Evidence for an ancient earth

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Are you a bad human if you killed ants? yes or no

It is not a "yes or no" question, and therefore a "yes or no" answer would be lying.

Sheesh, but this isn't Rocket Science, here!

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Not history since it speaks about the end of times.

Nope. Sorry--- you cannot have "fulfilled prophecy" if the events in question haven't happened yet!

That is not how this works!

 

[Guy Threepwood]

So you concede the point, in a creation of God, it's perfectly logical that the story of his creation that unfolds, may begin with pretermined settings and circumstances and impled histories to give them context, as do the vast majority of our creative works

We are human-- so naturally we interpret everything we perceive within the limitations of our primary senses.

As such, our theories and models of how the universe works, are limited by these-- electromagnetic detectors, vibration detectors, and so on.

We humans are getting better at expanding our senses, using "prosthetic" engines that detect things for which we have no biological equivalent, such as radiation, gravity, electricity, and so on. We do translate these findings into visual media, of course, that being our principle method of observation.

A being who had never evolved sight or anything resembling sight, but rather, used sonar or some other active sense (as opposed to sight, which is purely passive--dependent on ambient reflected light), might come up with a slightly different model.

I doubt that, however-- if you get enough information, it tends to smooth out the biases inherent to limited media.

Which is why we know an intelligent creator of the universe was probably not restricted to 'sonar', or why would he create such a thing as visual stimuli at all?

 

[FearGod]

Yes. There is absolutely no evidence otherwise. ALL the evidence is in favor of saying the brain is the organ that thinks in humans.

Do you think the physical brain thinks by itself? explain how

 

[FearGod]

Indeed... many are simply lies.

Why the prophets need to lie in telling about future events? try to tell me some future events that you
think it may happen in the future.

 

[FearGod]

Start with 1:20 into this video.

Still it doesn't answer my question, we didn't see real fixed particles popping into existence from vacuum.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Which is why we know an intelligent creator of the universe was probably not restricted to 'sonar', or why would he create such a thing as visual stimuli at all?

What? You have failed to show your work, here: Where is even a smattering of evidence pointing to a need for an intelligent creator?

In fact? Where is a single idea or fact that [the universe] requires a creator at all?

You are making a giant anthropomorphic leap, here.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Still it doesn't answer my question, we didn't see real fixed particles popping into existence from vacuum.

False. That is exactly what we do see.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Why the prophets need to lie in telling about future events? try to tell me some future events that you
think it may happen in the future.

(once more, and with feeling)

You cannot claim "prophet" if the claims haven't even happened yet.

All you got, is pure speculation.

Or in the vernacular: lies.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Do you think the physical brain thinks by itself? explain how

It is self-evident. Moreover, unintentional experiments with the brain, show that if you apply sufficient damage, the brain can no longer think.

It is not a on/off phenomena, either-- there appears to be a pretty smooth continuum from "not thinking" to "thinking a little" up to "thinking like a genius".

As far as we can tell, bacteria do not think at all, lacking a nervous system, or even a microscopic analog.

But somewhere between bacteria, through earthworms, fish, snakes, reptiles and finally, mammals, there is quite a lot of thinking going on.

A dog, for example, easily demonstrates a degree of self-awareness that rivals that of a very young human. A grey parrot, even more so.

Gorillas are also quite good at thinking, and are clearly self-aware, tool users, and so on. It appears the whales do as well.

It is the height of arrogance, to presume that only humans can think.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

What? You have failed to show your work, here: Where is even a smattering of evidence pointing to a need for an intelligent creator?

In fact? Where is a single idea or fact that requires a creator at all?

You are making a giant anthropomorphic leap, here.

The question was about the 'apparent' age of the Earth. And I think we agree, that it's not illogical, that the work of a creative intelligence would begin with a back-story, the appearance or illusion of a prior history, necessary to give context to the story.

 

[FearGod]

False. That is exactly what we do see.

What kind of matter that came to existence from vacuum? show me one experiment showing that a solid
matter popping from vacuum, is that difficult request?

 

[FearGod]

It is self-evident. Moreover, unintentional experiments with the brain, show that if you apply sufficient damage, the brain can no longer think.

False, it means the brain was dysfunctioned, similar to a damaged hardware. it's like saying the hand moves
itself and the evidence if the hand is damaged then it doesn't move, that's very wrong.

It is not a on/off phenomena, either-- there appears to be a pretty smooth continuum from "not thinking" to "thinking a little" up to "thinking like a genius".

That's true,

As far as we can tell, bacteria do not think at all, lacking a nervous system, or even a microscopic analog.

Not exactly, https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100114143310.htm

But somewhere between bacteria, through earthworms, fish, snakes, reptiles and finally, mammals, there is quite a lot of thinking going on.

A dog, for example, easily demonstrates a degree of self-awareness that rivals that of a very young human. A grey parrot, even more so.

Gorillas are also quite good at thinking, and are clearly self-aware, tool users, and so on. It appears the whales do as well.

It is the height of arrogance, to presume that only humans can think.

Yes it depends on the hardware of each but it doesn't mean that the hardware itself does the thinking
and decision making.

 

[Polymath257]

Do you think the physical brain thinks by itself? explain how

Well, yes, of course it does. We can point to specific areas of the brain that perform different aspects of thinking: the prefrontal cortex for planning, limbic system for emotions, amygdala (and other structures) for memory. It processes information that it gets from the senses via nerves. It stores this information in memory and uses it to model both the world around us and the thoughts of others. In many ways it is a massively parallel computer that is able to model itself, the world around it, and others.

 

[Polymath257]

The question was about the 'apparent' age of the Earth. And I think we agree, that it's not illogical, that the work of a creative intelligence would begin with a back-story, the appearance or illusion of a prior history, necessary to give context to the story.

And Last Thursdayism appears! You see, all your memories, all the world around us, was actually created last Thursday. You can't prove this claim wrong.

And that is *exactly* what you just did. Except that in place of Last Thursday, you put some time a few thousand years ago.

 

[Polymath257]

What kind of matter that came to existence from vacuum? show me one experiment showing that a solid
matter popping from vacuum, is that difficult request?

Well, a *solid* piece of matter won't do so under current conditions. The energy borrowing part reduces the probabilities too much. But we *do* have that electrons and positrons are produced.

Now, in the early universe, there is the additional aspect that the energy borrowing is balanced by the negative gravitational energy. Because of that, the production can continue.

 

[FearGod]

Well, yes, of course it does. We can point to specific areas of the brain that perform different aspects of thinking: the prefrontal cortex for planning, limbic system for emotions, amygdala (and other structures) for memory. It processes information that it gets from the senses via nerves. It stores this information in memory and uses it to model both the world around us and the thoughts of others. In many ways it is a massively parallel computer that is able to model itself, the world around it, and others.

Do you mean that the brain is well designed to do all the job by itself?

 

[Polymath257]

Yes it depends on the hardware of each but it doesn't mean that the hardware itself does the thinking
and decision making.

Given that we can now read some thoughts by looking at how the brain is functioning, yes, it does. What reason do you have to assume there is anything else?

 

[FearGod]

Well, a *solid* piece of matter won't do so under current conditions. The energy borrowing part reduces the probabilities too much. But we *do* have that electrons and positrons are produced.

Now, in the early universe, there is the additional aspect that the energy borrowing is balanced by the negative gravitational energy. Because of that, the production can continue.

And what condition needed to create solid matter?

 

[Polymath257]

Do you mean that the brain is well designed to do all the job by itself?

It is evolved to do the job, yes. It does, of course, interact with the rest of the body.