Evidence for a god existing or not existing

[Vinayaka]

Yes, asking for ‘EVIDENCE’ when all theists and non theists know there is none is ridiculous and a waste of time.

I'm a theist, but have no evidence whatsoever, and freely admit to it. In many cases, the 'evidence' is some sort of illogical circular reasoning. One could write a book on the irrationality of such statements as "I know it's true because my guy said it was true."

Have fun.

 

[loverofhumanity]

People with entrenched, hard wired belief feel that it is fact, and no amount of dictionary definition, logical explaining, groaning, yelling, organized debate, or congruent argument will ever change that. You can't uproot a tree by staring at it. At some point you just have to walk away, realising your efforts are futile.

Like trying to move an immovable mountain!

 

[loverofhumanity]

Don’t tell people they’re wrong.
Bad idea

I can’t tell you that you are wrong. I can only apply my search to myself. I found God. You did not so that’s your life and your search.

 

[Vinayaka]

Like trying to move an immovable mountain!

Pretty much, except that often both sides only see themselves as the ones that are open to change, while it's 'them' that aren't movable. I only gained this insight from discussions on RF.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, asking for ‘EVIDENCE’ when all theists and non theists know there is none is ridiculous and a waste of time.

Let me cut and paste a post from this very thread addressed to another person and could you consider it and respond?

Alright. So consider this case and respond with a critical analysis and response.

The current universe is a closed system as you would know. It is like a thermos. This universe has a radius that is expanding eternally. There is anthropy in the centre and a isotropy at the edge. So the universe as homogeneous as can be and isotropic on a large scale yet with local irregularities like galaxies and stars. If the radius expansion is less by one of 10 to the power of 10 negative the universe would collapse, now, and at the immediate stage of the Big Bang (if you dont believe in the Big Bang, I would like to see your reasoning and engage fruitfully). If it was greater with the same equation, the universe would have been empty. Absolutely. And the universe would not have lived to have life, or have had life. Could you tell me why the universe is the way it is by going to the anthropic principle or some physical explanation? Thats a question to you.

The universe expanding at the absolute critical rate to avoid a collapse. This has to have had a most perfect organisation of chaos and order since the beginning of the universe. With the increase of radius of the universe in line with Radius/temperature and time, the the radius has a critical constancy that the whole life of the universe is depending on. How do you explain this? Thats a question to you.

The universe has a cosmic plan and it is not random. The randomness of the universe can be calculated based on a Turin test considering entropy of blackholes, and baryons and what one could muster. If it was a random process the chance of it being one has been calculated to one part of 10 to the power of 10 to the power of 123. So how do you explain that? Thats a question to you.

To achieve this level of perfection in chaos and order since the Big Bang and the current state maybe you would go to an infinite regression. Do you believe an infinite regression is possible with out a constant? What is your explanation? Thats a question to you.

Please respond critically.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Which is just another expression of evidence- and reasoning-free belief. As I said, if I claim that I have "inner spiritual perception" too and it sees no god or a totally different one (and there are people who'd tell you that), then one of us must be wrong. As I said, out in the real world, at the very least most people who believe by faith and "inner spiritual perception" alone (without evidence) are wrong.

Yes I would say so. But you continue to believe it’s not true until or if you find out otherwise. That’s your journey. No one can tell you they no better than you. I can only tell you I found God but that’s myself. Yes I’m absolutely certain it’s God and not my imagination or superstition or myth or fallacy but that’s for myself. My journey gave me certitude. You follow your own path and only believe what you feel is true and you feel you can accept. That is what I did.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Pretty much, except that often both sides only see themselves as the ones that are open to change, while it's 'them' that aren't movable. I only gained this insight from discussions on RF.

It’s a strange world.

 

[Thief]

For a god existing the evidence is...

the spin and rotation.........................

if science is correct
the expansion from the piont of singularity
would have been .....one shell of an ever expanding explosion

a hollow sphere of energy.......equal in everyway
one percussion

but that is NOT what we see when we look up

the ROTATION NEEDED TO BE IN PLAY....... BEFORE
the sxpansion began

now go sit down and THINK
about it

 

[loverofhumanity]

When one has tasted of the holiness of God, all else is insignificant and as nothing. Joy, gladness and bliss crowd my heart. Is there yet more? If man could only know of the joy of nearness to God he would be free from unhappiness and sorrow.

Yet strangely he contends and thus deprives himself of his true birthright - eternal happiness. That does not mean one does not face adversity and difficulties but they pale into insignificance when compared with the joy of nearness to God.

 

[Thief]

When one has tasted of the holiness of God, all else is insignificant and as nothing. Joy, gladness and bliss crowd my heart. Is there yet more? If man could only know of the joy of nearness to God he would be free from unhappiness and sorrow.

Yet strangely he contends and thus deprives himself of his true birthright - eternal happiness. That does not mean one does not face adversity and difficulties but they pale into insignificance when compared with the joy of nearness to God.

and you are having.....lamb chops
for dinner?

