Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Humanism is what laws the society makes at any time. Beating women or having slaves was OK around 1,500 years ago.
Take any religion for that matter. I am not pointing fingers particularly at Islam.
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Ever notice how atheists are virtually always on the opposite side from God on many issues?
- Thread starter Patrick66
- Start date
Take any religion for that matter. I am not pointing fingers particularly at Islam.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
That is the methodology of science, progress step by step.
Why should you expect that it is not possible?
True believers cannot provide even an iota of evidence for their God, or that someone was a messenger from that God, or that what that person said was a directive from that God.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Okay, and?
You're comparing apples and oranges; objective facts to values.
Yes. Their belief is definitively irrational.
Do you dispute this?..such as the progress that our way of life contributes to climate change?
This is a claim of magic -- effect without mechanism. Do you really think this is rational?
You make many claims, but provide no evidence.
Knowledge from observation and imagination is not faith. At most it's speculation. It needs only testing to become knowledge.
Why put faith in anything? Unevidenced belief is not reliable, and it's certainly not knowledge or wisdom.
Yes. it's exactly what I and others have been pointing out. Creationists are the ones claiming something came from nothing, not the scientists.
So why do creationists keep bring it up, and accusing us of it, if they, themselves, are its author?
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
I think your remark is senselessIs there any other sense? If it is not in physical sense, then it is senseless.
I can't "see" your thoughts .. even if I was standing next to you,
or had the latest technology.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Was it?
It depends on what you mean by those things..
Mankind oppress one another in any system .. slave labour still exists throughout the world.
..and regards "beating", it is more about psychology than causing harm.
I assume you don't agree with smacking a child .. whatever..
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
..your opinion only .. I see that many believers are intelligent beings .. many are Doctors of medicine,
and many take their religion as more than cultural belief.
i.e. they have knowledge of religion through study.
Dispute what?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Being intelligent does not guarantee that one is rational.
Some corrections and further explanations in this for you. These are technically stages of consciousness development, which speaks to the modalities of how the mind conceptualizes and perceives reality. These are laid out basically as the archaic, magic, mythic, rational, pluralistic, integral, etc. The model I'll link to below uses 10 stages, though other models breaks them out differently. You can scroll down and see brief explanations of them for your awareness.
These are developmental stages that anyone at a higher level had to grow through and master or integrate the lessons of the lower levels or the levels that preceded it. It's like saying you can't skip being 4 years old before you can be 7 years old. They follow in order.
What that means then is that is is incorrect to say that somebody at stage 4 the rational stage, cannot understand or relate to someone at stage 3 with their mythic-literal views and language. If they only set aside their current views of truth and reality and take a step back into their own history, they can remember what is was like being that sort of a thinker, and whatever age that was they were in that stage themselves. Again, it is not possible they weren't ever in that stage because you can't skip levels.
However, it is true as you say that someone at stage 3, the mythic stages, cannot understand stages 4 and above. That is for the simple reason they have never yet seen the world through those eyes. A 20 year old can remember what the world was to them when then were 13, but a 13 year old cannot understand the world seen through the eyes of a 20 year old. It is outside of their direct experience to begin to attempt to relate.
But one major difference with these stages is that they are divided up between 1st Tier and 2nd Tier. 1st Tier stages, which are the postmodernist stage and below, tend to see only their own level as correctly interpreting the world or reality. They see the previous stages, their own histories in fact, as having been wrong, but now they have got the correct ideas about reality. Each of those 1st Tier stages (1-5) see themselves as true, and all the others as wrong.
They see the higher stages than themselves as "crazy", because they cannot relate to those more advanced and sophisticated modes of understanding the world. The mythic stages sees the modernist rational stage as "deceived by the devil", or blinded by sin to not see the simple truths of the world as they see them. The rational stages sees the mythic stage as childish, naive, foolish, ignorant, and uneducated. They see that previous stage as an error of reason, faith is seen as "bad reasoning", and the like, reading its own mode of translating reality as the correct true standard by which to judge all others.
