Everyday Sexism by Females

[freethinker44]

Yeah I'm done trying to explain it to you.

I know, it can be pretty difficult to defend sexism sometimes. I would want to quit too, but more likely I would just realize I was wrong since I don't want to be sexist.

 

[Apex]

I know, it can be pretty difficult to defend sexism sometimes. I would want to quit too, but more likely I would just realize I was wrong since I don't want to be sexist.

Isn't it funny how some people can admit to a cultural bias of accepted sexism towards males in on thread, and then turn around and actually support it in another?

 

[freethinker44]

Isn't it funny how some people can admit to a cultural bias of accepted sexism towards males in on thread, and then turn around and actually support it in another?

To be fair, I'm guessing it's more of an individual defending the group at the expense of the individuals ideology and not so much overt sexism. The article is overtly sexist, for sure. Defending it probably not so much. "Probably", it still could be.

To be honest, I didn't expect the discussion to last long. Applying the statement to another group almost always ends the discussion. It's easy to rationalize sexism against men, it's not so easy to rationalize the same hateful statement when applied to another stereotype. Your options are to continue defending it and look like a complete bigot, admit fault, or rage quit.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Taking precautions against a crime is completely different than assuming all members of particular group are criminals until proven otherwise. Besides, you yourself have said that the majority of rapes are committed by someone you know so there is no excuse to assume all strange men are trying to rape you when facts tell say otherwise.

That isn't what the blog said.

The fear that is instilled in women to be more careful is manifesting in all sort of precautions that isn't instilled in men. I've brought up the question many times on RF and elsewhere....why don't we teach our sons how to not get raped? Why are we focusing all our efforts on telling girls and women what to wear, how to talk, how to walk, call or text another friend when you get home safely, etc.?

I've brought up the discrepancy many times. One of the fallouts to consistently telling women they need to be more careful is taking extra pre-cautions like this.

Would you consider it sexist if someone assumed all women were gold diggers until they prove otherwise? Would you consider it racist if someone assumed all black people are going to steal from you until they prove otherwise?

Nobody is demanding men prove anything. This is a perspective of a woman who is hoping she'll live to see another day in a culture that tells her she has a higher risk of being assaulted if she walks alone at night. Paranoia? It can be. But that's what happens when culture ignores the facts and clings to rape myths.

I can't believe you don't understand how incredibly offensive this is. Rapists are considered the lowest form of human scum alive, even amongst other criminals and this article is making the argument that it is acceptable to assume all men are like this.

It IS offensive. It's offensive to everybody. Of course #notallmen are rapists. Women get that. Women know it. Women live it. But the point was that all women are in fear of getting assaulted.

So, can we work on the facts, and not on the myths perpetuated by rape culture? Hey, I'm ready to smash rape culture to bits and pieces, but I can't do it if I gotta explain that the culture hurts everybody involved. It's completely unfair that men are looked at with suspicion. It's also completely unfair that women have to live their lives in fear.

So, solution? Okay, tell women to watch their drinks. Tell women to take self-defense courses. Tell women to not wear ponytails, not to get too drunk at frat parties, to lock their doors right after getting home or getting in the car.

But if that narrative will continue to be exploited over and over again, then the culture needs to tell men not to act suspiciously, not to carry anything that can be looked like a weapon or a restraining device, not to approach any women walking alone at night for anything, don't offer to bring a drink to a woman, and on and on and on (you know the drill).

Basically, I'd see the blog post as sexist if the promptings toward women to be more careful at frat parties was seen as sexist too. I don't see it as sexist. I see it as perpetuating a culture that expects men to assault women.

Guess what....that's messed up all around.

 

[freethinker44]

I see it as perpetuating a culture that expects men to assault women.

Which is sexist. Just like perpetuating a culture that expects women to want sex if they wear revealing clothing is sexist.

 

[Drolefille]

That isn't what the blog said.

The fear that is instilled in women to be more careful is manifesting in all sort of precautions that isn't instilled in men. I've brought up the question many times on RF and elsewhere....why don't we teach our sons how to not get raped? Why are we focusing all our efforts on telling girls and women what to wear, how to talk, how to walk, call or text another friend when you get home safely, etc.?

