Evidence for a god existing or not existing

[wandering peacefully]

I'm a theist, but have no evidence whatsoever, and freely admit to it. In many cases, the 'evidence' is some sort of illogical circular reasoning. One could write a book on the irrationality of such statements as "I know it's true because my guy said it was true."

Have fun.

Reminds me of my occasional belief in some type of 'spirits' that can do magical things like have birds or animals show up at special times or when I ask...or having that 'perfect timing' that's seems too coincidental. It's a nice thought to indulge in now and then but I sure wouldn't be so closed minded to believe it was some sort of "Truth" that everyone should know about or follow because it is a sign from some great diety or other such nonsense.

It is a feeling that I can create in my own mind which feels good from time to time. Just like creating the everything is one feeling when I choose to. Although in nature everything is one so that is not a difficult feeling to invoke or indulge in.

 

[F1fan]

No problem. It is your opinion that I am being evasive. Maybe it may seem like that to you.

Well offer a better explanation why you're asking frivolous questions as we all notice you're avoiding the issue of demonstrating your god exists outside of human imagination.

Thanks. I will not engage in ad hominem anymore. Please engage with the argument.

You've been disingenuous and evasive. I've made no ad him statements.

I asked you many many times to provide your epistemology explaining why a fruitful discussion cannot be made without it but you didnt respond at all.

False, I said that I use the rules of logic. That's it. That is sufficient for anyone to prove their claim is true. If you can't use logic to prove a god exists then that's your problem. You solve it by not making the claim. I have no obligation to help claimants move through their arguments. Claimants either have a valid argument or they don't.

The current universe is a closed system as you would know. It is like a thermos. This universe has a radius that is expanding eternally. There is anthropy in the centre and a isotropy at the edge. So the universe as homogeneous as can be and isotropic on a large scale yet with local irregularities like galaxies and stars. If the radius expansion is less by one of 10 to the power of 10 negative the universe would collapse, now, and at the immediate stage of the Big Bang (if you dont believe in the Big Bang, I would like to see your reasoning and engage fruitfully). If it was greater with the same equation, the universe would have been empty. Absolutely. And the universe would not have lived to have life, or have had life. Could you tell me why the universe is the way it is by going to the anthropic principle or some physical explanation? Thats a question to you.

`Because that is the way it is. If it was different, it would be different. If things were different we might not be here to ask why things are different. You're obviously going for the probability argument here. The simple answer is if there's a lottery and one in a billion will win, the chance that one person out of a billion is 100%. The chance that it is you as one of the billion is 1 in a billion, so very, very unlikely. Your chance is as unlikely as the one person who ends up winning. Why did they win and you didn't?

The universe expanding at the absolute critical rate to avoid a collapse. This has to have had a most perfect organisation of chaos and order since the beginning of the universe. With the increase of radius of the universe in line with Radius/temperature and time, the the radius has a critical constancy that the whole life of the universe is depending on. How do you explain this? Thats a question to you.

Thanks for having the confidence in me to have the answer that no one has. I have no answer. You have no answer. You might make some guesses, and your guesses might be influenced by your religious assumptions. Will those assumptions give you a correct answer? Since they are assumptions and not facts, no. You'll just be guessing. That you need to guess at all would be something to ponder. We all live with uncertainty. Some are just able to accept it.

The universe has a cosmic plan and it is not random.

OK, show us the facts about this, not assumption.

The randomness of the universe can be calculated based on a Turin test considering entropy of blackholes, and baryons and what one could muster. If it was a random process the chance of it being one has been calculated to one part of 10 to the power of 10 to the power of 123. So how do you explain that? Thats a question to you.

More lottery. If the Big Bang happened again it would likely not repeat what has happened in this universe. Probably no earth as we know it.

To achieve this level of perfection in chaos and order since the Big Bang and the current state maybe you would go to an infinite regression. Do you believe an infinite regression is possible with out a constant? What is your explanation? Thats a question to you.

I assume energy has always existed and how it behaves is an ongoing and eternal process.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I agree totally with you.
I am a man of reason not faith. If Jesus (as presented on the Gospel), real or myth, couldn't help me get the logical answers of all crucial questions I am interested in about my own existence and the real world I have to live in, I couldn't see in him the divine perfect teacher. It is okay if you cannot get (believe) what I say (after all, we are new to each other) because to most people, formal Christians or not, Jesus is synonym of blind faith (as it is the case with the gods in all other known religions). Therefore, I can't call myself Christian because I know Jesus based on reason, not faith. For example, when I accepted Pythagoras theorem of the right triangle and added it to my set of knowledge I didn't need searching about Pythagoras first to see if he existed or not.

