Evidence for an ancient earth

[BilliardsBall]

That's not how evolution works, is it? There never was a point EVER, when you could say, "This generation is NOT human, but THIS (next) generation IS".

Ever. Evolution does not work that way. You did NOT go from a pair of Wolf parents to a Chihuahua dog in one step....

Did immense numbers of proto-humans/humans simultaneously evolve in one generation, or do you think there were two first people only?

And do you think the prohibition against incest is natural or evolved over time? Are you saying there is no incest in the animal kingdom?

Your saying "incest is wrong" could be based on your own taboos, cultural inclinations, your revulsion to retardation and other things. It sounds, though, like you are agreeing with the Mosaic Law against incest! Thanks!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Name even ONE "bible fact".

Hint: In Harry Potter novels, the city of London is mentioned a lot.

That doesn't mean Hogwarts is a real place. Mention of real places isn't supporting evidence.

The entire book of Acts includes hundreds of people, places, names, configurations of ports for ships, prevailing wind patterns, cultural milieu, etc.

I can't keep "discussing" with you if you keep saying the same mindless things over and again without presenting facts.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Says ... YOU. Who put YOU in charge as to what is twisted and what isn't?

On what do you base your claim that scripture has to be twisted such that Jesus is exclusive?

I challenge you to point to a part of the NT that makes this claim-- apart from the controversial Revelations, which even early Christians did not think was a valid document?

The fact is? There is no exclusive doctrine in the bible -- except for one heretical book which was most likely a hallucination from bad rye bread. And worse-- wasn't written until over a century after the alleged "blessed events"...

Who put you in charge to say that my interpretations are wrong?

 

[BilliardsBall]

"massive length of the region under study"? SERIOUSLY?

The area has been continuously inhabited by humans for more than 4,000 years.

But wait! It's worse! Hannibal's Elephants over the mountains was something like 100 times longer, over a much-much larger area, with far smaller population-- and we have archeological evidence all along the path... !

So the fact there is zero evidence that a MILLION PEOPLE LIVED IN A TINY DESERT SMALLER THAN NEW JERSEY, is pretty darn certain proof nothing of the sort took place.

I understand, so how many archaeologists would it take to dig 100 feet down in an area smaller than New Jersey.

You know the Jewish people were collocated in a war camp for the 40 years, rather than spread out across "the state of New Jersey"? They did travel, but together, as a mighty little desert band.

 

[BilliardsBall]

LOL! An even larger number of ancient cultures don't.

The fact that some cultures who existed next to flood-prone and large bodies of water, had stories of flood survival ... is hardly surprising.

That is certainly NOT proof of a singular, one-time global event-- an event which never happened.

No record in the rocks.

No record in the rocks of . . . what?

Is there a place on this Earth that has never been touched by water or precipitation according to geology? Is that what you're saying? That would be an outrageous claim.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Both christianity and the old testament dogma, teach that bible-god is ALL ABOUT SPECIAL FAVORITES.

Special Peter. Special Paul. Special Abraham. Special King David. Special--- special---special-- and endless train of very special selected people that bible god DELIBERATELY AND WITH AVARICE PLACES IN A SUPERIOR POSITION TO THE DETRIMENT OF THE REST OF HUMANITY.

This is the opposite of ethical or moral. The bible's god is immoral.



Really. That's the lie you are going to go with? IF THEY ARE SO CLEAR?

WHY ARE THERE 40,000 DIFFERENT BRANDS OF "GENUINE CHRISTIAN™" ?

That. That fact-- proves the bible is the exact opposite of "clear"

If the Bible teaches special favorites, why does John say, "Whoever will, trust in Christ, and be saved?"

If the Bible teaches special favorites, how come their are murderers on death row, and prostitutes, and slavers and drug abusers, worldwide, receiving Christ as Savior as you read these words?

That the gospel produced 40,000 church movements, and 40,000 charities, and 40,000 witnessing organizations, is lovely. You speak as though all 40,000 sects were splits!

 

[BilliardsBall]

I *am* consistent. And it is *not* logical that evolution would give rise to a pair of humans initially. In fact, it shows a great deal of ignorance to what evolution actually says.

It's a willful, pretended ignorance, in this case. An entire population could carry certain genetic markers and transform as easily as one and their mate could (because it's all a fantasy tale, anyway)!

I suppose thousands of fish all developed the ability to eat food on land simultaneously also--that's no more ridiculous then one doing so. Puh-lease!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Every people is persecuted by some and blessed by others. Nothing remarkable here.


Be specific. Which prophesies were fulfilled by these events? How specific were they?

As a Jew, I know how remarkable we are! The Jewish people were martyred in 100 nations, there's nothing quite like us!