I've brought up the discrepancy many times. One of the fallouts to consistently telling women they need to be more careful is taking extra pre-cautions like this.



Nobody is demanding men prove anything. This is a perspective of a woman who is hoping she'll live to see another day in a culture that tells her she has a higher risk of being assaulted if she walks alone at night. Paranoia? It can be. But that's what happens when culture ignores the facts and clings to rape myths.



It IS offensive. It's offensive to everybody. Of course #notallmen are rapists. Women get that. Women know it. Women live it. But the point was that all women are in fear of getting assaulted.

So, can we work on the facts, and not on the myths perpetuated by rape culture? Hey, I'm ready to smash rape culture to bits and pieces, but I can't do it if I gotta explain that the culture hurts everybody involved. It's completely unfair that men are looked at with suspicion. It's also completely unfair that women have to live their lives in fear.

So, solution? Okay, tell women to watch their drinks. Tell women to take self-defense courses. Tell women to not wear ponytails, not to get too drunk at frat parties, to lock their doors right after getting home or getting in the car.

But if that narrative will continue to be exploited over and over again, then the culture needs to tell men not to act suspiciously, not to carry anything that can be looked like a weapon or a restraining device, not to approach any women walking alone at night for anything, don't offer to bring a drink to a woman, and on and on and on (you know the drill).

Basically, I'd see the blog post as sexist if the promptings toward women to be more careful at frat parties was seen as sexist too. I don't see it as sexist. I see it as perpetuating a culture that expects men to assault women.

Guess what....that's messed up all around.

Incapable of giving you more frubals. :bow: for continuing to engage.

Oh this is the part where we passive-aggressively talk about other people in the thread as if they can't read what we say (though we know they can) and strawman their beliefs.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Which is sexist. Just like perpetuating a culture that expects women to want sex if they wear revealing clothing is sexist.

Hmm, I don't know. Culture perpetuates the idea that women deserve to be raped - or at least are partially culpable in the crime - if they dress in revealing clothes. Culture also perpetuates the idea that men can't control themselves....which is horrible.

For this example, I'll give you the meta-analysis of a sexist culture is one that expects men to be naturally violent. The sexism that is present in that assumption is manifested in telling women how not to be raped by strangers, and it also not only tells men they are to be feared as a sign of respect, but that part of masculinity IS being aggressive.

Isn't rape culture a terrible terrible thing?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Incapable of giving you more frubals. :bow: for continuing to engage.

Do I get an "A" for effort?

Oh this is the part where we passive-aggressively talk about other people in the thread as if they can't read what we say (though we know they can) and strawman their beliefs.

I know. What's difficult in this debate is that the blog post points to a feminist talking point: how can our communities fight to decrease rape and sexual assault. Citing statistics bolsters the realities, but context is SO key (of course you knew that, as I'm not just talking to you right now ). Feminist talking points aren't taken well when the word "men" is brought up, and I find for those who are lurking to be helpful by continuing to remind whoever I'm talking with that I - as a feminist - am against patriarchal culture. I am not against men.

Back to the OP....more examples of what I see as everyday sexism by females:

- expecting the man to pay for everything on the first date - or any date, for that matter
- refusing to pick their baby sons up if they're crying, so as not to "wussify" them
- assuming all men live the "caveman" stereotype
- saying **** like "all men are pigs"
- saying more **** like "all men are cheaters" or "all men are liars"

 

[freethinker44]

Hmm, I don't know. Culture perpetuates the idea that women deserve to be raped - or at least are partially culpable in the crime - if they dress in revealing clothes. Culture also perpetuates the idea that men can't control themselves....which is horrible.

