I apologize for the misunderstanding then; reading it again, I believe my fault lies in reading "Such as, if the woman" and taking it(as it can be used) as exclusionary.
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Everyday Sexism by Females
- Thread starter Secret Chief
- Start date
Alceste
Vagabond
I feel that consent and non-consent are both completely valid while drunk. Granted, past a certain point of drunkenness, with the mumbling, stumbling, puking and passing out, we should not make any effort to sexually pursue anybody who is in that state. That would be pretty rapey, IMO.
But just drunk? I know what I want and don't want and am able to communicate it when I'm drunk, even VERY drunk. I have not gotten "black out" drunk since my teens. From what I've heard from the men I've dated, it seems I actually get harder to screw (less interested in sex and more militant about policing my boundaries) the drunker I get, not the other way around.
Everybody's different, though, so my experience doesn't mean much. Usually when it comes to drunk sex, both participants are drunk. So if we call it rape, how can we ever establish who is raping whom?
I agree with this. I can't frubal you yet, though.
Secret Chief
Veteran Member
Ok, so am I labouring under a misapprehension of feminism? Is it not about being treated equally? eg in terms of the same salary for the same job? Not generalising to all members of one gender on the basis of the behaviour of an individual?
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Secret Chief
Veteran Member
@Oldbadger.
Midlands yes. Also lived in London, Manchester and Norwich. Maybe there's regional differences but I personally haven't seen it. What surprises me is the attitude I see is if anything even more pronounced in younger women.
Midlands yes. Also lived in London, Manchester and Norwich. Maybe there's regional differences but I personally haven't seen it. What surprises me is the attitude I see is if anything even more pronounced in younger women.
Secret Chief
Veteran Member
duplicate post
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Secret Chief
Veteran Member
I would think that the OP falls under the definition of feminism taken from Wikipedia -
"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women."
Equal social rights for women cannot exist in isolation; it is in comparison with men.
"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women."
Equal social rights for women cannot exist in isolation; it is in comparison with men.
Alceste
Vagabond
Yes, it is a fundamentally egalitarian philosophy, which is why I am skeptical that the women in your office who make statements that imply that women are superior actually identify as feminists, or draw their opinions about women having to train men to shut drawers from feminist theory.
Alceste
Vagabond
Yes, we seek to be represented in cultural, economic and political spheres in roughly equal numbers to men, and we wish to enjoy the full spectrum of rights, privileges and freedoms enjoyed by men. We don't seek EXTRA rights or representation ABOVE that of men, and generally don't think women are superior.
Speaking for myself, what I would prefer is a gender-blind, colour-blind culture, where one's station and potential in life is impacted by merit and effort, not the shape of their genitals or the colour of their skin. That's a popular branch of feminism and a sentiment common among feminists.
That the job of women is to try to train men in domestic tasks, or that men are inferior, isn't a common sentiment among feminists, as you might discover if you browse the threads in our DIR.
Alceste
Vagabond
Sexism by my mum is quite common in my house
My grandmother has very stern notions regarding the relationship between one's allotment of genitals and the sorts of tasks they can be trusted with around the house.
When my husband and I lived with her, it drove her absolutely bonkers to see me mowing the lawn and my husband cooking her meals. Were each fell to the tasks we enjoyed most and were best at, but she was beyond agitated about the whole thing. She also can't process the fact that I'm the primary breadwinner in this relationship - an arrangement that allows both of us to do work that we love even though his work as an indie developer has not paid off yet.
While her disapproval of our unconventional roles was stressful for us, she feels great pride about her own mastery of "women's work" - cooking, cleaning, gardening, and great appreciation for her husband's mastery of "men's work" like carpentry and plumbing when he was alive.
Personally, I think that in order to feel proud of yourself for scrubbing toilets while your husband builds and repairs things, you need to be convinced he would never in a million years be able to figure out how to scrub a toilet, and that without you his toilet would go unscrubbed for all eternity.
Feminism is absolutely about equality and being treated equally. Are these casually sexist comments being made by self-identified feminists?
Alceste
Vagabond
Exactly my thoughts. This conversation sounds like the sort of thing you'd hear among the conservative old ladies at grandma's bridge club. Not in a feminist group or essay.
Maybe the link with feminism is that women can now have the same inane, sexist discussions around the water cooler at work that they've been having since forever at quilting bees and bake sales, giving the men they work with opportunities to overhear that they would not have had when the sexes were more segregated.
Secret Chief
Veteran Member
I couldn't say if they self identify as feminists. I may ask them.
They are not old (30s and 40s) and not unusual in their attitudes in my experience. If they do not identify as feminists am I to conclude feminists are a rarity in the UK? These us and them sexist attitudes are quite common, it seems to me. The difference between men and women seems to be women are more comfortable espousing such sexism in mixed, public company. Men can of course be as sexist, but have possibly learned to keep it under wraps.
They are not old (30s and 40s) and not unusual in their attitudes in my experience. If they do not identify as feminists am I to conclude feminists are a rarity in the UK? These us and them sexist attitudes are quite common, it seems to me. The difference between men and women seems to be women are more comfortable espousing such sexism in mixed, public company. Men can of course be as sexist, but have possibly learned to keep it under wraps.
Alceste
Vagabond
Feminists are a rarity everywhere. It's a progressive philosophy. The majority of people are not very progressive. That's why there is so little progress.
Secret Chief
Veteran Member
Feminists are a rarity everywhere. It's a progressive philosophy. The majority of people are not very progressive. That's why there is so little progress.
Perhaps I shall try to raise their consciousness
Alceste
Vagabond
Perhaps I shall try to raise their consciousness
Go for it. I often call out sexism when I hear it, especially if it's persistent enough to irritate me. You'd be doing them a favour, IMO.
A lot of that could be a side effect of the feminist movement, but it's absolutely not in line with the movement's core values.
I can't speak for the state of feminism in the UK, since it's not my focus.
To be honest, this sort of thing isn't really enough information to make any conclusions about feminism as a whole in the UK, even if these two individuals self-identify as feminists.
Alceste
Vagabond
I think some people tend to point the finger at "feminism" for anything a woman says that they don't like.