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Evidence for an ancient earth

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
God doesn't speak to most people in audible voices. Why do you get special consideration here?

And did you ask God for a time to reveal Himself or just leave it to His whim?

And have you considered I'm answering your prayers now? :)

Wow.... what an incredibly d***kish move on the part of your weak-azz godling!

Seriously? He lacks the ethics to actually give clear, and unambiguous instructions to EVERYONE?

But instead, picks SPECIAL FAVORITES? Nepotism, much?

Your god is the least ethical being I am aware of-- worse, even than politicians-- at least they PRETEND to speak to their constituents!
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
For starters? I've never met a Jewish person who seriously believes the bible is not allegorical for the most part.

Jews, even the orthodox conservative Jews tend to be pragmatic to different degrees concerning science, but many conservative orthodox are uncomfortable with evolution from the scientific perspective.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Jews, even the orthodox conservative Jews tend to be pragmatic to different degrees concerning science, but many conservative orthodox are uncomfortable with evolution from the scientific perspective.

Indeed. Thank you for your correction-- I will take care in the future, when referring to people of Jewish faith.

Not ironic, (I believe) I have far more respect for Jewish faith, that any of the other two Abrahamic branches. I suppose I've always respected Original Thought, and the Jews thunk it up first. :)

(I also respect many of the Eastern religions, especially those that do not invoke supernatural aspects, such as secular Buddhism (if that's the right term for it). Some of the pagan faiths, I simply find fascinating.)
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Indeed. Thank you for your correction-- I will take care in the future, when referring to people of Jewish faith.

Not ironic, (I believe) I have far more respect for Jewish faith, that any of the other two Abrahamic branches. I suppose I've always respected Original Thought, and the Jews thunk it up first. :)

(I also respect many of the Eastern religions, especially those that do not invoke supernatural aspects, such as secular Buddhism (if that's the right term for it). Some of the pagan faiths, I simply find fascinating.)

As an Abrahamic religion. the Baha'i Faith accept the Methodological Naturalism of the evolving nature of scientific knowledge than the older traditional Abrahamic religions.

Actually I was a non-Temple Buddhist before I became a Baha'i. The non-Temple Buddhist is the wandering Buddhist with no affiliation to Zen, Tibetan, Pure Land Buddhism, Mahayana, Theravada, or Vajrayana Buddhism. and the rejection of monasticism. Secular Buddhism? or Won comes close.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
As an Abrahamic religion. the Baha'i Faith accept the Methodological Naturalism of the evolving nature of scientific knowledge than the older traditional Abrahamic religions.

Actually I was a non-Temple Buddhist before I became a Baha'i. The non-Temple Buddhist is the wandering Buddhist with no affiliation to Zen, Tibetan, Pure Land Buddhism, Mahayana, Theravada, or Vajrayana Buddhism. and the rejection of monasticism. Secular Buddhism? or Won comes close.

Thanks for the info. :)
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Pardon me, isotropic.

My point being that you and other skeptics on this forum keep speaking of certain scientific concepts as if they are proven.

Well, we have even pictures of that. You also mentioned them.

We have pictures of the Universe as it was about 300,000 years old, while you have no pictures of Jesus taking off to Heaven. Just some stories that have the same evidence of other stories, including King Arthur and Robin Hood.

And you accuse us of too much confidence?

Ciao

- viole
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
That's not a rebuttal. You may as well have posted "Nuh uh".


You're not grasping the situation. The amount of heat given off by continents moving across the globe, entire mountain ranges forming, sea floors moving up and down......all in a very short period of time, would completely boil off the oceans and atmosphere. There would be no "local areas" where anything could live.

But perhaps none of that matters to you. I guess such physical realities would only matter if you were the type of person who values such information and is open to changing his beliefs in the face of it. Or are you more the type who will continue to believe in the Biblical flood regardless of any physical realities or other information?

I didn't say a "very short period of time" but rather, a millennia or more. There are reports online where you can see an estimation of lower mountain ranges and so forth, answering the concerns you are expressing here.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Really? And what might those reasons be?

A few reasons:

1. Fulfilled prophecy, both ancient and modern. Have you reviewed the dozens of prophecies modern Israel has fulfilled, for example?

2. Life changes and power for living.

3. The uncanny ability of books like Proverbs (rarely discussed/attacked by skeptics) to describe all types of human behavior with predictive precision.

Etc.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Source for your claim, here? There is no world-wide, universal discontinuity at 195,000 or any point for that matter, in the past.

It just isn't there, and is not supported by the facts.

Look up pre-history in the dictionary or Wikipedia. Prior to approximately the time that YECs believe there was a universal Flood, there were ZERO written human documents.