Oh that reminds me of another example of sexism I've experienced. I once attended a rape awareness/prevention seminar and it was a female presenter and the whole time she just kept reiterating how men are animals, her actual word used "animals", and it's just our instinct to have sex all the time. The whole thing was like this and her solution was for women to follow all the cliched rape prevention techniques, which included not dressing provocatively. But on a positive note, when she asked for questions at the end she was flooded with criticism, so there's still some good people out there.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Oh that reminds me of another example of sexism I've experienced. I once attended a rape awareness/prevention seminar and it was a female presenter and the whole time she just kept reiterating how men animals, her actual word used "animals", and it's just our instinct to have sex all the time. The whole thing was like this and her solution was for women to follow all the cliched rape prevention techniques, which included not dressing provocatively. But on a positive note, when she asked for questions at the end she was flooded with criticism, so there's still some good people out there.

Ugh...god that sucks. The seminar obviously did not vet her well. She had the potential to make things so much worse. The things she said were horrible and disgusting!

 

[Debater Slayer]

Which is sexist. Just like perpetuating a culture that expects women to want sex if they wear revealing clothing is sexist.

I don't think it's sexist to acknowledge statistical risks associated with certain things. I'm not sure about the status quo where you are, but women here are usually at a far greater risk of being sexually harassed or assaulted by touch than men are--and guess what? Most of the perpetrators are men. It's not sexist to acknowledge that many cultures place the blame on women when they get assaulted by men for "tempting" men's desires. It's not sexist to acknowledge that sexual harassment and assault against women is still an epidemic in many places, and again, most perpetrators (at least the ones that are reported) are men.

You don't want any woman to take safety measures due to the statistical risk that the random Joe she happens to walk past on the street is a sexual assaulter. Fine... I agree with you. But I don't think telling women not to take precautionary measures (which I view as completely reasonable in light of the statistical risk I mentioned) is the way to achieve that. Get rid of or at least reduce the prevalence of misogyny, self-entitlement, and justifications for sexual harassment and assault and then we can say that women don't need to take as many precautionary measures as they do now. Otherwise, I and many others will continue believing that taking such measures is completely justified--and the fact that they are justified is a sad reflection of what kind of societies we live in, not something to decry as "sexism" on women's part.

 

[freethinker44]

Citing statistics bolsters the realities

It would help if her statistics were correct though too.

She uses the statistic "if every rapist commits an average of ten rapes (a horrifying number, isn’t it?) then the concentration of rapists in the population is still a little over one in sixty"

But the 1 in 60 isn't true. Here's why. The CDC reports that only 13.8% of rapists are strangers. So that means that only 13.8% of that 1 in 60 men are those strangers that are possible rapists. That's 23 men out of 10,000, or less than a quarter of a percent of the male population in the US. That 1 in 60 was pulled out of thin air to show that even a small number is still great, but even if each male who raped women only committed one rape, which isn't the case, then that would mean slightly more than 1 in 5 men were rapists. Then take 13.8% of that and you get only 3% of the male population is that stranger who will rape you. So in reality, the fear of being raped by a strange man is not justified.

 

[freethinker44]

I don't think it's sexist to acknowledge statistical risks associated with certain things.

See post 52.

You don't want any woman to take safety measures due to the statistical risk that the random Joe she happens to walk past on the street is a sexual assaulter. Fine... I agree with you. But I don't think telling women not to take precautionary measures (which I view as completely reasonable in light of the statistical risk I mentioned) is the way to achieve that. Get rid of or at least reduce the prevalence of misogyny, self-entitlement, and justifications for sexual harassment and assault and then we can say that women don't need to take as many precautionary measures as they do now. Otherwise, I and many others will continue believing that taking such measures is completely justified--and the fact that they are justified is a sad reflection of what kind of societies we live in, not something to decry as "sexism" on women's part.

I'm not saying women shouldn't take precautionary measure, they should, and I argued that in the victim responsibility thread and got attacked for it. I'm saying that assuming all strange men are potential rapists is sexist and not grounded in reality.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Hmmm...I've been thinking about this more.

Phobias tend to manifest as extreme self-protective measures. People who are scared of flying aren't anti-pilots; they're just terrified they're going to die in a plane crash. People who have stage fright aren't anti-audience (they don't hate audience members or think less of them); they're terrified of being laughed at or rejected.

