Everyone, whether they choose to admit it or not is religious.

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Now the argument changes to everything being a belief, which is more plausible than everyone being religious about something.

What do you think makes up religions?

 

[Paroxys]

If you want me to show you white swans, I can show you white swans. They are everywhere. That is evidence enough for me. you however need to show 1 black swan which you have yet to do. It could take an eternity to find one black swan and that is something just not worth my time. So long as every swan everyone sees is white I am right. I am not going to go on your wild goose chase.

I'm sorry, are you just deluded? Or are you just an idiot? At the very least I can say you're an illogical hypocrite.

Anyway, I like how you continuously try to shirk your way out of answering any my arguments.

But to address this anyway. You claim that "So long as every swan everyone sees is white I am right." You again, like many of your preceding arguments trap yourself.
The problem is, not everyone sees every swan as "white" as evidenced by the sheer number of people who either responded "you're wrong" or provided a different definition than you.
Hence you're not right. Since not every swan everyone sees is white.

Beyond this, you don't address the "points" (I refuse to call them black swans, complete misuse of the term) I brought up in my last post.
1. Other people's definitions. Many of which you don't address at all. Either that, or you fail to specify why your definition is better.
2. The numerous people that I named. Each of them are still "someone," but don't have a system of beliefs that guides their life.
3. You don't even address the problem with your grammar, meaning since your definition makes no sense. It can't be true.

Add this to the list of stuff that you haven't addressed.
-Why should we defer to your definitions?
-By what standards is your definition better than the others?
-Why are those standards "good" standards?
-Your unsupported claim of equivalency.
-Your non-responsiveness to the counter-examples I provided against your claim to equivalency.
-Your Catch-22 predicament. That is you fail to specify any reason at all why must I disprove you. In fact, based on your rhetoric, it's your job to disprove me. You yourself stated: "Right until proven wrong." Meaning my thesis is right until you can prove me wrong.

But I'm probably going to stop posting in this thread, or at the very least, I'll stop addressing you until you actually start responding to my contentions (which I'm guessing won't happen). Arguing with you feels like arguing with a child. Enjoy Never Never Land.

Edit: On second thought, comparing you to a child gives children a bad name. At least they'll try to answer my questions instead of purposefully avoiding them.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

If no one has a better definiton out there than mine, then obviously mine is the best one. Something is better than nothing.

 

[javajo]

I don't believe in religion. I believe in a relationship with Jesus. Religion, as I have observed much of it, seems to be man's efforts to achieve salvation by his own merit. I believe salvation is received from Jesus, not achieved by man.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

I don't believe in religion. I believe in a relationship with Jesus. Religion, as I have observed much of it, seems to be man's efforts to achieve salvation by his own merit. I believe salvation is received from Jesus, not achieved by man.

So your belief in Jesus is not a system of beliefs that you use to guide your life?

 

[waitasec]

What do you think makes up religions?

define religion/religious...
we have been around the merry go round and have pointed out to you that religion has different meanings...

are you still hung up on being hung up on?

 

[javajo]

So your belief in Jesus is not a system of beliefs that you use to guide your life?

Right. My belief in Jesus is a personal relationship, not a system of beliefs. I don't believe systems of belief save anyone, only Jesus saves. To believe in, that is trust in or rely on Jesus is to trust in a real person (a God-person) to have paid for my sins for real and freely forgiven me and given me eternal life for real. I believe a person can have a system of beliefs and creeds and religious works and traditions and ceremonies and observe different sacraments or belong to a specific church and can have all kinds of prayers and bow toward some town or place and do all kinds of religious mumbo-jumbo and reform or punish themselves or walk on their knees to a religious site and everything else, but if they have not trusted in the only one who can save them, the only one who paid for their sins, the Lord Jesus Christ, they are lost. Thank God we don't have to be religious or attain salvation through some self effort, but that we may receive salvation freely from Jesus Christ. That is my personal belief...in a personal Saviour.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

define religion/religious...
we have been around the merry go round and have pointed out to you that religion has different meanings...

are you still hung up on being hung up on?

Yeah, and according to the definitions that I use, everyone is religious.

 

[McBell]

If no one has a better definiton out there than mine, then obviously mine is the best one. Something is better than nothing.

There have been several definitions given in this thread.
One of the biggest problems you face is that your preferred definition doesn't even say what you claim it says.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Right. My belief in Jesus is a personal relationship, not a system of beliefs. I don't believe systems of belief save anyone, only Jesus saves. To believe in, that is trust in or rely on Jesus is to trust in a real person (a God-person) to have paid for my sins for real and freely forgiven me and given me eternal life for real. I believe a person can have a system of beliefs and creeds and religious works and traditions and ceremonies and observe different sacraments or belong to a specific church and can have all kinds of prayers and bow toward some town or place and do all kinds of religious mumbo-jumbo and reform or punish themselves or walk on their knees to a religious site and everything else, but if they have not trusted in the only one who can save them, the only one who paid for their sins, the Lord Jesus Christ, they are lost. Thank God we don't have to be religious or attain salvation through some self effort, but that we may receive salvation freely from Jesus Christ. That is my personal belief...in a personal Saviour.

It sounds to me like you have quite a few beliefs, which form a system, which is a religion.

 

[javajo]

It sounds to me like you have quite a few beliefs, which form a system, which is a religion.

Well then, I guess its okay to have a religion, just as long as you're not too religious. My point is that I believe religion does not save, only Jesus saves:

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1Jn 4:11-12

 

[Orias]

Right. My belief in Jesus is a personal relationship,

To have a personal relationship with someone, doesn't that mean they have to be in person?

Unless you have personalized him to your image.

I don't believe systems of belief save anyone, only Jesus saves.

Ha, Jesus never created any forms of systematic ritual or symbol?

