Eucharist levitation miracle assisted by the late Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger of Par

[Quiddity]

Who says Chris Angel isn't doing "real" magic?

Not me...I was just implying that "magic" is not intended to send the same message as it was in ancient times.

 

[MaddLlama]

So, FFH, has the Catholic Church declared this to be a miracle?

 

[FFH]

Right, because your judgment on these things is so trustworthy, nobody could possibly disagree with you.

Doesn't matter if you disagree with me, it's all good..

 

[FFH]

So, FFH, has the Catholic Church declared this to be a miracle?

Well, Cardinal Lustiger was very close to John Paul II, so I would think that he also witnessed this miracle and/or reviewed it on tape, but I'm not sure if he deemed it an official miracle or not.

That would be a good thing to look into...

I'm at work so can't do much right now, maybe someone else can look it up..

 

[doppelganger]

Not me...I was just implying that "magic" is not intended to send the same message as it was in ancient times.

I agree with that assessment. Nor are "miracles."

For something to be experienced as a "miracle" one must have pre-existent faith. The only exception is if one changes the meaning of "miracle" to mean (as it should) "that for which I cannot discern a causal process" (in which case any individual is surrounded by miracles on a daily basis, but scientists less so).
But let's face it. That's rarely what a person means by "miracle." Since miracle used in the "supernatural" sense isn't an experience but a judgment, it requires a dualistic construct in order for such a judgment to be made (i.e. "natural v. supernatural"). Faith determines whether an event is perceived as supernatural, not the other way around.

 

[Quiddity]

Right. What difference does that make though? I can choose to ignore him, or imagine a scenario in which "God" has told him to not reveal the miraculous nature of his deeds, and thereby change my perspective to see the "miracles" again.

"Miracle" is a judgment, not an external thing. Specifically it's a judgment that one will stop looking for an explanation. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It is certainly one's prerogative.

But by that same token, one engaged in looking for miracles shouldn't be all that surprised when someone more determined to understand a phenomenon finds the circumstances to be not all that miraculous.

Who say's that one must stop looking for an explanation?

 

[doppelganger]

Who say's that one must stop looking for an explanation?

Not me. You won't find the word "must" in the post you quoted.

 

[Quiddity]

I agree with that assessment. Nor are "miracles."

For something to be experienced as a "miracle" one must have pre-existent faith. The only exception is if one changes the meaning of "miracle" to mean (as it should) "that for which I cannot discern a causal process" (in which case any individual is surrounded by miracles on a daily basis, but scientists less so).
But let's face it. That's rarely what a person means by "miracle." Since miracle used in the "supernatural" sense isn't an experience but a judgment, it requires a dualistic construct in order for such a judgment to be made (i.e. "natural v. supernatural"). Faith determines whether an event is perceived as supernatural, not the other way around.

I agree that is what usually happens, but it doesn't have to. There is a couple miracles in the Catholic Church (recognized and official ones) for example that I can doubt and continue to question and it does little to my faith.

 

[doppelganger]

I agree that is what usually happens, but it doesn't have to. There is a couple miracles in the Catholic Church (recognized and official ones) for example that I can doubt and continue to question and it does little to my faith.

Well "faith" doesn't need miracles. I'm not arguing that. "Miracles" need faith is what I'm saying.

 

[Quiddity]

Not me. You won't find the word "must" in the post you quoted.

I stand corrected.

Who say's "it's a judgment that one will stop looking for an explanation" as the norm for categorizing it as a miracle?

 

[Quiddity]

Well "faith" doesn't need miracles. I'm not arguing that. "Miracles" need faith is what I'm saying.

Got it...

All I was saying is that they can and should be scrutinized by the sciences. But even when concrete answers are lacking, no meaning is ascribed to it.

 

[FFH]

I believe the "Mary" miracles are from God, because I've witnessed one and felt the spirit of it...

I saw an image of Mary suddenly shed tears as a young extremely beautiful Hispanic young woman approached the image, sobbing uncontrolably, and watched the image at the same time, to see what would happen, and tears started to flow from the image as well..

I felt the spirit of that moment and it was very strong. She was the only person sobbing amongst a couple hundred other Hispanics gathered around the image, me and the woman next to me were the only caucasians, and when she (young Hispanic woman) approached the image it wept, also, and at no other time before or after she approached the image, in a two hour period of waiting in line, did it even shed a tear...

There is a good side to Catholicism, and I feel the spirit of it very strongly, for those who would think I think otherwise...

My wife is a former Catholic, so obviously good things can come out of Catholicism...

She also has a very very strong spirit about her...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The video shows various moments of the ceremony during which the concelebrants move around and it is thus possible to see, between the levitating host and the host resting on the paten, the colors of the vestments of the celebrants.

However, it does not show something particularily telling: any reaction at all by the celebrant or his assistants, who were paying very close attention to the Host as part of the ceremony, and were in the best position to see anything odd.

If you witnessed a miracle, would you continue with business as usual?

 

[FFH]

However, it does not show something particularily telling: any reaction at all by the celebrant or his assistants, who were paying very close attention to the Host as part of the ceremony, and were in the best position to see anything odd.