I seriously doubt if you "know Jesus based on reason". This is the claim of countless Christians but not one has been able to support that claim to date. Go ahead. Give it a shot. Or are you going to refute yourself by refusing to support what you claim to know.

Your example of Pythagoras may fail. His work can be duplicated. That is the nice thing about actual mathematical proofs. The person that they are named for is not required. Only the methodology. Let's take a look at your methodology and see if it works or not.

 

[McBell]

Self knowing does not require proof or any explanation to others.

You repeat this like it is some kind of ace in the hole, but yet, here you are gong on and on trying to explain.....

I know God exists because I see him as clearly as one sees the sun with their outward eyes. But those who cannot see the sun does not change or alter the fact the sun exists, only that their eyesight or inner sight is impaired with regards to seeing God.

And here we have another explantion/justification/bold empty claim.....
So if you honestly do not feel any need to offer up any proof or explanation or justification to others, then is it yourself you are offering up all your proofs, explanations, justifications to?

 

[Vinayaka]

I think you assume that whatever you can perceive (or not) in your reality 'has to be the same' for all other humans. If this is the case, you would have no choice but to see anyone who doesn't perceive as you do as if he was fooled in one way or another or his perception has to be an illusion (indeed it is so relative to yours).

Lots of folks do see it that way, indeed, but I'm not one of them. The diversity on this planet is astounding, and that includes they way people think.

 

[firedragon]

Where did you get this? Apart from anything else, the universe (at least according to any current scientific theories) has neither a centre nor an edge.

Haha. Sorry mate. That is wrong. When I say center I dont mean what you think.

Nevertheless, tell me. In the hot Big Bang model, how do you calculate the division of radius by temperature if there is no edge or centre? Can you explain?

While there is a parameter in cosmology that is often referred to as the 'radius of the universe' it's highly misleading to take the description literally.

No one took it literally as a point in a map. Try and understand the argument. The full argument.

As for the question of any 'fine tuning' (which this seems to be about), we don't know but postulating a god doesn't help either (a god would be just as 'fine tuned').

No. You didnt respond to the full post. Please read the whole thing and respond to each point. Only then it would be fruitful. Yet, I respect your response. Thanks.

 

[firedragon]

`Because that is the way it is. If it was different, it would be different. If things were different we might not be here to ask why things are different. You're obviously going for the probability argument here. The simple answer is if there's a lottery and one in a billion will win, the chance that one person out of a billion is 100%. The chance that it is you as one of the billion is 1 in a billion, so very, very unlikely. Your chance is as unlikely as the one person who ends up winning. Why did they win and you didn't?

Thats your answer? Thus, anyone should answer to every thing anyone asks by saying "this is the way it is"? No. Answer critically. This is you who wanted this discussion. This is not a preaching mode on. Please try and understand. You have not understood the statements.

Thanks for having the confidence in me to have the answer that no one has. I have no answer. You have no answer. You might make some guesses, and your guesses might be influenced by your religious assumptions. Will those assumptions give you a correct answer? Since they are assumptions and not facts, no. You'll just be guessing. That you need to guess at all would be something to ponder. We all live with uncertainty. Some are just able to accept it.

Thanks for more ad hominem. It seems you are not interested in what you asked for.

OK, show us the facts about this, not assumption.

Given already. Maybe you have not understood.

More lottery. If the Big Bang happened again it would likely not repeat what has happened in this universe. Probably no earth as we know it.

this is your critical response? Is this your so called superior scientific analysis?

I assume energy has always existed and how it behaves is an ongoing and eternal process.

1. Are you claiming that energy was necessary? Not contingent?
2. How does that answer the isotropy and the entropy I explained earlier? Do you really believe you making a statement like "I assume energy has always existed" answers this question?

OMG.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I don’t think of it as a claim. An observation rather. The sage who made the observation - it’s attributed to Lao Tse but it’s true provenance is unknown - invites us to contemplate it, should we do wish.

Think of it, if you care to think of it at all, as poetry, rather than prophecy or theology. If it doesn’t resonate with anything in your soul then feel free to reject it. The loss, if I may say so, is yours; not Lao-Tse’s.

'There is a thing confusedly formed' sounds more like a claim than an observation to me. But either way I'm more concerned with the truth of the claim or observation than anything else.

 

[loverofhumanity]

NO. It is not just an opinion. That is the problem When you claim to know something and then continually demonstrate that all you have is mere belief then it is your problem.

