Evidence for a god existing or not existing

[ratiocinator]

We are limited in that we all must die. That does not mean we do not continue to evolve afterwards into a higher life form.

This (even if true) doesn't address either of my points.

Those who see death as the end of course feel this way but there are signs within us which indicate we do live on.

The point wasn't about death per se and what are these 'signs'?

Consider the dream. We can travel without moving and speak and hear without using our voices or ears.

And......?

 

[ratiocinator]

I wish you all the very best in locating yourself in your brain.

Yet again you haven't addressed the point - and I wish you the very best locating yourself anywhere else.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This (even if true) doesn't address either of my points.



The point wasn't about death per se and what are these 'signs'?



And......?

The dream is proof we are not our bodies and live on in another dimension.

 

[ratiocinator]

The dream is proof we are not our bodies and live on in another dimension.

Eh? I can't wait to see you attempt to back that up with anything remotely like evidence or reasoning. Also "in another dimension" has no actual meaning. It's a made up term that's used in tacky science fiction.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Eh? I can't wait to see you attempt to back that up with anything remotely like evidence or reasoning. Also "in another dimension" has no actual meaning. It's a made up term that's used in tacky science fiction.

As I stated before, my journey and search found God and the true meanings of these things but you can only judge according to your own search and outcome of your own investigation.

My investigation has led me to follow a path that is prescribed by God’s Messenger for this age and I see clearly the absolute need to be free from prejudice, work for the betterment of humanity and world peace. A God which teaches us these things and to see the whole world as one family is God.

 

[ratiocinator]

As I stated before, my journey and search found God and the true meanings of these things but you can only judge according to your own search and outcome of your own investigation.

My investigation has led me to follow a path that is prescribed by God’s Messenger for this age and I see clearly the absolute need to be free from prejudice, work for the betterment of humanity and world peace. A God which teaches us these things and to see the whole world as one family is God.

Yet again, no answers to the actual questions. Why bring up these points if you're not going to answer any of the objections? One doesn't need to believe fantastical stories in order to want freedom from prejudice, the betterment of humanity, and world peace.

 

[KerimF]

No, I don't think it gives the believer any advantage whatsoever.
In my opinion.

Actually it is a fact
Therefore, the crucial point is to KNOW the best image of our Maker.
I am afraid that the image of God that one may perceive reflects the ideal image of his nature of which he was created.
Therefore, even an atheist sees the ideal image of his deep nature resembling somehow to certain special humans or relating to certain man-made ideal notions in the material world.

Conclusion:
Every humans has a god (even an atheist though he doesn't call it god). Naturally, he also sees his God (an ideal being of himself) as the true one.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Eh? I can't wait to see you attempt to back that up with anything remotely like evidence or reasoning. Also "in another dimension" has no actual meaning. It's a made up term that's used in tacky science fiction.

We know things by their signs. Proof of the sun is it gives light and heat to the world. Proof of the Suns of Truth (Messengers of God) is that They give spiritual light and teachings to the world. It is an established fact that They promote virtues and upright conduct, purity of heart, truthfulness, honesty, love, forgiveness, patience, tolerance and so on.

They are proof of God and Their knowledge is innate. Even though single and alone with the most powerful and cruelest enemies, they subdued and conquered the hearts and minds of the world without an army nor wealth just Their Words.

If anyone feels that they can disprove These were sent by God and were just ordinary men then replicate Their feats of winning all humanity to Their Cause for thousands of years.

And as They are proof of God, whatever They speak is truth also. And They have mentioned that the dream is a sign we have a spiritual entity within us which is eternal.

 

[ratiocinator]

Actually it is a fact
Therefore, the crucial point is to KNOW the best image of our Maker.
I am afraid that the image of God that one may perceive reflects the ideal image of his nature of which he was created.
Therefore, even an atheist sees the ideal image of his deep nature resembling somehow to certain special humans or relating to certain man-made ideal notions in the material world.

Nope - I don't relate to that at all.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yet again, no answers to the actual questions. Why bring up these points if you're not going to answer any of the objections? One doesn't need to believe fantastical stories in order to want freedom from prejudice, the betterment of humanity, and world peace.