If you witnessed a miracle, would you continue with business as usual?

Great point and great observation. Cardinal Lustiger, who was the concelebrant, had no reaction, and neither did Cardinal Bille', the celebrant.

I reason they had no reaction to this miracle is because they have probably done this before in private and in public, but this is the only one that has been filmed that I know of, it being filmed and broadcast on live French television...

How many times do you think they (these Cardinals) have done this before, so it would be no shock to them to see it happen again, but would continue focusing their energies towards the miracle happening...

Were Pharoahs magicians shocked when they turned their staffs into snakes ???? No they absolutely were not because they had performed miracles before and were confidnent in their abilities...and had witnessed miracles before.

I've witnessed a "Mary" miracle and when the image of the miracle began to weep I noticed that no one gasped or said a word and I didn't even see anyone notice the tears and if they did they were used to it shedding tears, but this was the first time I had seen it and I didn't flinch an inch because I expected it to shed tears sooner or later if I stared at it long enough ... I took about an hour or so to witness this miracle and I was pretty tired of standing in line at that point, but was definietely surprised when I saw the tears flow, but said nothing to the only caucasion standing next to me amongst a couple of hundred Hispanics who were used to this miracle.

The tears were collected in a small simple can someone had placed there and I decided to touch the tears and was actually physically shocked a bit, and felt power from those real human tears, when I did touched them...

These tears were tested and were deemed real human tears by labs here in Salt Lake..

There is power in Mary's tears. She is shedding them for us and wants us to come back and reconcile with his Son...

Sounds odd ??? Well that's the message I got loud and clear from this experience...

 

[doppelganger]

I stand corrected.

Who say's "it's a judgment that one will stop looking for an explanation" as the norm for categorizing it as a miracle?

That's dictated by its use as a symbol. [#25] The meaning can be changed (as suggested by #25) and then what you are characterizing as a "norm" would too.

 

[Quiddity]

That's dictated by its use as a symbol. [#25] The meaning can be changed (as suggested by #25) and then what you are characterizing as a "norm" would too.

Well, we are both doing it.

But I disagree that it's not "external".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Great point and great observation. Cardinal Lustiger, who was the concelebrant, had no reaction, and neither did Cardinal Bille', the celebrant.

I reason they had no reaction to this miracle is because they have probably done this before in private and in public, but this is the only one that has been filmed that I know of, it being filmed and broadcast on live French television...

How many times do you think they (these Cardinals) have done this before, so it would be no shock to them to see it happen again, but would continue focusing their energies towards the miracle happening...

Let me figure out the implications of what you're presenting.

First, you're suggesting that the Eucharist did hover of its own accord in the video with no trickery, optical illusions* or Hollywood special effects. This seems improbable.

Second, you're now suggesting that this improbable event happened with such regularity in private with the celebrants that they were accustomed to it. On its face, this is even more improbable than it happening a single time. Also, it suggests different motivations for whatever divine agency was causing the levitation.

Third, you're suggesting that devout Catholic priests, when confronted with an obvious miracle, would tell nobody and would instead not react at all when it happens in public, rather than rightly and properly proclaiming it as a miracle by God and a concrete testament to their Faith and to the Church.

I have problems with all three of these implications.


*Since it's parallel to the dish below, I'd think that reflection off the gold dish is my likely culprit for something that the camera would see and the people wouldn't without any kind of tomfoolery. Light hitting the lens of a video camera can do odd things; I've personally seen what I could've sworn to be rain caused by the fabric of a model's dress during a fashion show that I was filming (I actually looked up from the eyepiece to see if the roof was leaking!).

Were Pharoahs magicians shocked when they turned their staffs into snakes ???? No they absolutely were not because they had performed miracles before and were confidnent in their abilities...and had witnessed miracles before.

However, the men standing in the middle of a desert mirage wouldn't react when you see the water disappear, because it was never there to begin with.

 

[doppelganger]

Well, we are both doing it.

We are both doing what?

But I disagree that it's not "external".

I don't know what you are referring to with that comment. :help:

 

[FFH]

The cause of Lustiger's death has not been released yet and it's been almost two full days..

Cardinal Lustiger dies at 80

Converted to Catholicism and rose through church ranks

Updated: 8:39 p.m. MT Aug 5, 2007

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PARIS - Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger, a Jew who converted to Catholicism and rose through church hierarchy to become one of the most influential Roman Catholic figures in France, died Sunday, the Paris archbishop’s office said. He was 80.
Lustiger — whose Polish immigrant mother died in the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz — was archbishop of Paris for 24 years before stepping down in 2005 at the age of 78. He died in a hospice in Paris, the archbishop’s office said.

A cause of death was not immediately provided, but Lustiger had said in April that he was being treated for a “grave illness.”

From this page: Cardinal Lustiger dies at 80 - Europe - MSNBC.com

 

[Quiddity]

We are both doing what?

This always seem to happen with us.

We are both characterizing something as a norm.

I don't know what you are referring to with that comment. :help:

Post# 20 you said:
"Miracle" is a judgment, not an external thing.

And I disagreed.