But we keep going on tangents. You ask me for facts, saying the burden of proof is on me. Fact: man will not create a utopia until man is able to better his behavior. Jesus transforms us to make us ready for a utopia.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
The last Ice Age didn't last for 1000 years. It is known as the
Quaternary glaciation (or Pleistocene glaciation).

It began around 2.5 million years ago, hence at the start of Quaternary period and the Pleistocene epoch. This last Ice Age had a number or cycles of glacial and interglacial periods.

Interglacial period is a period of warm climate, that can last for thousands of years, in between two glacial periods.

Meaning the ice age goes through series of cold and warm stages, and each stage last for 10s or 100s of years.

The Holocene epoch marked the end of the very last glacial period, about 10,000 or 11,000 years ago, when the Neolithic period started.

Some palaeo-climate experts or scientists, think that the Ice Age hasn't ended yet; that our current epoch - the Holocene - is merely interglacial period. That another glacial period might occur sometimes in the next few thousand years from now, but that's only a prediction, not a certainty.

Despite the terms "Ice Age", it is common mistake for most people who never study the last Ice Age that the whole earth was covered in ice. That's not true.

The ice sheets only covered certain region. Much of the lands of lower attitudes was untouched by ice sheets.

In the New World, the ice-sheets covered all of Canada, but only certain regions in the US. In the south, only the the Andes mountain range were covered.

And in the Euroasian continent it mostly covered the British Isles, Scandinavia, parts of Central Europe and Siberia. Pockets of ice sheets covered highlands, such as the Swiss Alps and the Himalayas.

Can you provide a scientific sources that say the Ice Age only lasted for 1000 years?

The Ice Age epochs are dated based on uniformitarian assumptions. I've noticed, however, that ice is made of water and that water covered the Earth in a Flood. The evidence is there for a Flood but is interpreted differently by scientists.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Hezekial's tunnel is definitely a match with the bible, but not David's tomb. We don't know whose tomb it belong to.

But nothing set in the Neolithic period (eg Adam) or Bronze Age (eg Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses' exodus, Joshua's invasion of Canaan, Samson) match with history or with archaeology.

The Flood can be dated to a time between 2340 and 2106 BCE. And in Genesis 10, it stated that Egypt (or Mizraim) didn't exist until Ham's son, but that clearly not true, because Egypt culturally exist at least to 4000 BCE.

Genesis 10 also say that Uruk or Erech didn't exist until Ham's grandson, Nimrod, built this city, but that also not true. The first settlement of Uruk was 5000 BCE, and was the most powerful city during the 4th millennium BCE. These dates I gave here, predated the Sumerian civilisation and culture of the 3rd millennium BCE.

You are assuming Bible dates that I didn't post, and that the Bible doesn't give.

There is good evidence for Abraham, Joseph, Moses, etc. but you may be unfamiliar with it.

What you are attempting to do is invalidate the Bible as a solid resource book. Difficult to do since prophecy fulfillment and other things prove the Bible to be a true set of books.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
It is clear that no Hebrew written record of Genesis and the rest of the Pentateuch exists prior to 600 BCE and the first known scripture the 'silver scrolls.' There is no known comprehensive scripture of the Old Testament prior to the Dead Sea scrolls. The evidence fro the origin of much of the Pentateuch is the older Babylonian, Ugarit, and Canaanite cuneiform tablets.



Occam's razor tells you no such thing.

This really such a stretch concerning the legends of a great flood that it is blatantly false. There are legends of a great flood in different cultures, but not 100, and they all do not claim that God judged the world.

For example the legends of Great floods in China are not attributed to Divine retribution. There is geologic evidence of these great floods of China involving the two major rivers, which are subject to catastrophic floods throughout recorded history, and are not described as world floods. The legends of China center on the human heroics to deal with these floods.

I'm aware that the Flood narratives diverge, some having divine retribution, some other aspects. You may be unaware that it has been considered that the origin for the Chinese character for "ship" is based on eight persons, as in the Flood narrative!

When are you dating the Sea Scrolls to? Are you familiar with the Septuagint, that establishes the OT as at least as old as 250 BCE? Important because the OT has prophecies fulfilled in the time of Christ and in modern times....
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
There is enough archeological evidence from the history of Egypt, and Palestine to document that Exodus as described in the Bible did not happen.



There are, of course, archaeological evidence for events recording in the Bible, but not thousands, and there is abundant geologic and archaelogical evidence that most of the events in the Pentateuch did not in reality take place including the legend of the Exodus.

Of course, the Bible is set in history like all ancient scripture of all religions, and some events in the Bible are historical events. but the geologic and Biblical evidence is abundantly clear, the Bible is not history.

I would respectfully disagree:

1. It is known that ones not in favor would be struck from records, like Moses.

2. There are a few archaeologists living and digging in the Sinai on a (needfully) temporary basis. There are divergent maps routing the Exodus over the 40 years, since many of the place names described are lost to history. 500 archaeologists could dig at spot X and be 200 yards from 1,000 pottery fragments (under shifting sands in many cases, too).