And then likewise those at the rational stage having not yet experienced seeing the world at a stage they have not yet experienced, see those higher stages as "crazy" or "woo woo", and typically mistake them as an earlier stages before the rational stage. This is known as the pre/trans fallacy, mistaking higher stages as lower stages because they cannot relate anything in their own experiences to something they understand, like the 'stupid mistakes of reason' seen in the magic and mythic stages.
Then we get to 2nd Tier stages. In 2nd Tier, the Integral stage and beyond, it sees all the previous stages as "true but partial". It recognizes the validity of the different modes of thinking and reasoning and translations of reality, as it can see all of these stages within their own growth histories. We weren't "wrong" when we were younger. We were right, for what tools we had available at the time, which functioned well for us given the stage of development we were at.
But with all of these stages, as those modes exhausted their usefulness to us, and greater and newer needs arose, we brought forward the good, positive lessons of those previous stages, while abandoning those things of those stages which no longer functioned well for the new emerging levels. The stage of rationality owes its existence to the lessons learned at the mythic stages, both the good and the bad. Nothing is truly lost. Everything is brought forward and integrated into an encompassing, holistic view of truth and reality. "Everyone has a piece of the truth", is a favorite motto of those at the Integral or 2nd Tier stages.
So finally, it is wrong to say to a person at the magic or mythic stage to, "Pick a Reality and stick with it." Clearly, the goal should be to try to grow to the next level, if and when they are ready to of course. But you do make a certain point that bears better clarification. It's something I argue as well.
What you see with things like Creationism, or Biblical Literalism even, is taking mythic level data, appropriate and true at the Mythic level, and trying to make it fit into the Rational level. This is where you see trying to determine the age of the earth by collating all the genealogies of the Bible together, or force-fitting the days of creation to match or reject modern science. It is as I say, "Bad science, and bad theology, or bad faith".
That is an example of an earlier stage trying to adopt the language and modes of a more developed and sophisticated later stages without having earned it, to attempt to elevate that earlier stage (mythic or traditionalist) as an equal competitor to that higher stage (rational or modernist). The image of a child putting on the shoes and hat of an adult and a long tie in a 'business suit' and trying to sit in at a board of directors meeting comes to mind. They simply aren't ready to do science yet. It's "play science", to coin a new term for me. They haven't earned a seat at that table yet, so to speak.
I'm pleased that you do show some understanding of this, but I thought this might be helpful to you to have more information about it. This link here can explain a little more, if you are interested.
The New Integral Theory Essentials Page
Know the most important ideas and charts of Integral Theory!
integraleuropeanconference.com
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Ostronomos
Well-Known Member
Right. Just like Quantum teleportation, entanglement and wavefunctions are all material. Okay there buddy.
Again, it is not the material world that is real, it is the quantum wavefunction that is the only thing that is real.
It comes into our universe from ultimate reality.
Ostronomos
Well-Known Member
If they are real then they are material. What alternative is there?
Prove it. If I hit your foot with a hammer I will bet it’ll be plenty real to you.
Not super ultimate reality? It’s new and improved.
Do you view Ultimate Reality as an entity, a being, or a creature of sorts? God to me is just a word meant to point to Ultimate Reality, which embraces all that is, without illusion. But for those who cannot imagine the Infinite Absolute, they make it "A God", or an "entity" or "a being". This is the language of both the young believer, and their counterpart the atheist who doesn't believe in that "entity".
Then you do not know what it is. You certainly have a faith of your own, as does everyone.
I can see this is foreign to your understanding and your experience. I'll see if I can attempt to explain this to one who has no experience with this. It is not strange or uncommon at all.
Have you ever heard of the expression one cannot see the forest for the trees? Excessive focus on details obscures the larger picture, and wider and more expansive perspective. This is by no means "floating". If you are doing that, you aren't meditating. You're drifting, wandering around, or even falling asleep. It is a focus, but instead of for instance on a single mental or physical object, a thought or a flame of a candle, it relaxes perception to take in everything it can, without focusing on any one thing in particular.
