Ethical to breed animals for its only purpose to be eaten?

[angellous_evangellous]

wow. those were fast replies!

hm... i dunno. i mean, one person said that humans are superior in thinking and all. and if we are, wouldnt we realize that we dont have to eat animals to survive? i mean, protien is abundant in beans and lentils. the only meat i think is worth eating is fish. I LOVE FISH. but it has the highest amount of protein. and the omega fat is good for the body. beef on the other hand has the lowest amount of protien and bad fat...

stuff to consider

That was me!! I have never had a remotely comparative coversation with a cow, that is, not as interesting as those with you folks in RF.

"Arise, Peter, kill, and eat." Acts 10.13

Happy eating!!!

 

[Saw11_2000]

Not all things that eat meat are bad, i'm not sure where that came from, but some animals are carnivores and omnivores, no one contested that. As stated above, humans do have the ability to process meat and remove nutrition from it, but a vegetarian/vegan diet is much better for the environment and healthier for the human. that link has some bad information from the 1800s for what a vegetarian diet should consist of "Note: This article was written in the 19th century. It is not representative of current medical knowledge."

Still, if the chimps eat, and they are closely related to us, then we should be eating meat too. Not to say we NEED meat, but we are designed to eat meat.

 

[Valjean]

Chimps also ambush and kill other chimps from neighboring bands. Goodall has even described a genocidal chimp "war." Should we emulate this?

In re: determining the propriety of carnivory by reference to various physical adaptations, humans long ago opted out of that race. Hominids thrive from arctic tundra to tropical jungle. We adapt culturally, not morphologically. With our tools and technology we can harvest and process food from the most unlikely sources, (what the heck is Quorn, anyway?)

If we drop the teleological arguments and acknowledge that humans can thrive either with or without meat, we're left with purely moral questions. Eg: What intrinsic qualities does a hominid have, that a bovine does not, that withholds your eating it?

 

[linwood]

Chimps also ambush and kill other chimps from neighboring bands. Goodall has even described a genocidal chimp "war." Should we emulate this?

Don`t we already?

In re: determining the propriety of carnivory by reference to various physical adaptations, humans long ago opted out of that race.

Speak for yourself, I can smell sirloin right now.



Eg: What intrinsic qualities does a hominid have, that a bovine does not, that withholds your eating it?

From a totally objective point of view it is unethical.
Subjectively..well there is a range of morality and measurements of ethics in use to justify it.

I for one cannot just stop eating and preparing meat because my family would suffer.
Subjectively speaking my family comes first.

 

[Saw11_2000]

Chimps also ambush and kill other chimps from neighboring bands. Goodall has even described a genocidal chimp "war." Should we emulate this?

Don`t we already?

In re: determining the propriety of carnivory by reference to various physical adaptations, humans long ago opted out of that race.

Speak for yourself, I can smell sirloin right now.



Eg: What intrinsic qualities does a hominid have, that a bovine does not, that withholds your eating it?

From a totally objective point of view it is unethical.
Subjectively..well there is a range of morality and measurements of ethics in use to justify it.

I for one cannot just stop eating and preparing meat because my family would suffer.
Subjectively speaking my family comes first.

For the first time Linwood, I agree with you, unlike the Bush and Clinton thread. FRUBALS TO YOU!!! =D

 

[Valjean]

"From a totally objective point of view it is unethical."

So you justify your sirloin with a "might makes right", "habit makes right", or convenience makes right" argument, Linwood?

 

[Natural Submission]

Clearly we are not primates. If they eat their babies, must we? We are a different species. We have many things in common with many animals of the Earth, this doesn't mean we do what they do.

 

[Saw11_2000]

Exactly, but we are most like primates. We have the ability to think for ourselves what is right or wrong, some people think eating meat is wrong,that's fine , but there is evidence that we are indeed intended to be primates, and I feel as though eating meat is the right thing, and I like steak with A-1.

Animal Activists try to impose their beliefs on everyone that it's evil to eat meat. That's great, but it's your opinion. The vast majority of the U.S. population supports the consumption of meat, while the vast majority of the U.S. population doesn't support eating their babies.

 

[linwood]

"From a totally objective point of view it is unethical."

So you justify your sirloin with a "might makes right", "habit makes right", or convenience makes right" argument, Linwood?