I'm sure you've read the quote by Margaret Atwood: "Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them." Both identify fears generally held by each gender about the level of threat from the other gender. So, logically speaking, if we are to charge that women being afraid of men is a sexist assumption that all men are rapists until proven otherwise, then within that same quote, we can equally charge that men being afraid of women is a sexist assumption that all women are cold and heartless until proven otherwise.

Sexism has prejudice PLUS power behind it. The example you gave with the female speaker leading a rape awareness conference is a good example of sexism because she is leading a group to follow stupid stereotypes. Rape phobia is coming from a position of powerlessness. So, women terrified of being raped and killed isn't stemming from a sexist position of power. It's a manifestation of rape culture that shames women and strips them of empowerment.

Does the fear of having boys serve in the Catholic Church a form of sexism, too? If the phobia stems from statistics showing men sexually assaulting boys in the church history?

No.

It's a manifestation of rape culture that shames victims and would rather protect perpetrators.

 

[freethinker44]

Hmmm...I've been thinking about this more.

Phobias tend to manifest as extreme self-protective measures. People who are scared of flying aren't anti-pilots; they're just terrified they're going to die in a plane crash. People who have stage fright aren't anti-audience (they don't hate audience members or think less of them); they're terrified of being laughed at or rejected.

I'm sure you've read the quote by Margaret Atwood: "Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them." Both identify fears generally held by each gender about the level of threat from the other gender. So, logically speaking, if we are to charge that women being afraid of men is a sexist assumption that all men are rapists until proven otherwise, then within that same quote, we can equally charge that men being afraid of women is a sexist assumption that all women are cold and heartless until proven otherwise.

Sexism has prejudice PLUS power behind it. The example you gave with the female speaker leading a rape awareness conference is a good example of sexism because she is leading a group to follow stupid stereotypes. Rape phobia is coming from a position of powerlessness. So, women terrified of being raped and killed isn't stemming from a sexist position of power. It's a manifestation of rape culture that shames women and strips them of empowerment.

Does the fear of having boys serve in the Catholic Church a form of sexism, too? If the phobia stems from statistics showing men sexually assaulting boys in the church history?

No.

It's a manifestation of rape culture that shames victims and would rather protect perpetrators.

Just because it's an irrational fear doesn't mean it isn't sexist. Relate it to race instead of gender and this point is obvious. Clutching your purse tighter because you are alone in an elevator with a black guy is also an irrational fear but no less racist. Same goes if you are clutching your can of mace because you are alone in an elevator with a man. It may be an irrational fear that causes this, but it's still sexist.

And I don't subscribe to the idea that sexism is prejudice PLUS power. That's just semantics. Not calling it sexism doesn't change the meaning. It's still gender prejudice.

 

[oldbadger]

Our grass is brown, it's so covered in pish! You mean the Britain that has a globally low level of social mobility, the Britain where the richest 5% own as much wealth as the poorest 55%, the Britain that has a monarchy, the Britain whose ruling elite went to a small number of private schools?

..................so, would I be correct in guessing that you won't be voting conservative at the next general election?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Just because it's an irrational fear doesn't mean it isn't sexist. Relate it to race instead of gender and this point is obvious. Clutching your purse tighter because you are alone in an elevator with a black guy is also an irrational fear but no less racist. Same goes if you are clutching your can of mace because you are alone in an elevator with a man. It may be an irrational fear that causes this, but it's still sexist.

Sexism by females? Specifically by females? The notion that males are more violent and more aggressive by nature is touted by men, too. Women are told they need to be careful by women and men.

And I don't subscribe to the idea that sexism is prejudice PLUS power. That's just semantics. Not calling it sexism doesn't change the meaning. It's still gender prejudice.

Ah, yeah. You and I disagree on this. C'est la vie.

 

[Riverwolf]

So women feeling threatened when approached by a stranger is sexist? Or is it only if they're threatened when approached by a man? Because I'm not seeing any claims that women never feel threatened when approached by a non-male stranger.

