Ethical to breed animals for its only purpose to be eaten?

[Melody]

I almost feel embarassed coming up with my one point on which no one seems to empathise. That vegetation is 'Life' is my reccuring obsession (I cannot get the idea out of my head). We grow vegetables to eat; what is the difference ?

Is there anyone on this forum who feels as I do ?

That's always been my view. Life is life and should be respected. That means raising it and killing it in a humane manner. As for loving the animals I eat, I guess I'd have to say I don't "love" them. Ok....I love my chickens. They're my girls and, as such, have just entered the realm of pets who happen to lay eggs which makes them off limits for consumption.

Do I have to eat meat? Well, actually, yes if I want to be alive with my own kidneys in 10 years. My basic diet is mostly protein, vegetables and limited amounts of fruit. Vegetable proteins also contain carbohydrates which raise my sugar levels so they aren't an option. The low carb type of diet controls my blood sugar which means I don't have to take insulin.

And if you think I'm being morally superior because I value my life and health over the animals, I can live with that.

 

[linwood]

Vegetables do not suffer, at least, they don't have the neural mechanisms that we mammals associate with suffering.

I once removed my clothes and painted myself green at an arts festival. Alas, I did not seem to photosynthesize....

So the main opposition of killing animals for food is that they suffer?
If they didn`t suffer would it make a difference?

 

[Quoth The Raven]

Vegetables do not suffer, at least, they don't have the neural mechanisms that we mammals associate with suffering.

They don't have the neural mechanisms that we mammals associate with suffering...how do we know they don't have something we haven't worked out yet that is just as effective?
If the point you're making is that it's wrong to eat meat and you feel this way because you feel a certain empathy with another mammal that you just can't muster for a vegetable because as far as you know the vegie isn't a thinking, feeling entity, then that could just be a lack of empathy on your behalf. The same lack of empathy that allows a lot of other people to tuck into a steak and chips without the slightest feeling of guilt.

 

[Valjean]

"If they didn't suffer would it make a difference?"

It would, linwood, though I'd still remain vegetarian. I'd still be uncomfortable about exploiting them; about depriving them of their right to live a proper animal life.

"...how do we know they don't have something we haven't worked out yet that is just as effective?"

Effective at what LL? The neural capabilities of animals would be mostly useless in a blind, sessile organism like a plant.. They'd be a metabolic liability, in fact.
Of course, I can't say for sure plants don't have some sort of awareness we're unaware of, a la: The Secret Life of Plants. And I'm aware I could still be skewered on my above statement about exploitation.

Still, until someone invents synthetic food or I learn to photosynthesize I'm forced to exploit some life forms or starve myself.

 

[Quoth The Raven]

"If they didn't suffer would it make a difference?"

It would, linwood, though I'd still remain vegetarian. I'd still be uncomfortable about exploiting them; about depriving them of their right to live a proper animal life.

"...how do we know they don't have something we haven't worked out yet that is just as effective?"

Effective at what LL? The neural capabilities of animals would be mostly useless in a blind, sessile organism like a plant.. They'd be a metabolic liability, in fact.
Of course, I can't say for sure plants don't have some sort of awareness we're unaware of, a la: The Secret Life of Plants. And I'm aware I could still be skewered on my above statement about exploitation.

Still, until someone invents synthetic food or I learn to photosynthesize I'm forced to exploit some life forms or starve myself.

Something just as effective at transmitting what we would consider to be pain impulses.But you're right...ya gotta eat something. It's your personal choice which life forms you consider it reasonable to eat.

 

[john313]

Do I have to eat meat? Well, actually, yes if I want to be alive with my own kidneys in 10 years. My basic diet is mostly protein, vegetables and limited amounts of fruit. Vegetable proteins also contain carbohydrates which raise my sugar levels so they aren't an option. The low carb type of diet controls my blood sugar which means I don't have to take insulin.

And if you think I'm being morally superior because I value my life and health over the animals, I can live with that.

I actually listened to a MD speak recently about diabetics, but he encouraged a veterarian diet to many of his diabetic patients and they had a drastic reduction in the amount of insulin they took if not completely removing the need for it all together. I have also read about reflexology healing diabetes. Many things i have read on vegetarian/vegan diets say they are good for diabetics. it is the diet of meat that helps to make people diabetic. nuts and beans have a lot of protein.