Prophecies gave the specific date for the restoration of Israel in May 1948!

 

[Polymath257]

As a Jew, I know how remarkable we are! The Jewish people were martyred in 100 nations, there's nothing quite like us!

Prophecies gave the specific date for the restoration of Israel in May 1948!

Care to give the specific prophesy there? Exactly which verse in the Bible is it?

 

[shunyadragon]

I would respectfully disagree:

1. It is known that ones not in favor would be struck from records, like Moses.

2. There are a few archaeologists living and digging in the Sinai on a (needfully) temporary basis. There are divergent maps routing the Exodus over the 40 years, since many of the place names described are lost to history. 500 archaeologists could dig at spot X and be 200 yards from 1,000 pottery fragments (under shifting sands in many cases, too).

First most of the possible Exodus routes do not have shifting sands like the Sahara Desert. They are ancient river valleys and plains around oasis and mountains and known trading routes based on the accounts in the text of Exodus.

3. Skeptics have camped out (pun not intended) on the Exodus for quite some time recently. This is a straw man meant to diverge from the thousands of biblical facts that are established in history and archaeology.

I definitely do not buy thousands of Biblical facts as established in history and archaeology. There are individual facts that have been documented by archaeology, but many facts have been found false, for example the accounts of the invasion of Palestine by the Hebrews in Exodus. The archaeology demonstrates that no such ivasion took place.

Regardless, however, of how you feel about the Bible as a history source, it is important how you feel about it as a salvation source. I'm fully convinced that man cannot enact a utopia as long as man goes against his conscience to cause harm to himself and others. Man must be transformed--therefore, the cross and resurrection of Christ. Have you trusted Christ for salvation? I have, as the narrative is clear and evident to me in the testaments.

Topic of an other thread. I am a Baha'i an believe in a more universal evolving Revelation for the whole world throughout the history of humanity and not one of the many churches and other religions which claim the exclusive right of salvation by their way only,

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

How did Israel self-fulfill the prophecies about being a blessing and also persecuted in many nations?

How did Israel self-fulfill dozens of prophecies about its nation circa 1948 CE?

I've considered what you've considered and found it wanting.

Not one "prophecy" that is actually worth anything was "fulfilled".

Vague "there will be wars at some point" isn't a prophecy-- it's a guess. And a pretty cowardly one at that.

It's like saying, "In the tropics, it sometimes rains a lot."

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No, I was countering the remark that no two humans had incest with my comments that it is eminently logical that evolution, if true, would give rise to a pair or two of humans initially, only.

Be consistent.

That is the opposite of logical. We did NOT go from Wolf one generation to bulldog in the next generation.

At no SINGLE point in the process of "wolf" to "bulldog" can you say, "the parents were wolf but the pups were bulldogs"

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I'm doing no such thing. There were waters and some mountain peaks covered. The Bible doesn't say, "And then, the mountains never got higher." YECs started down this road thinking about sediment left by the Flood and the shaking of the Earth off a straighter axis...

...I wholly accept the time frames given in the Bible for the Flood.

Then you have a serious and fatal problem with your story:

Either you accept MAGIC that *poofed* enough water into existence and then *POOFED* it away again?

Or the world was flat enough that the observed water would cover the highest mountain by several cubits (as the bible claims).

If the world WAS flatter? You would need 100-200 MILLION YEARS to change a flat world into the current world--- OR ELSE IT WOULD MELT FROM THE HEAT RELEASE.


The ONLY way the world flood could have happened is by using MAGIC-- to bring in enough water, then to REMOVE said water -- then to REMOVE ALL TRACES OF WATER-DAMAGE.

But wait! It gets WORSE: MORE magic to *poof* back the plants that DIED from the flood-- Noah took no plants... but the story demands trees after the flood-- MAGIC?

MORE magic to POOF all the different species we see today-- Noah could not have taken them all.

MORE magic to POOF back all the DEAD OCEAN LIFE-- the mix of fresh and salt would have KILLED ALL SEA LIFE. Noah took no sea life in the ark.

MORE magic to POOF AWAY all the decaying carcasses that would have POISONED THE EARTH from all the rotting.

MORE magic to POOF AWAY all the SALT which would have POISONED THE WHOLE PLANET'S SOILS --- EVERYWHERE.

That's a very short and incomplete list of the MAGICAL POOFING REQUIRED.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

A cave painting is not a document with an alphabet/writing. Unless you think people used cave paintings for thousands of years to transact commerce and justice along with "history".

The above? Is literally grasping at straws-- cave paintings absolutely ARE documentation, fabricated by humans.

More-- they would be destroyed by your myth-flood-- that they exist? And many are 50,000 years old?

