.katinkahesselink.net/health/vegan.html

Humans once again WERE intended by evolution to be omnivores.

 

[Saw11_2000]

Bump!!! I like this post, let's get some more opinions.

 

[john313]

Alright so all things that eat meat are bad?

What do you think about sharks that have nibbled on people, bears that have torn us apart, and sabre tooth tigers (at least in the past) have slit our juggulars? Do they just want to kill us cuz it's fun? No it's an instinct, and all they see is dinner, yum!

http://www.katinkahesselink.net/health/vegan.html

Humans once again WERE intended by evolution to be omnivores.

Not all things that eat meat are bad, i'm not sure where that came from, but some animals are carnivores and omnivores, no one contested that. As stated above, humans do have the ability to process meat and remove nutrition from it, but a vegetarian/vegan diet is much better for the environment and healthier for the human. that link has some bad information from the 1800s for what a vegetarian diet should consist of "Note: This article was written in the 19th century. It is not representative of current medical knowledge."