Everyday Sexism by Females

[Riverwolf]

Oh that reminds me of another example of sexism I've experienced. I once attended a rape awareness/prevention seminar and it was a female presenter and the whole time she just kept reiterating how men are animals, her actual word used "animals", and it's just our instinct to have sex all the time. The whole thing was like this and her solution was for women to follow all the cliched rape prevention techniques, which included not dressing provocatively. But on a positive note, when she asked for questions at the end she was flooded with criticism, so there's still some good people out there.

Ugh...god that sucks. The seminar obviously did not vet her well. She had the potential to make things so much worse. The things she said were horrible and disgusting!

Agreed! It's so not true!

I'm a man, but I don't want to have sex all the time!

Heh. I'm reminded of a joke one of my high school math teachers once said (and, for the record, this was a joke). All teenage men care about only three things: food, sex, and sports. I hate food, I hate sports, and sex is great and all, but hardly the only thing in my life... and at the time, as a teenager, I wasn't particularly interested in sex at all.

 

[Riverwolf]

So in reality, the fear of being raped by a strange man is not justified.

Fears rarely are. But fear is also the strongest emotion we can feel. We can't just make it go away.

I'm an arachnophobic. Particularly of daddy-long leg spiders: completely, 100% harmless. They terrify me, right to my core.

 

[Riverwolf]

Sexism by females? Specifically by females? The notion that males are more violent and more aggressive by nature is touted by men, too. Women are told they need to be careful by women and men.

Heck, we're encouraged to be so by other men.

Screw that noise, I say.

Ah, yeah. You and I disagree on this. C'est la vie.

Watashi ga watashi de iru kagigi... c'est la vie... anata wo ... sorry. ^_^

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The notion that males are more violent and more aggressive by nature

Oh, testosterone.

 

[Riverwolf]

If one negative emotion triggered by one gender but not another is sexist, does that mean that all instances of emotions being triggered by one gender but not another are sexism in action?

That is, if a fear of men but not women is sexist, then is sexual attraction to men but not women sexist?

 

[Alceste]

Every day.

I don't see it as a Men's Issue. I don't see it as a Feminism issue. I see it as a person issue, a society issue.

I am a male in the UK; my perception is not a day goes by without me hearing casual sexist comments invariably from females. I don't find such attitudes acceptable from anyone, but if such stuff was opined by males in mixed company they would get shot down. Why is it acceptable to come from the mouths of females?

I didn't get the sense of casual sexism in the UK when I lived there. Never heard any comments of the sort you're describing, except maybe as a joke. One example I can think of is "man flu", which is basically the normal flu, but with a lot more melodrama.

But on the other hand, I also heard stereotype based comments about women. The whole "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" thing where men throw up their hands and go "Women!" and women do the exact opposite doesn't really bother me, I guess you could say.

What bothered me was being blacklisted and refused the right to work by the all male union in my chosen career for "being a tease". Now, fifteen years later, it kind of bothers me that some of the guys in that department want to hire me specifically because I'm a woman. I'm not gonna turn down the work, obviously, but I'd rather the whole operation was gender-blind and merit-based.

The amount I care about casual, everyday sexism is proportional to the real world consequences of it. Comments around the water cooler about how men can't be trained to shut drawers or whatever are maybe a little annoying, just as it was annoying for my male coworker to refer to conversations I had with my female coworkers as "gabbing" or "gossiping", but such comments have very little real world impact on anything or anyone. They're just not worth the effort of taking offense.

 

[Riverwolf]

I didn't get the sense of casual sexism in the UK when I lived there. Never heard any comments of the sort you're describing, except maybe as a joke. One example I can think of is "man flu", which is basically the normal flu, but with a lot more melodrama.

But on the other hand, I also heard stereotype based comments about women. The whole "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" thing where men throw up their hands and go "Women!" and women do the exact opposite doesn't really bother me, I guess you could say.

What bothered me was being blacklisted and refused the right to work by the all male union in my chosen career for "being a tease". Now, fifteen years later, it kind of bothers me that some of the guys in that department want to hire me specifically because I'm a woman. I'm not gonna turn down the work, obviously, but I'd rather the whole operation was gender-blind and merit-based.

The amount I care about casual, everyday sexism is proportional to the real world consequences of it. Comments around the water cooler about how men can't be trained to shut drawers or whatever are maybe a little annoying, just as it was annoying for my male coworker to refer to conversations I had with my female coworkers as "gabbing" or "gossiping", but such comments have very little real world impact on anything or anyone. They're just not worth the effort of taking offense.

I disagree. Casual comments spoken in jest may not be all that bad, but casual comments spoken with a degree of seriousness are indicative of the much bigger problems.