 

[ratiocinator]

if science is correct
the expansion from the piont of singularity
would have been .....one shell of an ever expanding explosion

a hollow sphere of energy.......equal in everyway
one percussion

So you haven't got the first hint of a clue about the big bang. Why am I unsurprised?

 

[KerimF]

If someone couldn't perceive really, in any way, the image of his Creator, his belief or disbelieve of his existence doesn't give him any useful info.

Actually, believing in certain Ruling God is simply a prerequisite ticket to join a certain well-known religious group.
IT IS A FACT that no one can deny or change

 

[Subduction Zone]

That’s just your opinion. You are not me and cannot know that.

NO. It is not just an opinion. That is the problem When you claim to know something and then continually demonstrate that all you have is mere belief then it is your problem.

There is nothing wrong with having a belief. We all have beliefs. But if someone claims to know something that is totally different. When someone claims to know something that means that they need to be able to demonstrate that they know something. Sadly you will continue to say "know" when you only mean that you have a strong belief.

 

[ratiocinator]

The current universe is a closed system as you would know. It is like a thermos. This universe has a radius that is expanding eternally. There is anthropy in the centre and a isotropy at the edge.

Where did you get this? Apart from anything else, the universe (at least according to any current scientific theories) has neither a centre nor an edge. While there is a parameter in cosmology that is often referred to as the 'radius of the universe' it's highly misleading to take the description literally. If the overall curvature is positive then the radius would refer to a notional (not real) 3-sphere (sphere in 4 dimensions) which would have the same geometry on its surface (which would be three dimensional) as the space of the universe.

As for the question of any 'fine tuning' (which this seems to be about), we don't know but postulating a god doesn't help either (a god would be just as 'fine tuned').

 

[QuestioningMind]

Good then. You’ve emptied your cup of preconceptions and fixed ideas. So;

There is a thing confusedly formed,
Born before heaven and earth.
Silent and void
It stands alone and does not change,
Goes round and does not weary.
It is capable of being the mother of heaven and earth.
As yet I do not know it’s name.
I style it ‘the way’.

That's an interesting claim. Any chance you have any evidence that it's actually true?

 

[KerimF]

There is nothing wrong with having a belief. We all have beliefs. But if someone claims to know something that is totally different. When someone claims to know something that means that they need to be able to demonstrate that they know something. Sadly you will continue to say "know" when you only mean that you have a strong belief.

Yes, there in nothing wrong with having a belief. But I personally can't have a blind faith in any person or anything.

I repeat here what I posted earlier:
If someone couldn't perceive really, in any way, the image of his Creator, his belief or disbelieve of his existence doesn't give him any useful info.

Actually, believing in certain Ruling God is simply a prerequisite ticket to join a certain well-known religions group.
IT IS A FACT that no one can deny or change

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, there in nothing wrong with having a belief. But I personally can't have a blind faith in any person or anything.

I repeat here what I posted earlier:
If someone couldn't perceive really, in any way, the image of his Creator, his belief or disbelieve of his existence doesn't give him any useful info.

Actually, believing in certain Ruling God is simply a prerequisite ticket to join a certain well-known religions group.
IT IS A FACT that no one can deny or change

Yes, I will give you that believing in Jesus is a must to be a Christian. That is rather obvious and a minor fact. It doesn't mean that one knows Jesus to exist.

 

[KerimF]

Yes, I will give you that believing in Jesus is a must to be a Christian. That is rather obvious and a minor fact. It doesn't mean that one knows Jesus to exist.

I agree totally with you.
I am a man of reason not faith. If Jesus (as presented on the Gospel), real or myth, couldn't help me get the logical answers of all crucial questions I am interested in about my own existence and the real world I have to live in, I couldn't see in him the divine perfect teacher. It is okay if you cannot get (believe) what I say (after all, we are new to each other) because to most people, formal Christians or not, Jesus is synonym of blind faith (as it is the case with the gods in all other known religions). Therefore, I can't call myself Christian because I know Jesus based on reason, not faith. For example, when I accepted Pythagoras theorem of the right triangle and added it to my set of knowledge I didn't need searching about Pythagoras first to see if he existed or not.

 

[RestlessSoul]

That's an interesting claim. Any chance you have any evidence that it's actually true?

I don’t think of it as a claim. An observation rather. The sage who made the observation - it’s attributed to Lao Tse but it’s true provenance is unknown - invites us to contemplate it, should we do wish.

Think of it, if you care to think of it at all, as poetry, rather than prophecy or theology. If it doesn’t resonate with anything in your soul then feel free to reject it. The loss, if I may say so, is yours; not Lao-Tse’s.

 

[KerimF]

I'm a theist, but have no evidence whatsoever, and freely admit to it. In many cases, the 'evidence' is some sort of illogical circular reasoning. One could write a book on the irrationality of such statements as "I know it's true because my guy said it was true."

Have fun.

I think you assume that whatever you can perceive (or not) in your reality 'has to be the same' for all other humans. If this is the case, you would have no choice but to see anyone who doesn't perceive as you do as if he was fooled in one way or another or his perception has to be an illusion (indeed it is so relative to yours).