Evidence for a god existing or not existing

[Trailblazer]

what I’ve found I wouldn’t barter for all the treasures on earth.

Nor would I. As Baha'u'llah said....

“We have not entered any school, nor read any of your dissertations. Incline your ears to the words of this unlettered One, wherewith He summoneth you unto God, the Ever-Abiding. Better is this for you than all the treasures of the earth, could ye but comprehend it.” Gleanings, p. 199

 

[Trailblazer]

So God can create the entire universe from nothing but can't materialize into some form we mere mortals can see?

Be careful what you ask for. God could do it, but at what expense?

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

It's almost as if a loving God doesn't exist.

Almost but not quite.

At best any God that exists is what Deists believe.

The real God is not the Christian God you have apparently grew up with, it is closer to a deist God.

At some point a "loving God" has to be useful for we mere, fallible mortals to decide exists.

God did make Himself useful when He sent His Messengers. Now it up to humans to pick up the ball and run with it.

This sounds exactly what you would tell someone who is suffering and you can't say anything that will help them make sense of why they suffer if a loving God exists. Of course there's an unverifiable promise of everlasting life after death. I've had this claim drilled into my head since I was a child in Sunday school, and even then I found it very suspicious.

The promises of Baha’u’llah are a little more specific than the promises Jesus made to Christians. Because I believe in Baha’u’llah and trust Him, I know there is a much better life to come.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

The emphasis on the "experience" after death versus being alive is immoral to my mind.

Baha’u’llah told us not to dwell on the afterlife but rather live this life, although we need to be aware an afterlife exists.

Faith can convince people to do things that are contrary to reasoned decisions, and this can have very negative effects on society.

It can if it is blind faith, but I am not recommending that. I am recommending a reason-based faith.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Emotions are invisible too yet they play a vital role in our lives.

And that is quite the red herring.

You appear to be trying to justify your argument with an argument from ignorance. Not knowing something is never evidence for a god.

 

[Subduction Zone]

We were talking about God being a reality that exists and that there are many realities which are not physical that exist, and one of them is the human mind. If it is true that there does exist intellectual realities outside physical existence then the existence of God is also possible.


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And you failed to justify your beliefs. In other words you supported your opposition.

 

[Subduction Zone]

But they are with a lot to those who already know that they are true because they did their own homework.

Baha'u'llah wrote: “For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings, p. 143

No, they merely believe. Remember, a "know" claim puts the burden of proof upon the person making that claim. If they cannot support it the proper conclusion is that they merely believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, they merely believe. Remember, a "know" claim puts the burden of proof upon the person making that claim. If they cannot support it the proper conclusion is that they merely believe.

No, "know" does not put the burden of proof upon anyone unless they are trying to prove something to someone.
That said, you can conclude that they merely believe if you want to but we know that we know.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, "know" does not put the burden of proof upon anyone unless they are trying to prove something to someone.
That said, you can conclude that they merely believe if you want to but we know that we know.

The claim of "know" does. Every time. You are merely looking for an excuse to use a word inappropriately.

There is nothing wrong with claiming to believe. That does not need support. Claiming to know is a totally different issue.

Here is an example:

I know that those people do not know.

By your standards I am right since I do not have to support my "know" claim. Let's try to reason rationally.

 

[KerimF]

Firstly, most atheists do not make a positive claim that god(s) cannot exist - they simply lack a belief that they do because they have never been given a good reason to take any of the many and varied god-concepts seriously. Secondly, you are right, if somebody just says 'god' without further qualification, I'm ignostic about it.

That said, I've encountered multiple (and often contradictory) specific ideas of god - all of which I reject due to a total lack of any reason to take them seriously.

So you were not interested discovering your personal definition of whatever the Will/Energy behind your existence could be. So far, it seems that you are content hearing its various images/definitions offered on the world’s table by some others only.

 

[ratiocinator]

So you wasn’t interested discovering your personal definition of whatever the Will/Energy behind your existence could be.

Why do you think there's a "Will/Energy" behind my existence? For that matter, what is a "Will/Energy"? I know what energy is and it's a property of things (and systems of things) not something in its own right, but "Will/Energy"...?

 

[Subduction Zone]

So you were not interested discovering your personal definition of whatever the Will/Energy behind your existence could be. So far, it seems that you are content hearing its various images/definitions offered on the world’s table by some others only.

Why "Will/Enegy"? Wouldn't "Bill/Energy" be almost exactly the same thing? And of course it is far superior to "Steve/Energy" everyone knows how lazy he is.

 

[Trailblazer]

The claim of "know" does. Every time. You are merely looking for an excuse to use a word inappropriately.

There is nothing wrong with claiming to believe. That does not need support. Claiming to know is a totally different issue.