In other words, the comments may not have any immediate impact themselves, but unless they're spoken of in jest, and even then the person being spoken to should clearly be in on the joke and recognizing it as such, they perpetuate the myths and stereotypes which do cause the bigger problems. So I do think it's worth taking offense to them and calling them out when observed.

As an analogy, my area is currently in a pretty bad drought. It's not an immediate problem if I choose to ignore that and use as much water as I darn well please, but that would be an indication of a bigger problem: disconnect with the bigger picture. If that disconnect were widespread enough throughout this city, the reservoir could drain completely and the entire city would be without water for quite a while.

 

[Alceste]

If one negative emotion triggered by one gender but not another is sexist, does that mean that all instances of emotions being triggered by one gender but not another are sexism in action?

That is, if a fear of men but not women is sexist, then is sexual attraction to men but not women sexist?

Yeah, I have real trouble framing whatever precautions women take to avoid sexual harassment and assault as "sexism".

I think the observation that a woman can't know whether or not any new male acquaintance is a threat (a very benign observation) is being confused with a claim that every male has the potential to rape. Even that article FT posted starts out by saying the presumably male reader is a perfect gentleman who would never rape anyone in a million years, as are most men.

But the question that follows is, how do you convey the already established fact that you are not a threat to the women you meet, who may initially view you (wrongly) as a potential threat?

Seems like pretty good advice, too. Being conscious of other people's body language is basically how we all get laid, male or female.

I guess I don't see what is offensive about it, unless you are male and want to be able to impose your company on a woman whose body language is clearly telling you she wants to be left alone, but you don't want her to feel like that's a little rapey.

Tough titties. That is a little rapey. There are legitimate reasons a person might not pick up on those cues, like Aspergers or whatever, but to impose your company on someone you know is not welcoming it is gonna fly a big red rapey flag over your head. That's just how it is.

 

[Alceste]

I disagree. Casual comments spoken in jest may not be all that bad, but casual comments spoken with a degree of seriousness are indicative of the much bigger problems.

In other words, the comments may not have any immediate impact themselves, but unless they're spoken of in jest, and even then the person being spoken to should clearly be in on the joke and recognizing it as such, they perpetuate the myths and stereotypes which do cause the bigger problems. So I do think it's worth taking offense to them and calling them out when observed.

As an analogy, my area is currently in a pretty bad drought. It's not an immediate problem if I choose to ignore that and use as much water as I darn well please, but that would be an indication of a bigger problem: disconnect with the bigger picture. If that disconnect were widespread enough throughout this city, the reservoir could drain completely and the entire city would be without water for quite a while.

Yeah, true. Sexism is generally worth calling out, whatever the context, but it would be exhausting to call it out all the time, in every instance, since it's everywhere. For me, I've got to prioritize, and I personally draw the "don't care" line roughly where the sexism in question has no repercussions beyond making someone feel a little awkward for a minute or two. Remember, this is coming from a person who personally lost 14 years of earnings between $20-$30,000 per year because of sexism.

 

[Riverwolf]

Yeah, I have real trouble framing whatever precautions women take to avoid sexual harassment and assault as "sexism".

I think the observation that a woman can't know whether or not any new male acquaintance is a threat (a very benign observation) is being confused with a claim that every male has the potential to rape. Even that article FT posted starts out by saying the presumably male reader is a perfect gentleman who would never rape anyone in a million years, as are most men.

At least not knowingly.

One insight I've come to recently is that, because we're not taught how not to rape, many instances of rape aren't realized to be.

Such as if the woman is any more than slightly buzzed and so is unable to give consent(having sex with a drunk woman who's saying "yes" is rape), is apparently giving "acting" consent (continuing to make out, etc.) without the very much needed verbal "yes" to the explicit question "wanna have sex", initial resistance giving way to full participation, etc. The most I ever saw was a poster on one of the high school English teacher's: "Unless she says yes, it's rape." Wasn't even my own English teacher; I just went into her classroom now and then.

IOW, if a rape charge is sought, and the perpetrator pleads innocent, there's a good chance he or she fully believes him/herself to be innocent.

But the question that follows is, how do you convey the already established fact that you are not a threat to the women you meet, who may initially view you (wrongly) as a potential threat?

Seems like pretty good advice, too. Being conscious of other people's body language is basically how we all get laid, male or female.

I guess I don't see what is offensive about it, unless you are male and want to be able to impose your company on a woman whose body language is clearly telling you she wants to be left alone, but you don't want her to feel like that's a little rapey.

Tough titties. That is a little rapey. There are legitimate reasons a person might not pick up on those cues, like Aspergers or whatever, but to impose your company on someone you know is not welcoming it is gonna fly a big red rapey flag over your head. That's just how it is.