I myself have never once even attempted to justify it.
You`re putting words in my mouth.

 

[Quoth The Raven]

Clearly we are not primates. If they eat their babies, must we?

'If all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you do it too?'

We are a different species. We have many things in common with many animals of the Earth, this doesn't mean we do what they do.

Actually, we are not a different species to primates, because 'Primate' is an order, not a species. We are of the order primate and the super family Hominoidia and the family Hominidae, which comprises the sub families Pongo (orangutans) and Homininae, comprised of the genuses Gorilla (self explanatory), Pan (Chimpanzee),Homo (Humans) and several other genuses found only in the fossil record.

Animalia Chordata Mamalia Primates Hominidae Homo Sapiens - Human
Animalia Chordata Mamalia Primates Hominidae Pan Paniscus - Bonobo
Animalia Chrodata Mamalia Artiodactyla Bovidae (sub-familiy Bovinae) Bos Taurus - Domestic Cattle.
Animalia Chordata Mamalia Carnivora Felidae Panthera Leo - African Lion

For the person who asked what the difference between eating cows and eating people was, the same biological difference between a lion eating a cow and eating another lion.
We are not the same species as other primates, nor are we the same species as our ancestors in the fossil record. I am the same species as my next door neighbour, but that doesn't see me out working on my car at 11.00pm and keeping the neighbourhood awake.I would not expect a Great Dane to act like a Kelpie, and they are also exactly the same species. Species defines biology, not necessarily behaviour.
The argument being made by the continual reference to the dentition and eating habits of other primates (particularly the chimpanzee) is that we are biologically designed to be omnivorous. Whether we choose to be omnivorous or vegan, or vegetarian, or fruitarian, or even breatharian for that matter is exactly that...a matter of choice. Personally, I don't think it would be moral for me to force someone who had issues with eating meat to have a lamb roast for dinner just because that is what I want to eat. Unfortunately others don't seem to feel the same.
There are plenty of perfectly healthy people eating a balanced diet including meat, and there are plenty of healthy people eating a balanced diet that doesn't include meat.
There are also plenty of people who do not maintain a healthy diet, and they include people on both sides of the fence.

 

[No*s]

Chimps also ambush and kill other chimps from neighboring bands. Goodall has even described a genocidal chimp "war." Should we emulate this?

In re: determining the propriety of carnivory by reference to various physical adaptations, humans long ago opted out of that race. Hominids thrive from arctic tundra to tropical jungle. We adapt culturally, not morphologically. With our tools and technology we can harvest and process food from the most unlikely sources, (what the heck is Quorn, anyway?)

If we drop the teleological arguments and acknowledge that humans can thrive either with or without meat, we're left with purely moral questions. Eg: What intrinsic qualities does a hominid have, that a bovine does not, that withholds your eating it?

But for some of us, the teleological arguments (for me, it's my nature) are part of it. I see no reason to violate my nature. To the contrary, I see eating meat as simply being part of who I am and no ethical problems in it.

 

[john313]

Exactly, but we are most like primates. We have the ability to think for ourselves what is right or wrong, some people think eating meat is wrong,that's fine , but there is evidence that we are indeed intended to be primates, and I feel as though eating meat is the right thing, and I like steak with A-1.

Animal Activists try to impose their beliefs on everyone that it's evil to eat meat. That's great, but it's your opinion. The vast majority of the U.S. population supports the consumption of meat, while the vast majority of the U.S. population doesn't support eating their babies.

the prophets have taught us that generally what the vast majority does is wrong, that is why they often times were killed by the vast majority and the governments. (not that i think we should eat our babies).

 

[Valjean]

Good points, LadyLazarus. We are not "like" primates, we are primates.

In re: eating cows vs eating humans, though, I was wondering what intrinsic qualities resided in a perfectly wholesome hominid, that made it morally &/or gustatorily repugnant to us. The cow was included just as a comparative.

 

[Quoth The Raven]

Good points, LadyLazarus. We are not "like" primates, we are primates.

In re: eating cows vs eating humans, though, I was wondering what intrinsic qualities resided in a perfectly wholesome hominid, that made it morally &/or gustatorily repugnant to us. The cow was included just as a comparative.