 

[Saw11_2000]

I actually listened to a MD speak recently about diabetics, but he encouraged a veterarian diet to many of his diabetic patients and they had a drastic reduction in the amount of insulin they took if not completely removing the need for it all together. I have also read about reflexology healing diabetes. Many things i have read on vegetarian/vegan diets say they are good for diabetics. it is the diet of meat that helps to make people diabetic. nuts and beans have a lot of protein.

Why exactly do you not eat meat John? Unmoral? Or is it your health?

I would rather eat meat and get real protein for muscle health than get it from a pill or some vegetable/fruit.

 

[Druidus]

I would rather eat meat and get real protein for muscle health than get it from a pill or some vegetable/fruit.

Real protien? What the hell is that? Protein is protien. Where you get it doesn't matter, as long as you get all the right types (which, in fact, you get, amply, on a proper vegetarian/vegan diet). It has been proven, time again, that vegetarians are, on average, healthier then meat eaters.

It is a thoroughly and incomprehendingly weak argument to say that you eat both meat and plant matter because all life matters to you. By eating meat, you are, effectively, eating the plants that the animal had eaten, which compounds the amount of caused deaths. You cause more deaths by eating meat, or meat and plant matter, than if you had eaten just plant matter.

Perhaps we can look at the actual reasons why people eat meat. Sometimes, it can be comforting to not change. Some people might need it for medical reasons (I don't know what the disease would be though). By far, the most common reason is because of taste, and the unwillingness to go out of one's way, even for the life of a sentient being (Pigs are some of the smartest animals on Earth, being on the top ten smartest animals list). This in my opinion, is purely selfish (no offence).

 

[Saw11_2000]

Real protien? What the hell is that? Protein is protien. Where you get it doesn't matter, as long as you get all the right types (which, in fact, you get, amply, on a proper vegetarian/vegan diet). It has been proven, time again, that vegetarians are, on average, healthier then meat eaters.

It is a thoroughly and incomprehendingly weak argument to say that you eat both meat and plant matter because all life matters to you. By eating meat, you are, effectively, eating the plants that the animal had eaten, which compounds the amount of caused deaths. You cause more deaths by eating meat, or meat and plant matter, than if you had eaten just plant matter.

Perhaps we can look at the actual reasons why people eat meat. Sometimes, it can be comforting to not change. Some people might need it for medical reasons (I don't know what the disease would be though). By far, the most common reason is because of taste, and the unwillingness to go out of one's way, even for the life of a sentient being (Pigs are some of the smartest animals on Earth, being on the top ten smartest animals list). This in my opinion, is purely selfish (no offence).

Speaking of pigs, I did have pork tonight, although I did not eat too much of it.

I am saying I would rather have protein that is unaltered like the protein in red meat, than the protein in pills or powders.

I also just pulled up a page about protein in vegetarian diets, all but 2 of the choices, (Tempeh had the most protein) paled in comparison to the amount in steak. You would have to eat much more food to get the same amount of protein on a non-vegetarian diet. Also, all the choices on that page do not compare to the amount of protein in chicken.

http://www.weightlossforall.com/protein-chicken.htm
http://www.weightlossforall.com/protein-steak.htm
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm

 

[Druidus]

A cup of lentils will have more protein than a full red steak. I can get you several of the studies proving that vegetarians/vegans are healthier, if you like. Do you know a Dr. Irving Fischer (non-vegetarian)? He did a study at Yale, showing that stamina and recovery time are both better in vegetarians, and even better for vegans, than that of meat-eaters.

Tell me, exactly, what your arguments for meat, and I shall do my utmost to refute them as well as listing my own arguments for veganism/vegetarianism. You will then try to counterpoint mine, while expanding and adding to yours. And so-on, and so-forth.

 

[Majikthise]

is it right? I would appriciate your thoughts!

Yes. I like meat.I'm a bad ,bad man.

 

[Saw11_2000]

A cup of lentils will have more protein than a full red steak. I can get you several of the studies proving that vegetarians/vegans are healthier, if you like. Do you know a Dr. Irving Fischer (non-vegetarian)? He did a study at Yale, showing that stamina and recovery time are both better in vegetarians, and even better for vegans, than that of meat-eaters.