Yup, whether fair or not. And even speaking as a person with Asperger's, some social cues can be learned, even if we never picked up on them early in life. (Never could get the hang of sarcasm, though.)

And as far as I'm concerned, if we're going to solve this problem, everyone needs to take steps to help. If we're not willing to make the extra effort to reassure women that they can feel safe around us, and just assume that they can do all the work entirely on their own to keep themselves safe and feeling safe, that just leaves them, well, alone. Not good at all for building trust.

Women generally feel safe around other women. Men generally feel safe around everyone. There's no reason why we all shouldn't take measures to help women feel safe around everyone, as well.

Yeah, true. Sexism is generally worth calling out, whatever the context, but it would be exhausting to call it out all the time, in every instance, since it's everywhere. For me, I've got to prioritize, and I personally draw the "don't care" line roughly where the sexism in question has no repercussions beyond making someone feel a little awkward for a minute or two. Remember, this is coming from a person who personally lost 14 years of earnings between $20-$30,000 per year because of sexism.

Fair enough. ^_^

 

[Alceste]

At least not knowingly.

One insight I've come to recently is that, because we're not taught how not to rape, many instances of rape aren't realized to be.

Such as if the woman is any more than slightly buzzed and so is unable to give consent(having sex with a drunk woman who's saying "yes" is rape), is apparently giving "acting" consent (continuing to make out, etc.) without the very much needed verbal "yes" to the explicit question "wanna have sex", initial resistance giving way to full participation, etc. The most I ever saw was a poster on one of the high school English teacher's: "Unless she says yes, it's rape." Wasn't even my own English teacher; I just went into her classroom now and then.

IOW, if a rape charge is sought, and the perpetrator pleads innocent, there's a good chance he or she fully believes him/herself to be innocent.

Yup, whether fair or not. And even speaking as a person with Asperger's, some social cues can be learned, even if we never picked up on them early in life. (Never could get the hang of sarcasm, though.)

And as far as I'm concerned, if we're going to solve this problem, everyone needs to take steps to help. If we're not willing to make the extra effort to reassure women that they can feel safe around us, and just assume that they can do all the work entirely on their own to keep themselves safe and feeling safe, that just leaves them, well, alone. Not good at all for building trust.

Women generally feel safe around other women. Men generally feel safe around everyone. There's no reason why we all shouldn't take measures to help women feel safe around everyone, as well.



Fair enough. ^_^

Yeah, I don't subscribe to the idea that drunk people can't consent to sex. If so, then I'm a rapist myself, and a rape victim, a hundred times over.

I also don't subscribe to the idea that men always feel safe. My husband, for example, grew up in a fairly violent town, and has needed to assess other men and women he's met as a potential threat. He's a pretty big guy, though, and hasn't had cause to feel that way as often as smaller guys or women might have.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yeah, I don't subscribe to the idea that drunk people can't consent to sex.

Same. Drinking makes me horny and I'm well-aware of what I'm doing.

 

[Secret Chief]

Yeah, true. Sexism is generally worth calling out, whatever the context, but it would be exhausting to call it out all the time, in every instance, since it's everywhere. For me, I've got to prioritize, and I personally draw the "don't care" line roughly where the sexism in question has no repercussions beyond making someone feel a little awkward for a minute or two. Remember, this is coming from a person who personally lost 14 years of earnings between $20-$30,000 per year because of sexism.

I'm glad you didn't experience it when you were in the UK. My experience is of course somewhat different. The casual sexism doesn't greatly offend or outrage me, in itself it is no big deal, but I do think it reflects what to me seems a rather jaundiced view of men by a considerable proportion of women. The attititude is basically a blanket "men are inferior" expressed through daily anecdotes. Any bad behaviour by a man indicates the truth in the negative stereotype (apparently). It's a sort of globalised confirmation bias. As I intimated I'd hoped feminism would lead to equality in this respect, not a swapping of the superiority attitude between the genders.

 

[Riverwolf]

Yeah, I don't subscribe to the idea that drunk people can't consent to sex. If so, then I'm a rapist myself, and a rape victim, a hundred times over.

It's definitely a gray area, and I would say that generally the deciding factor is the question: "Would consent be given if sober?" That is, will this person, upon sobering up, be ashamed of what just happened?

It's generally a party/casual caution, I think.

I also don't subscribe to the idea that men always feel safe. My husband, for example, grew up in a fairly violent town, and has needed to assess other men and women he's met as a potential threat. He's a pretty big guy, though, and hasn't had cause to feel that way as often as smaller guys or women might have.

I was speaking in terms of gender, though perhaps I should have been clearer.