It’s for you to find out these things for yourself whether they are true or not. If you don’t accept them then just walk away, saying I’m foolish or silly, but I cannot convince you. It’s for you to convince yourself one way or another. I can only point you to Baha’u’llah and then it’s up to you to look into the matter or not. But for myself I have found truth and God.

 

[ratiocinator]

We know things by their signs. Proof of the sun is it gives light and heat to the world.

Which we can objectively measure and does not depend on subjective judgements of feelings.

Proof of the Suns of Truth (Messengers of God) is that They give spiritual light and teachings to the world. It is an established fact that They promote virtues and upright conduct, purity of heart, truthfulness, honesty, love, forgiveness, patience, tolerance and so on.

Oh, yes, of course, all the followers of all these 'messengers' have universally followed these values, haven't they? Oh, wait, no they haven't.

If anyone feels that they can disprove These were sent by God and were just ordinary men then replicate Their feats of winning all humanity to Their Cause for thousands of years.

Sorry, what religions have won over "all of humanity"?

And as They are proof of God...

Do you understand what 'proof' means?

And They have mentioned that the dream is a sign we have a spiritual entity within us which is eternal.

Who did, and how did they justify such an bizarre proposition?

 

[KerimF]

Nope - I don't relate to that at all.

I expected a reply from danieldemol, but it is okay.

I guess it might be then about one of your secrets, though I personally have no secrets at all
Cheers,
Kerim

 

[ratiocinator]

I expected a reply from danieldemol, but it is okay.

It's an open conversation here - people jump in all the time .

I guess it might be then about one of your secrets, though I personally have no secrets at all

What might be about one of my (supposed) secrets? Some theists seem to find it impossible to get their heads round people not believing in any god(s), so just assume that we must have something equivalent. This is simply not the case. Sorry.

 

[F1fan]

All-powerful does not mean God 'can do anything.' It means has all power. God cannot do what is not within His nature to do, so God cannot materialize since God is spirit, and that is how we know that God did not become the man Jesus.

So God can create the entire universe from nothing but can't materialize into some form we mere mortals can see? God can create humans from dust but it can't maetioalize into some form we can see? God can create magic sperm and impregagnt a mortal woman but can't even materialize as a sort of ghost that we can see?

I don't know, maybe this God just doesn't exist as some fallible mortals assume.

Why would that prove God is loving and what about all the other people who are suffering?

Gee whiz, if I had the power to heal children on their death beds, and as you point out all those others suffering from the bad luck lottery of life, I'd sell everything and just travel the world curing people. And I'm just an ordinary guy who isn't special. What's up with God just sitting on the sidelines? It's almost as if a loving God doesn't exist. At best any God that exists is what Diests believe.

Should God wave a magic wand and make all the suffering disappear?

Hahaha, YES!!!

Wouldn't;t you? If you were in a hospital and saw a 5 year old child about to die from Leukemia, and you had the power to heal, would you just stand there are watch?

At some point a "loving God" has to be useful for we mere, fallible mortals to decide exists.

The caveat is that of we play our cards right that suffering will exist no more after we die and enter the spiritual world because all the suffering is the product of the material world, which is a storehouse of suffering.

This sounds exactly what you would tell someone who is suffering and you can't say anything that will help them make sense of why they suffer if a loving God exists. Of course there's an unverifiable promise of everlasting life after death. I've had this claim drilled into my head since I was a child in Sunday school, and even then I found it very suspicious.

I fin d this kind of concept useful for those on their death beds and in serious emotional crisis. For a young and healthy person this is quite useless. But it's a con that has to be imposed on the flock to help the religious leadership sell a message that is absurd and irrational. Christian theology, especially the jesus myth, is so full of holes that I can see where the promise of immortality has become the main selling point.

The emphasis on the "experience" after death versus being alive is immoral to my mind.

But didn't you know that faith can move mountains?

Faith can convince people to do things that are contrary to reasoned decisions, and this can have very negative effects on society.

 

[F1fan]

One can only validate truth for themselves which I have done. I have investigated truth with my own mind, my own eyes and found God.

For myself there is no doubt whatsoever.