Here is an example:

I know that those people do not know.

By your standards I am right since I do not have to support my "know" claim. Let's try to reason rationally.

If I say "I know" then I do not have to support that but if I claim to know then that is a horse of a different color.
And I have never refused to explain how I know what I know.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If I say "I know" then I do not have to support that but if I claim to know then that is a horse of a different color.
And I have never refused to explain how I know what I know.

LOL! Oh my Quob! They are one and the same.

Sorry, "I know that you are wrong". And according to you I do not need to support myself.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And you failed to justify your beliefs. In other words you supported your opposition.

This is the line of thought I had as an atheist also. I’ve moved on from there, thank God.

 

[Trailblazer]

LOL! Oh my Quob! They are one and the same.

Sorry, "I know that you are wrong". And according to you I do not need to support myself.

Let's not move the goalposts. I was talking about belief in God, not a forum discussion where someone says they know someone else is wrong about something. Yes, if you accuse me of being wrong, then you should explain why you think I am wrong, because that is only fair. The same applies to me or anyone else who is in a discussion.

 

[KerimF]

In your reality does the Polynesian Chenyra fruit not exist because you've never heard of it? It is described as an oblong fruit about 5 inches long, and red when it ripens. It's mildly sweet with white flesh and small edible seeds.

Sorry, I didn't get your point well.
Anyway, about your specific example, what could be the difference for me between believing or disbelieving in the existence of the Polynesian Chenyra fruit if it can't be useful to me in my reality? In other words, why I should bother myself to find out if certain things not useful to me, in any way (other than talking about them perhaps) do exist or not.

I have a rock that I found on a hike in the Grand Canyon and it means a lot to me. What does it mean to you?

It doesn't mean nothing.
On my side, I don't judge anyone and I don't resit evil even if have all the necessary means to do it, do you know why? Because this hurts my soul. What does it mean to you?

Can you understand that a rational person acknowledges facts as being true outside of their imagination and dreams while the dreamer will also value their personal ideas that are largely irrelevant to anyone else?

You are right because, based on your definition of being rational, I can't be rational. Yes, I can't trust the imaginations of others more than mine though I am glad you can.

 

[KerimF]

Why do you think there's a "Will/Energy" behind my existence? For that matter, what is a "Will/Energy"? I know what energy is and it's a property of things (and systems of things) not something in its own right, but "Will/Energy"...?

Well, truth be told, I also expect that a robot has to just run as it is programmed to do. A robot is not supposed at all to waste its time looking for its maker.
Similarly, as long a human is content following his instincts (programmed in his living flesh) to play the role(s) for which he is brought into life, it would be a real waste of time and efforts for him thinking about anything else.

In other words, what you said is surely true and real.

 

[KerimF]

Why "Will/Enegy"? Wouldn't "Bill/Energy" be almost exactly the same thing? And of course it is far superior to "Steve/Energy" everyone knows how lazy he is.

Sorry but I have to repeat what I said to my friend 'ratiocinator' a few minutes ago:

I expect that a robot has to just run as it is programmed to do. A robot is not supposed, at all, wasting its time searching its maker.

Similarly, as long a human is content following just his instincts (programmed in his living flesh) to play the role(s) for which he is brought into life, it would be a real waste of time and efforts for him thinking about anything else.

Cheers,
Kerim

 

[ratiocinator]

Well, truth be told, I also expect that a robot has to just run as it is programmed to do. A robot is not supposed at all to waste its time looking for its maker.
Similarly, as long a human is content following his instincts (programmed in his living flesh) to play the role(s) for which he is brought into life, it would be a real waste of time and efforts for him thinking about anything else.

None of which actually addresses my questions, or makes much sense in the context, for that matter.

 

[KerimF]

None of which actually addresses my questions, or makes much sense in the context, for that matter.

Yes, I can believe that all what I said has nothing to do, directly or indirectly, with the answers you were expecting to hear from me.
So I am sorry for failing in your exam.

But, on the other hand, I am glad that I failed because I am not a robot. And, instead of wasting my time to please others by giving them the answers they like, I wasted my time to discover the purpose of my life before it is too late.

Please don't waste your time 'guessing' for which reason I was forced to exist in this temporary life in the realm limited by time/space because you never heard of it and I am sure you don't need knowing it

Wish you the best.
Kerim

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

For a god existing the evidence is...

For a god not existing the evidence is...

From this, I conclude that god does not exist.
Because the evidence you shared is exactly the kind and amount of evidence I would expect for the non-existence of an entity.

Here, just compare it with the evidence for the non-existence of:
- extra-dimensional aliens: ...
- pink unicorns: ...
- centaurs: ...
- poseidon: ...
- elves: ...


Curious how much it all looks alike, doesn't it?