 

[Riverwolf]

I'm glad you didn't experience it when you were in the UK. My experience is of course somewhat different. The casual sexism doesn't greatly offend or outrage me, in itself it is no big deal, but I do think it reflects what to me seems a rather jaundiced view of men by a considerable proportion of women. The attititude is basically a blanket "men are inferior" expressed through daily anecdotes. Any bad behaviour by a man indicates the truth in the negative stereotype (apparently). It's a sort of globalised confirmation bias. As I intimated I'd hoped feminism would lead to equality in this respect, not a swapping of the superiority attitude between the genders.

Feminism is a highly misunderstood movement, even by people who identify with it.

 

[oldbadger]

Any bad behaviour by a man indicates the truth in the negative stereotype (apparently). It's a sort of globalised confirmation bias. As I intimated I'd hoped feminism would lead to equality in this respect, not a swapping of the superiority attitude between the genders.

....well, men behaving badly isn't exactly going to push their gender's reputation skywards, is it? Let's take a typical example of what a group of women (drivers) could.... just might, say about young men drivers...... for instance

They might say something like, 'Did you know that a massively high % of recently qualified drivers who lose their licences on the '6 points and you're out' scheme are male? And as the group agrees how totally pr*ttish many young male drivers can be, one of the group points out that insurance companies are no longer allowed to calculate young female driver's lower accident/conviction/claims record when calculating premiums, because the European Union has decided that women drivers will pay the same rate as male drivers, thus hiking their premiums up by unbelievable %s......... What...... that sort of thing?

This happened last year........... and this is the European idea of equality, fgs.
That's just one example out of many. And women have bitten the bullet and just get on with it, because that's all they can do. The big part of living in an egalitarian society (which we're supposed to be) is keeping our standards up, our actions up, our efforts up........ and the best thing we men can do when we hear general criticism about our gender is to listen..... remember...... and do our bit to bring up our standards.

And when women make fun of men........ laugh it off...... because at the moment... we bloody deserve it. I think our women are absolutely great. They don't moan about their lot, they don't tend to hold radically feminist views, and they seem to be very 'gender balanced', but that's in the South East.... I get the impression that you are in the Midlands (?)

 

[Alceste]

I'm glad you didn't experience it when you were in the UK. My experience is of course somewhat different. The casual sexism doesn't greatly offend or outrage me, in itself it is no big deal, but I do think it reflects what to me seems a rather jaundiced view of men by a considerable proportion of women. The attititude is basically a blanket "men are inferior" expressed through daily anecdotes. Any bad behaviour by a man indicates the truth in the negative stereotype (apparently). It's a sort of globalised confirmation bias. As I intimated I'd hoped feminism would lead to equality in this respect, not a swapping of the superiority attitude between the genders.

I'm not sure I understand what feminism has to do with the comments you are describing. IME, I don't think any of the women I know who bang on about how their husbands can't clean up a mess or shut a cupboard door because they're men actually identify as feminists.

Also, women have been banging on about how incompetent men are at stuff like housework and child rearing since the dawn of time. IOW, since long before feminism.

One historical example I can think of that reminds me of the comments around the water cooler you mentioned is colonial bride ships. By about 1860, the population of certain parts of the British empire was almost entirely male. The powers that be were concerned about sky high rates of drinking, gambling, prostitution and general moral degradation in those parts. The solution they came up with was to ship some boat loads of single women over to marry these guys and whip them into shape. IOW, to "train" them.

So, to me it seems that the idea that the role of women is to "train" their male partners to act responsibly (whether that means staying out of whore houses or shutting the drawers around the house) is an old one, and not an idea that stems from feminist theory.

That said, my own husband doesn't shut cupboards and drawers. I don't get it. Just saying. It takes like one second, and helps avoid bashing your head or your legs on crap that's sticking out that shouldn't be. I sympathize with your boss. But I don't think it's a man thing. I've lived with women who have bizarre habits as well.

 

[Nymphs]

Yeah, I don't subscribe to the idea that drunk people can't consent to sex.

Could you elaborate on that? And how do you feel about non-consent when someone is drunk (i.e. assault/rape)?

 

[Mister Emu]

Such as if the woman is any more than slightly buzzed and so is unable to give consent(having sex with a drunk woman who's saying "yes" is rape),

Why only a woman is more than slightly buzzed? Why is only have sex with a drunk woman who's saying "yes" rape?

 

[Riverwolf]

Why only a woman is more than slightly buzzed?

After that, judgment can be impaired, and we can be made to do things we ordinarily would strongly object to.

But as Alceste pointed out(...rather, got me to point out), it can be a gray area.

Why is only have sex with a drunk woman who's saying "yes" rape?

I didn't say "only"; I said "such as".