Think of it like a predator bird sitting looking for prey. It doesn't scan every millimeter of earth in lineal grid patterns in order to see a mouse. It takes in the whole landscape without expending energies to target a mouse. This awareness meditation. It is relaxed, but aware - not drifting. It is "focused" in the sense of focused on everything and nothing at the same time. Then when something arises in that wide open field of vision, that is when a laser focus on nothing but that single object kicks in. That is when goes from a relaxed state, to a deadly focused attack.
This is what the martial art form of T'ai Chi does. It is a relaxed meditative state of awareness of all objects, fully present in the moment, not at all drifting, nor fixating on a single object. When the need to act arises, then we strike with focused precision without wasted energies.
Both types of meditation practices are useful, but they have different effects and results.
Now you ask, what "insights" can arise from doing an awareness meditation? Plenty! Again, back to unable to see the forest for the trees. Let's say there are issues in your personal life that are a snarled, tangled, complex knot of things that you cannot unravel by focusing on a single issue and using all your brain power to try to solve it.
Standing back from it, taking your focus off of it, distracting yourself with anything else for instance, often times allows the solution to simply arise from the deep, from the subconscious mind. The thinking rational mind trying to figure things out, more often makes that ball more difficult to untangle, because it pulls with force, rather than letting it simply loosen without tugging at it, and letting the solution simply present itself to you without effort.
These are all very practical, yet completely counterintuitive ways of living life and problem resolution to the human ego, which through effort and force attempts to figure things out through intense focus and might of will. No, these are "external" forms, and not the "internal" forms. This is force vs power. True power comes through no-effort. Insight meditation trains the mind to relax, not collapse or drift, in order to effortlessly move through life. This is the essence of all the great Wisdom traditions, and the highest martial arts forms. In T'ai Chi, you never use force.
I can get a sense of what you know by what you say and how you say those things. And through this, it does inform me of the limitations of what you know or understand about these things.
But I will add, you have been assuming wrongly many, many things about where I am and and what I believe, so what you just said for me to understand, you need to apply for yourself with me.
Okay, thanks. We have many members here who follow Hinduism and Buddhism who are former Christians, and many have the symbols of those faiths for their avatars as well.
Of course, I am well aware of this. It just seems odd that these things you reject appear to be the core teachings and essence of the religious system you identify with.
I agree with this. You will make note how often I refer to "Ultimate Reality"? That is the Absolute level, or "paramarthika satya".
Would you say that Ultimate Reality does not actually exist then?
Again with your assumptions. I absolutely do not have any dependence upon scripture. And I comprehend this more than you realize. You have a surprising lack of humility and insights for one who claims they are Enlightened.
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Religious beliefs are completely unevidenced. Humanism has reshaped the world and significantly improved the human condition through the inventions of science and the modern liberal, secular state. These are the result of basic humanist values regarding the role reason plays in determining how the world works and what is the optimal society, that is, reason applied to evidence and empathy. There is no place for faith in imagined spirits or religious commandments in such a world view. We don't pray and we don't obey clergy speaking for imagined gods. We study and work. We learn by trial and error, guided by our accumulated knowledge and consciences.
That's self-contradictory (incoherent). Evidence is that which is evident to the senses. Unless you are claiming to have extra senses, nothing that is evident to you is not evident to all if they use the right sensory apparatus at the right time in the right place.
Agreed. If you'd like a taste of religious pudding, take a trip to Afghanistan, or back in time to the Middle Ages before the Enlightenment.
Or, have a taste of humanist pudding, where free, autonomous citizens live longer, more functional, more comfortable, easier, and more interesting lives in pursuit of happiness as they understand it are gradually replacing older order.
Critical thinking is the pinnacle of human intellectual achievement. Skepticism and empiricism are two of the most powerful ideas ever. The only rational position to take concerning gods is agnosticism, and lacking a belief in god means atheism for me. Nature can be regarded as sacred without injecting divinity into it or removing the sacred from it and exporting it to some commandment-issuing ghost outside of nature.
That's not the result of humanistic values. It's humanists leading the charge to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Here's part of the problem, and it's not humanistic thinking at all:
"We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand" - James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under Reagan (note his position and responsibilities)
DNB
Christian
They're utterly bewildered.