PROVE TO 100% YOUR FLOOD NEVER TOOK PLACE AS YOUR BIBLE STATES.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Did immense numbers of proto-humans/humans simultaneously evolve in one generation, or do you think there were two first people only?

And do you think the prohibition against incest is natural or evolved over time? Are you saying there is no incest in the animal kingdom?

Your saying "incest is wrong" could be based on your own taboos, cultural inclinations, your revulsion to retardation and other things. It sounds, though, like you are agreeing with the Mosaic Law against incest! Thanks!

Look. Until you get a basic understanding of how populations work, and how evolution actually works?

Your absolutely ludicrous and nonsensical first paragraph above? Is absolutely devoid of useful comment.

Individuals do not--absolutely do not evolve. Only populations evolve.

If your population is too small? It will quickly die out-- so we cannot start with just two-- that would absolutely die out within a few generations. We know this-- because we have witnessed it happening in actual populations. Or did you forget how many species have become extinct since we started paying attention?

Your Eden story could never happen as written-- you cannot start from just two,

And indeed: your bible seems to agree with you-- the second "Geneses Creation Event", which occurs after the Traditional (and very silly one) of only 7 days? Indicates god created humanity-- male AND female-- PLURAL: many-many men AND many-many women.

Creationists never do answer this problem in their Genesis narrative without stooping to ... lying about it.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The entire book of Acts includes hundreds of people, places, names, configurations of ports for ships, prevailing wind patterns, cultural milieu, etc.

I can't keep "discussing" with you if you keep saying the same mindless things over and again without presenting facts.

The Harry Potter books contain hundreds of people, places, names and configurations from the real world-- does this mean Hogwarts is a Real School for Wizards?

NOT FACTS IN SUPPORT OF YOUR CLAIM.

Aaaaaannd the ball is still in your court: you have no actual facts that support the bible's stories.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Who put you in charge to say that my interpretations are wrong?

I did-- all I have to do? Is question YOUR authority-- where did YOU get such authority?

Hmmm? YOU ARE THE ONE MAKING THE CLAIM-- IT IS UP TO YOU TO PROVE YOUR CLAIM.

I'm just asking: PROVE IT.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I understand, so how many archaeologists would it take to dig 100 feet down in an area smaller than New Jersey.

You know the Jewish people were collocated in a war camp for the 40 years, rather than spread out across "the state of New Jersey"? They did travel, but together, as a mighty little desert band.

And Hannibal and his elephants with his small army took .... JUST A FEW YEARS... and left lots and lots of traces.

BUT 40 YEARS: 2 GENERATIONS, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, COUNTLESS DEATHS, BIRTHS, ETC LEFT NO TRACES?

Not even one pottery shard?

Exodus never happened.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No record in the rocks of . . . what?

A global flood that happened in the same time-frame-- as required by your myth.

Is there a place on this Earth that has never been touched by water or precipitation according to geology? Is that what you're saying? That would be an outrageous claim.

Yes. Parts of Antarctica is one example. There are tops of mountains here or there, which were never flooded as well, for other examples.

But nevermind that: NO SINGULAR, GLOBAL, ALL-AT-ONCE FLOOD HAPPENED.

NOTHING IN THE ROCKS---ANYWHERE--- SUPPORTS SUCH A CLAIM.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

If the Bible teaches special favorites, why does John say, "Whoever will, trust in Christ, and be saved?"

Why only christ? why not other Super Friends? Why not Thor, or Zeus?

And why do we always have to hear about The Legend Of Jesus from.... humans?

The fact that humans have to tell this silly story for it to spread is 100% proof it is not from any god!

If the Bible teaches special favorites, how come their are murderers on death row, and prostitutes, and slavers and drug abusers, worldwide, receiving Christ as Savior as you read these words?

Because Genuine Christianity™ is utterly worthless as a way to help people be better people?

And why not? Murder entire nations, like, say the Creeks or the Cherokees, then ask Jesus to forgive, and *POOF* like magic-- off to Heaven for You!

Heck-- you can murder, then eat your victims-- and still end up in heaven! It's worthless--- there are literally no consequences, so long as you cast the Magic Spell of 'Jesus Forgive'

That the gospel produced 40,000 church movements, and 40,000 charities, and 40,000 witnessing organizations, is lovely. You speak as though all 40,000 sects were splits!

They were-- the proof? THEY ALL BELIEVE THEY ARE EACH THE ONE TRUE BRAND. OR THEY WOULD NEVER HAVE SPLIT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

That is 100% proof there is NO GOD behind ANY-- what human-created version could possibly compete with one backed by ACTUAL GODLY ADVICE?

NONE!