3. Skeptics have camped out (pun not intended) on the Exodus for quite some time recently. This is a straw man meant to diverge from the thousands of biblical facts that are established in history and archaeology.

Regardless, however, of how you feel about the Bible as a history source, it is important how you feel about it as a salvation source. I'm fully convinced that man cannot enact a utopia as long as man goes against his conscience to cause harm to himself and others. Man must be transformed--therefore, the cross and resurrection of Christ. Have you trusted Christ for salvation? I have, as the narrative is clear and evident to me in the testaments.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
None of your points address the conundrum: Your god condones (and indeed--- PLANNED) to use incest, if your myths are accurate.

Fortunately? DNA proves beyond any doubt there is no genetic bottleneck-- humans never, ever descended from a single mated pair. Ever.

But your myths require this to have happened twice--- never happened. DNA proves this.

I understand your claim--genetics show humans didn't descend from a single mated pair ever.

Are you claiming that evolution produced multiple humans in one generation? Please explain that mechanism to me.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
For starters? I've never met a Jewish person who seriously believes the bible is not allegorical for the most part.

Believing the bible is a History Of Magic (as is required for the myths to be real) only comes from Genuine Christians™ who have stolen the Jewish book, and force-fit the heretic Paul's writings as a thin veneer...

So pardon me if I do not believe you....

Clearly you don't understand, likely my fault. Let me put it in other words:

Most Jews are like most Gentiles, disbelieving any part of the Bible is the Word of God. It's hard for me to take Jewish interpretations of the NT as false if those Jewish interpreters don't admit their own hypocrisy (like twisting the scriptures to say they can be saved apart from faith or 100% law obedience).
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
No-- YOU are ignoring the hundreds of years of archeological study in that area-- and there never was a mass exodus from Egypt. This comes from the people who have lived there for thousands of years-- the Egyptians themselves.

Exodus never happened-- you have absolutely zero facts that support it.




No-- because there are none such. Show me a non-christian archaeologist who believes as you do? And I'll listen.

I won't take the "word" of someone who has a reason to lie about it... there is money to be made, after all, in selling books to gullible fools.

Which non-Christian archaeologist would affirm an Exodus in the Sinai without forensic evidence? None. I agree.

I'm simply proposing that you be more open-minded regarding:

1. The limited desert conditions in which "archaeologists have worked for centuries" in the Sinai, as if their are 1,000 of them in the desert there now. There are not, at all, by any stretch.

2. The massive breadth and length of the region under study.

3. The lack of archaelogical/historical agreement as to the route.

4. The sands that in places shift and obscure dig sites.

5. The odds of finding the relics needed/claimed in such a large area...
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Oh, I am quite certain there was a Legend Of Noah.

But I am equally certain you could very accurately re-create the entire story, with a smallish wooden raft, a farmer, his wife & a couple of kids, several farm animals, and a flooded lake over a few days...

"Did you hear the story of Noah? He and his family survived that massive flood! They were out on the lake for several days!"

"Did you hear the story of that amazing dude, Noah? He built this giant raft, and he and the whole village -- animals too -- survived on the lake for 3 weeks! True story, bra!"

"Did you hear the story of God's Man Noah? He made this giant boat, and saved all the animals in the kingdom-- yes, all the horses too-- from that mass flood last year. Took 3 months for the water to go down! Really happened, I swear!"

"Did you hear... "

That is your explanation for why over 120 ancient cultures teach a worldwide Flood story?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Wow.... what an incredibly d***kish move on the part of your weak-azz godling!

Seriously? He lacks the ethics to actually give clear, and unambiguous instructions to EVERYONE?

But instead, picks SPECIAL FAVORITES? Nepotism, much?

Your god is the least ethical being I am aware of-- worse, even than politicians-- at least they PRETEND to speak to their constituents!

I don't understand. I'm speaking of the opposite of special favors. I said God never spoke to me in an audible voice, and that seeking one seems long odds IMHO.

You have clear, unambiguous instructions in the Bible regarding what to do to contact God and to hear from God, however.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
A few reasons:

1. Fulfilled prophecy, both ancient and modern. Have you reviewed the dozens of prophecies modern Israel has fulfilled, for example?
I have looked at the *claims*, but have found the 'prophecies' to be either vague or self-fulfilling.

2. Life changes and power for living.
Available in every religion and philosophy.

3. The uncanny ability of books like Proverbs (rarely discussed/attacked by skeptics) to describe all types of human behavior with predictive precision.
Etc.
Funny, I find it quite 'canny'. The range of behaviors is fairly small and of the sort expected in the society it came from.
 
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