Bit off topic, but I, personally, feel somewhat threatened by all strangers.

However, even moreso by other men.

Is that sexist on my part? Sure. Can I just make it go away? Sadly, no. We don't really have control over our emotions in the short-term; re-association is a long-term project.

But there's a difference between feeling sexist emotions, and acting in line with them. One is sort of unavoidable; the other is more easily avoidable.

I'm not disagreeing with you, or the article (which I haven't read at this point); just making a comment about my own experience with strangers.

 

[Alceste]

I don't think it's sexist to acknowledge statistical risks associated with certain things. I'm not sure about the status quo where you are, but women here are usually at a far greater risk of being sexually harassed or assaulted by touch than men are--and guess what? Most of the perpetrators are men. It's not sexist to acknowledge that many cultures place the blame on women when they get assaulted by men for "tempting" men's desires. It's not sexist to acknowledge that sexual harassment and assault against women is still an epidemic in many places, and again, most perpetrators (at least the ones that are reported) are men.

You don't want any woman to take safety measures due to the statistical risk that the random Joe she happens to walk past on the street is a sexual assaulter. Fine... I agree with you. But I don't think telling women not to take precautionary measures (which I view as completely reasonable in light of the statistical risk I mentioned) is the way to achieve that. Get rid of or at least reduce the prevalence of misogyny, self-entitlement, and justifications for sexual harassment and assault and then we can say that women don't need to take as many precautionary measures as they do now. Otherwise, I and many others will continue believing that taking such measures is completely justified--and the fact that they are justified is a sad reflection of what kind of societies we live in, not something to decry as "sexism" on women's part.

When I was traveling alone, me and the other young women I talked to included the prevalence of sexual harassment in pretty much any discussion of places they'd been. Multiple reports of sexual harassment was the entire reason I didn't go to the south of Italy. I don't think avoiding that whole region was bigoted, and I don't think all southern Italian men are rapists. I just avoided that place because I didn't want to have a bad time.

When I went to Morocco, I went with a group of men, and rarely left the hotel room alone. This is because there were stories of corruption and abduction. I experienced an uncomfortable amount of staring (a particular type of staring - kind of blank but filled with menace) even leaving them to go to the bathroom on the train.

Again, I don't think all North African men are rapists, but I the likelihood of me having a bad time alone in Morocco was very, very high.

So I took steps to avoid bad times. I don't give a fiddler's fart if some perfectly nice North African or Italian man gets his feelings hurt and takes it personally that I didn't feel safe from sexual assault in his country. My top priority was my own safety.

Articles like this one simply explain what it's like to have to regularly account for the probability of sexual harassment or assault in your day to day decisions. I don't look at every stranger as a potential threat, but I do look for red flags that might signal a lack of respect for my boundaries every time a man approaches me "cold" to flirt or proposition me.

Thinks...

OK, I DID do that, way back when such things actually happened.

I don't think it's sexist to be cautious / reserved around strangers. I have gotten creepy vibes from both men and women in the past, and am equally likely to reject the advances of a creepy woman as a creepy man. It's true that I've met way more creepy men, but that's just the stats of the thing - there's a lot more hetero men on this planet than lesbians, and if someone is hitting on me they're gonna be one or the other.

 

[Riverwolf]

Back to the OP....more examples of what I see as everyday sexism by females:

- expecting the man to pay for everything on the first date - or any date, for that matter

I don't have a job; Moonwater does. She has to pay for most of our dates.

- refusing to pick their baby sons up if they're crying, so as not to "wussify" them

!!! That's HORRIBLE!

- assuming all men live the "caveman" stereotype

To be fair, I've engaged in that one many times in the past, and ripples of it still echo through my psyche.

- saying **** like "all men are pigs"
- saying more **** like "all men are cheaters" or "all men are liars"

I've actually never heard those in real life, only from strawman feminist portrayals. But they are contributing to the problem by reinforcing the very things they hate, by regarding them as biological facts universal to everyone with a penis, rather than things which our culture encourages in men but can be helped through education and communication.