Tell me, exactly, what your arguments for meat, and I shall do my utmost to refute them as well as listing my own arguments for veganism/vegetarianism. You will then try to counterpoint mine, while expanding and adding to yours. And so-on, and so-forth.

I do not believe those studies are entirely correct. People who are vegetarians typically are more interested in their diets and will monitor their exact intake of vitamins and minerals. Most meat eaters, just eat without thinking. Of course, you have meat eaters who are just as healthy as vegetarians, it's just the ones who are very observant of their diets, unlike the sad majority of america.

One reason I like meat is because I like how it tastes. Try to prove that one wrong.

 

[Yerda]

I am saying I would rather have protein that is unaltered like the protein in red meat, than the protein in pills or powders.

Unaltered? Are you saying you eat your red meat raw? Does it taste good uncooked? (I know of people who claim it is healthier).

Likewise I like to get my protein from sources other than suplements.

As far as this thread goes, I'm still undecide as of ethics concerning the raising of animals for food. I find it chilling, but I cannot find an argument that indicates it is inherently wrong (although I harbour my suspicions).

Like abortion, sex, and money I have my own concerns, the rest of you can decide for yourself.

 

[john313]

Why exactly do you not eat meat John? Unmoral? Or is it your health?

I would rather eat meat and get real protein for muscle health than get it from a pill or some vegetable/fruit.

It was originally because of health, now it is health and moral. I educated myself more on health to try to avoid problems that so many people seem to have nowadays, especially diabetes that is on both sides of my family. protein from vegetables/beans/nuts is actually better than protein from meat in my opinion. meat has a very acidic effect on your body and is bad for general health and bones. i take vegan rice protein supplements since i work out 3 times a week and swim a mile 3 times a week. most people that work out take protein supplements whether they are meat eaters or not. if i was not as active as i am, then i would not take protein supplements.
I used to have the same opinion as you do about protein, then i started reading more and learning and decided to try vegetarianism then veganism. i feel healthier and actually stronger than i did as a meat eater(probably because i continued to work out).
most fruits do not have much protein, some vegetables have some, but we can get a lot of protein from beans and nuts and rice. pumpkin seeds are great for amino acids and protein as well as watermelon seeds. There are many more sources of protein.

 

[john313]

We must also remember there is a lot more to diet than protein. we need 50-75 grams of protein a day i think for an average person. that is easy to meet with a vegan diet, and with the vegan diet we get many of the other essential vitamins and minerals that are lacking in meats.

 

[kreeden]

Actually beans only produce protien if comblined with a grain , which is a carb . It is true .

Ok Druidus , I eat meat because I like the taste , refute that my friend .

 

[Yerda]

Ok Druidus , I eat meat because I like the taste , refute that my friend .

I understand this was not directed to me, but I am curious as to what there is to refute?

 

[kreeden]

I understand this was not directed to me, but I am curious as to what there is to refute?

My post was about beans producing protein . However , Druidus and I have talked about this before and I couldn't help but joke a bit about him saying that he would refute any reason for eating meat . Sorry .

 

[john313]

Actually beans only produce protien if comblined with a grain , which is a carb . It is true .

i have heard that before, but never looked into it since i normally eat beans with rice. beans and rice are a tasty combination .

 

[Valjean]

Actually beans only produce protein if combined with a grain , which is a crab . It is true .

OK Druidus , I eat meat because I like the taste , refute that my friend .

Beans don't "produce" protein, Kreeden, they're composed of it.

Protein, in turn, is composed of amino acids. Humans use 20 different amino acids, 9 of which we must get directly from food. The other 11 we can assemble metabolically.

Different foods have different percentages of amino acids. Most foods don't have an optimum mix -- they may be low in one or another. This is a problem, however, only if you're living on only a single food. With a varied diet amino acid excesses and deficits balance each other out.

You're body can only use a certain amount of protein. Eating more will not automatically be incorporated into big muscles -- it just gets broken down. Protein breakdown, by the way, can have metabolically deleterious effects if your intake is high.

As far as meat vs vegetable sources, if you're looking for really concentrated sources put down your burger and load up on something like broccoli or asparagus -- both have more protein, calorie for calorie, than beef. This myth that plants are protein deficient is just that -- pure myth.