To believe in, that is trust in or rely on Jesus is to trust in a real person (a God-person) to have paid for my sins for real and freely forgiven me and given me eternal life for real.

For real?

I believe a person can have a system of beliefs and creeds and religious works and traditions and ceremonies and observe different sacraments or belong to a specific church and can have all kinds of prayers and bow toward some town or place and do all kinds of religious mumbo-jumbo and reform or punish themselves or walk on their knees to a religious site and everything else, but if they have not trusted in the only one who can save them, the only one who paid for their sins, the Lord Jesus Christ, they are lost. Thank God we don't have to be religious or attain salvation through some self effort, but that we may receive salvation freely from Jesus Christ. That is my personal belief...in a personal Saviour.

And perfectly obvious personal and unmovable belief, thanks.

Part of man's ability in existence is to change, and Jesus has used this as a tactic against other people, but those who take these sorts of things literally miss the real teaching of what he has offered.

 

[javajo]

To have a personal relationship with someone, doesn't that mean they have to be in person?

The Bible says Christ is in me and I in Him, so I take him at his word.

Unless you have personalized him to your image.

God forbid.

Ha, Jesus never created any forms of systematic ritual or symbol?

Just two, communion and baptism. I won't tell anyone if you won't.

For real?

Fo' shizzle!

And perfectly obvious personal and unmovable belief, thanks.

Your welcome, it is my belief, glad to share.

Part of man's ability in existence is to change, and Jesus has used this as a tactic against other people, but those who take these sorts of things literally miss the real teaching of what he has offered.

Okay, then.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Well then, I guess its okay to have a religion, just as long as you're not too religious. My point is that I believe religion does not save, only Jesus saves:

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1Jn 4:11-12

That is all fine and dandy, but it has nothing to do with the statement "Everyone is religious"

 

[javajo]

That is all fine and dandy, but it has nothing to do with the statement "Everyone is religious"

Have I gotten off topic? Sorry! I just don't consider myself to be religious. I know there are many people who love being religious and doing all kinds of religious things and wearing robes and performing all kinds of ceremonies and what not. Its not my cup of tea. And I want to stress the point that (I believe) all the religious things we do to try to save or help save ourselves don't amount to a hill of beans for salvation. Salvation is freely received, not meritoriously achieved, so Christ gets all the glory. That's just my belief. I'll let y'all get back to being religious now.

 

[Meow Mix]

Must a system of beliefs have faith to be a religion?
I don't think so. Check his out

Believe - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

"Believe: to accept something as true, genuine, or real <ideals we believe in> <believes in ghosts>

: to have a firm conviction as to the goodness, efficacy, or ability of something <believe in exercise>

: to hold an opinion : think <I believe so>
transitive verb

: to consider to be true or honest <believe the reports> <you wouldn't believe how long it took>

: to accept the word or evidence of <I believe you> <couldn't believe my ears>

: to hold as an opinion : suppose <I believe it will rain soon>"

In all of these definitions I do not see the word faith anywhere.

There are different contexts of the word "believe," too -- there are justified beliefs and unjustified beliefs.

The crux of the issue here is that a religion incorporates unjustified ontological beliefs whereas other worldviews don't.

Secular humanism is a worldview, for instance. Not all atheists are secular humanists and not all humanists are secular, but let's talk specifically about secular humanism. In itself, it's a life stance that happens to be non-religious. Please take the time to read the wiki article I linked to because it explains why not all life stances aren't religions very well.

Please also read this wiki article about non-theistic religion. If you'll notice, the hallmark of a religious life stance as opposed to a non-religious life stance is to hold unjustified ontological beliefs.

Since secular humanism doesn't necessarily incorporate unjustified ontological beliefs, it is non-religious even though it is a life stance. I'm an atheist but not necessarily a secular humanist (I do agree with 99% of their stances, though), and I do not hold any religious beliefs. I am not religious. Your blanket term is incorrect.

In any case, my point is just that I no longer believe that you're intentionally equivocating: I think you genuinely weren't aware of some of these distinctions, or considered the difference between justified beliefs and unjustified beliefs. The only reason I've responded to this thread at all was to just point these things out. I'm no longer interested in this thread, so if you feel that you have a major point to make please send me a PM or post it on my profile because I doubt I'll be returning to this specific thread.

EDIT:

Sorry for the horrendous grammar, I'm running on 2 hours of sleep and I have a splitting headache... and work is grinding me into the ground right now. Ugh

 

[blackout]

I once started a thread "What qualifies Religion?".

There was little agreement,
and no concluding concensus.

I found that very interesting.

This is a Religious Education forum,
and there is no answer here regarding
the fundamental and necessary qualifications of religion itself.

 

[blackout]

It is pretty safe to say that most people do at least one or two things "religiously".

Make lunch every day at a certain time.
Take the exact same route home every day.
Never miss a certain tv show.
Get their nails done.
Go to the gym.
Visit a certain forum daily.

 

[outhouse]

It is pretty safe to say that most people do at least one or two things "religiously".

Make lunch every day at a certain time.
Take the exact same route home every day.
Never miss a certain tv show.
Get their nails done.
Go to the gym.
Visit a certain forum daily.

then habit = religion?


whats the matter with following the dictionary?

 

[blackout]

Religion is maybe more about one's chosen experience of life/being,
and the daily rituals that accompany that experience of being?

Quilting could be a religion to a person.
They express their experience of life there in the squares.
Their stitches are their meditative mantra.
They realize and reflect while "performing thier ritual".
They embelish their home with the fruit and love of their works.
They bring and share warmth, and coziness
as a way of life,
and share the folklore of their own life vision
in the squares of their life's expression.

I really think religion has less to do with belief,
and far more to do with one's expression and experience of life and being.

But that's just me.