Is it possible you are mistaken, after all you are a fallible mortal who can make errors, yes?

Others must travel their own journey in life and it is up to each to decide for himself whether God exists or not.

So if it is up to we mortals to decide a god exists then you're suggesting it is subject to our personal judgment, and not a matter of fact.

My conclusions are based upon observations of God’s Representatives throughout history.

Conclusions aren't fact, you're making a judgment that may or may not be based on fact or highly biased. This is why those of us who aren't convinced ask you to outline your reasoning and facts so we can assess whether your decision that a God exists is excellent or flawed. Thus far your premises are highly flawed with unwarranted assumptions.

 

[F1fan]

As I stated before, my journey and search found God and the true meanings of these things but you can only judge according to your own search and outcome of your own investigation.

My investigation has led me to follow a path that is prescribed by God’s Messenger for this age and I see clearly the absolute need to be free from prejudice, work for the betterment of humanity and world peace. A God which teaches us these things and to see the whole world as one family is God.

You are framing all these concepts that you value as being limited to individual meaning assignment, but also that these ideas have NO inherent meaning.

You are saying these concepts are like an ordinary rock that you find and decide it is very valuable ONLY because you've decided it has value. This sort of testament has no relevance to anyone else so I'm not sure why you keep telling us about it.

 

[KerimF]

It's an open conversation here - people jump in all the time .

What might be about one of my (supposed) secrets? Some theists seem to find it impossible to get their heads round people not believing in any god(s), so just assume that we must have something equivalent. This is simply not the case. Sorry.

But I hope you are rational as I am.
If someone thinks that something doesn't exist, in his reality in the least, I wonder how he can be sure it cannot exist if he doesn't have first a preliminary definition of that something.

It happens that all atheists I had the chance to talk with on the internet (not face to face) couldn't give me what the word 'god' means to them! They all justified their no-reply that if a word refers to something that doesn't exist this word cannot have a definition as well

I personally understand that every human is free to see himself right; no matter if he is rational or dreamer.

 

[ratiocinator]

If someone thinks that something doesn't exist, in his reality in the least, I wonder how he can be sure it cannot exist if he doesn't have first a preliminary definition of that something.

Firstly, most atheists do not make a positive claim that god(s) cannot exist - they simply lack a belief that they do because they have never been given a good reason to take any of the many and varied god-concepts seriously. Secondly, you are right, if somebody just says 'god' without further qualification, I'm ignostic about it.

That said, I've encountered multiple (and often contradictory) specific ideas of god - all of which I reject due to a total lack of any reason to take them seriously.

 

[F1fan]

But I hope you are rational as I am.
If someone thinks that something doesn't exist, in his reality in the least, I wonder how he can be sure it cannot exist if he doesn't have first a preliminary definition of that something.

In your reality does the Polynesian Chenyra fruit not exist because you've never heard of it? It is described as an oblong fruit about 5 inches long, and red when it ripens. It's mildly sweet with white flesh and small edible seeds.

It happens that all atheists I had the chance to talk with on the internet (not face to face) couldn't give me what the word 'god' means to them! They all justified their no-reply that if a word refers to something that doesn't exist this word cannot have a definition as well

I have a rock that I found on a hike in the Grand Canyon and it means a lot to me. What does it mean to you?

I personally understand that every human is free to see himself right; no matter if he is rational or dreamer.

Can you understand that a rational person acknowledges facts as being true outside of their imagination and dreams while the dreamer will also value their personal ideas that are largely irrelevant to anyone else?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Which we can objectively measure and does not depend on subjective judgements of feelings.



Oh, yes, of course, all the followers of all these 'messengers' have universally followed these values, haven't they? Oh, wait, no they haven't.



Sorry, what religions have won over "all of humanity"?



Do you understand what 'proof' means?



Who did, and how did they justify such an bizarre proposition?

I’m over atheism. At the time I was like you, refuting and challenging everything. It was the right thing to do. But only I myself could find truth. No matter what others said I just opposed them more. But now I’ve attained and no longer require any more proof or evidence.

Just consider me misled and walk away because what I’ve found I wouldn’t barter for all the treasures on earth.