I think it's mainly cultural, to be honest. There have been plenty of cultures that have practised cannibalism, be it ritual or otherwise. Why don't many of these cultures still do so? Because Westerners have come and changed their culture for them, in the name of God, or progress, or whatever.
I think a lot of that comes from the fact that we see ourselves (generally speaking) as above nature and beyond being part of the food chain. When you get beyond the place where 'sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you,' is a statement of fact, you no longer see yourself as the potential prey of anything. You can't take the point of veiw that it's ok to eat people without saying it's ok for someone to eat you. I don't know many people that would go for that idea.

 

[johnnys4life]

But isn't it true that if everyone were vegans we would not have enough land to raise all those vegetables? I mean, you can fit a heck of a lot of egg producing chickens and dairy cows in the same amount of space it would take to grow a few vegies. Plus the fact that we only have a limited amount of good topsoil for farming, but endless amounts of grass and hay. You could turn to hydroponics but it is difficult and expensive...

I don't know but I was a vegetarian for 5 years and wasn't too healthy. It was particularly difficult to get enough calcium. You'd have to eat about 9 cups of spinach every day just to get your RDA of calcium - or at least that's what I think I figured it up to be. Anyway it was a LOT.

The thing I have a problem with is that we eat way too much meat. Most people eat almost twice as much protein as they need - and then it becomes very bad for your health, and an uneccessary slaughter of an innocent animal. That just isn't right.

 

[john313]

But isn't it true that if everyone were vegans we would not have enough land to raise all those vegetables? I mean, you can fit a heck of a lot of egg producing chickens and dairy cows in the same amount of space it would take to grow a few vegies. Plus the fact that we only have a limited amount of good topsoil for farming, but endless amounts of grass and hay. You could turn to hydroponics but it is difficult and expensive...

I don't know but I was a vegetarian for 5 years and wasn't too healthy. It was particularly difficult to get enough calcium. You'd have to eat about 9 cups of spinach every day just to get your RDA of calcium - or at least that's what I think I figured it up to be. Anyway it was a LOT.

The thing I have a problem with is that we eat way too much meat. Most people eat almost twice as much protein as they need - and then it becomes very bad for your health, and an uneccessary slaughter of an innocent animal. That just isn't right.

it takes much less land to raise crops than animals. i know in the midwest the animals are fed a lot of corn and beans. i read it takes 10 pounds of food to make 1 pound of beef. that's a lot of crops going just for meat. I know several people that have been vegetarians/vegans for many many years and they get plenty of calcium and are extremely healthy. I do agree that too much meat is very unhealthy, that is why so many people get osteoporosis. they eat too much meat which has an acidic effect on the body and in turn eats away at the bones, it is not lack of calcium like the dairy producers would have us believe, cow milk is completely unnecessary for humans.
http://www.parrottalk.com/calcium.html here is a link to calcium content of many vegetables, there is also rice milk which has some calcium. they also make calcium supplements that are vegetarian/vegan. I know Total cereal brags about vitamins, i do not recall what it has for calcium though(their source for calcium is vegan according to general mills). vegetable calcium is much better than milk calcium due to the acidic effect milk has on the body.

 

[john313]

I just checked Total and it says it contains 100% RDA of calcium. so a bowl of Total with some rice milk gets your daily calcium, that's not too hard.

 

[Valjean]

In the US most -- yes, >50% -- of the grain grown goes to feed animals, and as john points out meat production is inherently inefficient. In fact, I think s/he is being overly generous, as I've read US husbandry grain:beef ratios more like 12:1. The grain needed to produce a meal of beef would yield many vegetarian meals. We could feed 200,000,000 vegetarians with a small fraction of the acreage needed for our current diet.

The comment on calcium reminds me of a quote:

"One farmer says to me.'You cannot live on vegetable food solely, for it furnishes nothing to make bones with' .... Walking all the while he talks behind his oxen, which, with vegetable made bones, jerk him and his lumbering plow along in spite of every obstacle." --- Henry David Thoreau.

 

[michel]

I almost feel embarassed coming up with my one point on which no one seems to empathise. That vegetation is 'Life' is my reccuring obsession (I cannot get the idea out of my head). We grow vegetables to eat; what is the difference ?

Is there anyone on this forum who feels as I do ?

 

[Valjean]

Vegetables do not suffer, at least, they don't have the neural mechanisms that we mammals associate with suffering.

I once removed my clothes and painted myself green at an arts festival. Alas, I did not seem to photosynthesize....