Eucharist levitation miracle assisted by the late Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger of Par

[Quiddity]

So, are you trying to say that Catholics are Pagans?

Well, I know from experience that is a common Protestant outcry. Nothing new there.

 

[Willamena]

Not settling for a label is no different then settling for one. In terms of attaching what is meaningful to things.

I used "settling for a label" as a synonym for recognition. It gets labelled with an identity through recognition.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You misunderstand me..

The deception is that it's God performing this miracle, when in acutality it's from another source..

God is not the only one who has powers, there are other gods with similar powers...

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me"

God himself recognizes that there are other gods, with powers similar to his own...

What limit do you think these gods have power to do ???? Can they also raise the dead ???

Can they cause earthquakes or lightning and fire to reign down from the heavens, etc. ????

According to scripture they have certain powers given to them by God which they are allowed to use...for the time being...

And my point is that if you start considering these ideas before giving rational explanations a fair shake, then you're getting ahead of yourself.

Seeing how there are several places in the world that have made an entire industry out of creating visual images of things that do not really exist, I think it's prudent to at least consider the idea of deception or fakery before declaring it to be the supernatural actions of an unknown entity who has had God's powers temporarily bestowed on it.

 

[FFH]

For instance, look at these scripture links and study it out for yourself...

God and Christians are not the only ones who have powers to perform miracles.

Revelation 13: 14
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 16: 14
For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Revelation 19: 20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For instance, look at these scripture links and study it out for yourself...

God and Christians are not the only ones who have powers to perform miracles.

Again, you're getting ahead of yourself. First establish that it's a miracle at all, then try to figure out who did it.

 

[Gentoo]

The video is far too fuzzy for me to make a judgment either way. But if I had to wager a guess, it would seem to me that God has more miraculous tasks on his list than making a host hover not even an inch.

 

[FFH]

The priests of Baal, in the scriptures, also had power to do miracles, and could call down fire from heaven, as could the priests/prophets of God.....

 

[Bishka]

The video is far too fuzzy for me to make a judgment either way. But if I had to wager a guess, it would seem to me that God has more miraculous tasks on his list than making a host hover not even an inch.

Amen!

 

[Quiddity]

I used "settling for a label" as a synonym for recognition. It gets labelled with an identity through recognition.

Recognition?

I'm not sure I understand?

 

[Willamena]

Recognition?

I'm not sure I understand?

When we've recognized a "miracle" as having occured, we have stopped looking for an explanation. The label is given, the judgement is made. That is "meaning attached to things." (That's not meant to interpret what doppleganger said, but to clarify the question I'd asked.)

"Not settling on a label" means nothing, for us, occured.

 

[FFH]

So, are you trying to say that Catholics are Pagans?

No, of course not...

Lustiger was heavily involved with Freemasonry and this practice of levitation may have stemmed from that, which may have Pagan roots...

Does Freemasonry have Pagan roots and does the practice of levitation have Pagan origins ????

I need to do my research...

All LDS are not Freemasons, just as all Catholics are not Freemasons, but Lustiger was heavily involved with Freemasonry and so are many LDS, which may have roots in Paganism..

Again, I need to do my research...

Really would like to find out for sure by what power the practice of levitation is performed and from what religion is it's origin...

I don't ever recall Jesus ever practicing levitation on anything, human or otherwise...even though he had the power to do so..

 

[FFH]

Seeing how there are several places in the world that have made an entire industry out of creating visual images of things that do not really exist, I think it's prudent to at least consider the idea of deception or fakery before declaring it to be the supernatural actions of an unknown entity who has had God's powers temporarily bestowed on it.

I hear ya loud and clear...

I really do not detect any superimposed images or any trace of computer generated materials on that video...

Usually you can see a clear outline of a computer generated graphic...

I notice details in things that others might not, even the smallest of details.

There are no flaws or imperfections in that video, which can be seen in computer generated films.

There are usually motions that don't add up to real life situations, etc. etc...

 

[Hope]

Well "faith" doesn't need miracles. I'm not arguing that. "Miracles" need faith is what I'm saying.

You're right....partly. True faith doesn't need miracles. However, the reasoning doesn't immediately follow that the reverse is always true.

Regardless of whether this particular instance was a real "miracle" or not, I see the same ol' arguments from those determined not to believe in miraculous events. They try to "redefine" miracles, explain away miracles....whatever it takes not to believe. It wouldn't matter if God parted the Red Sea again.....those who are determined to be skeptical, will always be skeptical. Those who believe in miracles have a more open mindset, imo. It seems those who dismiss miracles have already made up their minds in advance.

 

[FFH]

Again, you're getting ahead of yourself. First establish that it's a miracle at all, then try to figure out who did it.

The only way to prove this video is authentic is to find out if the Vatican acknowledged this event as a miracle and documented it.

Would that be enough to convince the skeptics ???

Maybe a few...

 

[Bishka]

The only way to prove this video is authentic is to find out if the Vatican acknowledged this event as a miracle and documented it.

No it does not. Just because a religious group acknowledged a event as a miracle does not mean it is one. For example, let's say a group of "any religion" filmed a video and caught something 'miraculous' on tape. This does not mean it actually happened or that it was a miracle.

Would that be enough to convince the skeptics ???

Doubt it

Maybe a few...

Doubt that too.

 

[FFH]

There is another link to this Lourdes Eucharist miracle on this page somewhere, been searching but still haven't found it...

Long page of links here.

Catholic Apparitions & Miracles on Squidoo
View topic - Eucharistic Miracle at Lourdes in 1999? ...

Lot's of good stuff on that page, been viewing and reading some of it..

 

[FFH]

No it does not. Just because a religious group acknowledged a event as a miracle does not mean it is one. For example, let's say a group of "any religion" filmed a video and caught something 'miraculous' on tape. This does not mean it actually happened or that it was a miracle.

Yeah, everyone has to decide within themselves what to believe...

Just came across this yesterday and thought it very unusual..

Very unusual..

I mean how many times do you you see an Archbishop levitating a Eucharist....

Way too sureal for me...

Will there be bigger miracles to follow in the future ???

 

[Bishka]

I mean how many times do you you see an Archbishop levitating a Eucharist....


Will there be bigger miracles to follow in the future ???

Or fakes? This video doesn't prove anything except some people are gullible to believe anything. I am not saying it was a miracle or not. When I think of miracles, I think of little things that happened to people and they do not broadcast it to the world. Miracles don't create believers (remember Laman and Lemuel???) Like Victor stated earlier, the real miracles are not in parting the sea or things like that. Real miracles are in the change of heart.

 

[Willamena]

You're right....partly. True faith doesn't need miracles. However, the reasoning doesn't immediately follow that the reverse is always true.

If you see a miraculous thing, and say, "Hey, that's a miracle!" (sincerely) haven't you already put your faith in it?

 

[doppelganger]

If you see a miraculous thing, and say, "Hey, that's a miracle!" (sincerely) haven't you already put your faith in it?

The act of observing a phenomenon is the act of giving particular sensory experiences significance. That changes what one is observing, because the significance or meaning (whatever it may be), is a relational state produced by the observer's interpretive process (i.e. perspective). The mere act of observing changes the "thing" observed by giving it signficance\context. So in part even the act of discerning the cause of a phenomenon as "unknown" is similar to labeling it a "miracle" as the act of merely identifying a collection of sensations as a phenomenon already does that. The "cause," such as it is, in either the case of "miracles" or "scientific explanations" is the same either way - the perception of the phenomenon "creates" the phenomenon and the meaning (the after the fact "cause") is assigned according to the ongoing process of relating things in the observer's perspective.

There's rudimentary psychology even in the atom.