There is nothing wrong with having a belief. We all have beliefs. But if someone claims to know something that is totally different. When someone claims to know something that means that they need to be able to demonstrate that they know something. Sadly you will continue to say "know" when you only mean that you have a strong belief.

You don’t know what you’re missing out on. I can’t convey to you the inner peace and contentment I’ve had for over 45 years in a world increasingly sinking in depression, anarchy and hopelessness. Why do you think suicide, drug addiction, domestic violence, suicide and hopelessness and despair are enveloping the world? You have your gods of alcohol, gambling, vices and temporary pleasures and your societies are collapsing and in a complete mess. Mine are full of contentment, peace, indescribable joy and unity and harmony.

You say ‘sadly’. It is not my world which is falling apart, but yours. Your world is spiritually bankrupt sunk in materialism, consumerism and corruption. Mine is surrounded by faithfulness and honesty, trust and full of hope for a glorious future for humanity. This new world is rising up amidst the chaos and confusion of the current world. So we see the death pangs of the old world and the birth pangs of a new world of peace and unity struggling to be born.

Where is your world headed? Nations don’t get along, racism is rife, religious feuds and hatred continue. What is your solution or are you too in denial that something is seriously wrong?

I am with the solution and busy raising up a new world with new people who will not put aside the counsels of God. There is nowhere to flee to, no place except for humanity to turn to God. It will discover this if it has to through torturous suffering caused by attachment to its own ego.

I promise you the day is approaching when men will ditch his own ways for that of God’s and will by doing this achieve peace and harmony which has eluded him so far. Nothing can stop the golden age of godliness and spirituality humanity is fast approaching.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You don’t know what you’re missing out on. I can’t convey to you the inner peace and contentment I’ve had for over 45 years in a world increasingly sinking in depression, anarchy and hopelessness. Why do you think suicide, drug addiction, domestic violence, suicide and hopelessness and despair are enveloping the world? You have your gods of alcohol, gambling, vices and temporary pleasures and your societies are collapsing and in a complete mess. Mine are full of contentment, peace, indescribable joy and unity and harmony.

You say ‘sadly’. It is not my world which is falling apart, but yours. Your world is spiritually bankrupt sunk in materialism, consumerism and corruption. Mine is surrounded by faithfulness and honesty, trust and full of hope for a glorious future for humanity. This new world is rising up amidst the chaos and confusion of the current world. So we see the death pangs of the old world and the birth pangs of a new world of peace and unity struggling to be born.

Where is your world headed? Nations don’t get along, racism is rife, religious feuds and hatred continue. What is your solution or are you too in denial that something is seriously wrong?

I am with the solution and busy raising up a new world with new people who will not put aside the counsels of God. There is nowhere to flee to, no place except for humanity to turn to God. It will discover this if it has to through torturous suffering caused by attachment to its own ego.

I promise you the day is approaching when men will ditch his own ways for that of God’s and will by doing this achieve peace and harmony which has eluded him so far. Nothing can stop the golden age of godliness and spirituality humanity is fast approaching.

Fantasies are often preferable to reality. It appears by one of your statements that your problem may be that of an addictive personality. It would be better to treat the cause than to try to cure it with false beliefs.

 

[KerimF]

I seriously doubt if you "know Jesus based on reason". This is the claim of countless Christians but not one has been able to support that claim to date. Go ahead. Give it a shot. Or are you going to refute yourself by refusing to support what you claim to know.

Your example of Pythagoras may fail. His work can be duplicated. That is the nice thing about actual mathematical proofs. The person that they are named for is not required. Only the methodology. Let's take a look at your methodology and see if it works or not.

Sorry, I have no idea of which claim you are referring to and I have to support... also support to whom?!
I guess I wasn't clear enough on my previous post. I liked to tell you that Jesus is the source of knowledge I was looking for and nothing else. In other words, Jesus miracles have nothing to do with what I learnt from Him. And my knowledge won't be affected in any way if they happened or not. I mean; should I have expected my teacher of Math or Physics do certain miracles to believe what he was teaching is true?!

Am I a Christian? Of course I am not, because all formal Christians are supposed to believe that Jesus came to save them (their soul) by magic (Salvation by faith). In my case, Jesus came to save me from ignorance with which every human baby (I included) is born. So I bet you have also your resources by which you were able defeating your natural ignorance (at birth) concerning many fields in your life.

By the way, I am taking advantage of what I learnt from Jesus (since many decades ago) and if sometimes I mentioned his name, I do it to give him the credit of what I know. It is much like someone quotes someone else he learnt something interesting from him. Does this mean he also worship him?

 

[Thief]

So you haven't got the first hint of a clue about the big bang. Why am I unsurprised?

your empty denial is noted

 

[Thief]

Jesus is synonym of blind faith

nay.....He came so the blind will see

His parables are the light

you say you are a man of reason

 

[F1fan]

God can only be known spiritually.

So how does your mind know god isn't merely imaginary?

Human reason cannot capture God which is why it’s futile to try and use human reason to disprove Him.

You make it sound like you're fearful of subjecting your spirituality to scrutiny.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sorry, I have no idea of which claim you are referring to and I have to support... also support to whom?!
I guess I wasn't clear enough on my previous post. I liked to tell you that Jesus is the source of knowledge I was looking for and nothing else. In other words, Jesus miracles have nothing to do with what I learnt from Him. And my knowledge won't be affected in any way if they happened or not. I mean; should I have expected my teacher of Math or Physics do certain miracles to believe what he was teaching is true?!

Am I a Christian? Of course I am not, because all formal Christians are supposed to believe that Jesus came to save them (their soul) by magic (Salvation by faith). In my case, Jesus came to save me from ignorance with which every human baby (I included) is born. So I bet you have also your resources by which you were able defeating your natural ignorance (at birth) concerning many fields in your life.

By the way, I am taking advantage of what I learnt from Jesus (since many decades ago) and if sometimes I mentioned his name, I do it to give him the credit of what I know. It is much like someone quotes someone else he learnt something interesting from him. Does this mean he also worship him?

I directly quoted the claim that you need to support in my post.

Tell me what your religious beliefs are a bit more clearly and I can tell you what claims you need to support. But right now your Jesus claims would be a good strart.

How do you tell the difference between what you believe and delusion?

 

[F1fan]

Thats your answer? Thus, anyone should answer to every thing anyone asks by saying "this is the way it is"? No. Answer critically. This is you who wanted this discussion. This is not a preaching mode on. Please try and understand. You have not understood the statements.

'
Funny how you can't offer any better. At least I answered honestly. You can't seem to get that degree of courage.

I notice you offer no rebuttal to my answers. So I guess you agree with what I wrote even though you complained.

1. Are you claiming that energy was necessary? Not contingent?

I'm acknowledging that energy and the laws of physics exist. I acknowledge that energy behaves according to the laws of physics.

2. How does that answer the isotropy and the entropy I explained earlier?

My answers are consistent with physics. Is there a problem? If so you offer better answers.

Do you really believe you making a statement like "I assume energy has always existed" answers this question?

OMG.

That is a fair assumption. If you have a problem with it offer a better one that conforms to facts.

 

[Trailblazer]

God can only be known spiritually. Human reason cannot capture God which is why it’s futile to try and use human reason to disprove Him.

Human reason cannot capture God but human reason can be used to investigate God's Messengers, which are the only real proof that God exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

To put it simply:

If you can't show it you don't know it.

Who made that rule?

 

[Trailblazer]

Tests or evidence are required for all claims.

We have evidence to back up our claims but if people don't look at the evidence they cannot see it.
If they just keep saying "that's not evidence" they will never know if it is evidence or not.

The upshot is that humans do not get to decide what kind of evidence God will provide to prove His existence because humans cannot tell an omnipotent God what to do. Thus we either accept the evidence that God has provided throughout the ages or we won't have any evidence at all. It is no skin off God's nose if some people are atheists because God does not need anyone, let alone everyone, believing in Him since God is fully self-sufficient and has no needs whatsoever.

 

[firedragon]

Funny how you can't offer any better. At least I answered honestly. You can't seem to get that degree of courage.

I notice you offer no rebuttal to my answers. So I guess you agree with what I wrote even though you complained.

Ad hominem. I will only dismiss ad hominem because its useless engaging with that kind of exchange. Answer the question critically if you can. Though I dont expect any decent response, I am just asking you nevertheless.

I'm acknowledging that energy and the laws of physics exist. I acknowledge that energy behaves according to the laws of physics.

Thats not a relevant answer. I think you didnt understand any of it. No problem. I shall leave it.

My answers are consistent with physics. Is there a problem? If so you offer better answers.

It was not an answer.

That is a fair assumption. If you have a problem with it offer a better one that conforms to facts.

I have not spoken of anything but facts in that post. But since this is just a rhetorical exchange now, I am of course withdrawing from this discussion expecting you to just dismiss with a small insult like you have done every time.

Have a good day.