Evidence for an ancient earth

[Polymath257]

I understand your claim--genetics show humans didn't descend from a single mated pair ever.

Are you claiming that evolution produced multiple humans in one generation? Please explain that mechanism to me.

Changes between species happen over a course of many generations. There isn't a definite line that separates what is and what is not human. It is populations that change over time. And at no time was the population down to less than 1000.

Think of it like this: there was never a 'first French speaker'. But 2000 years ago, nobody spoke French. Now they do. The language changes gradually over time and was understandable to those who spoke it as a language at each stage.

So there was no 'multiple French speakers produced in one generation'.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I didn't say a "very short period of time" but rather, a millennia or more. There are reports online where you can see an estimation of lower mountain ranges and so forth, answering the concerns you are expressing here.

Question: Why do you ignore the Noah story bits, where it states that it was roughly 2 years from request to build an ark, to the ark's finally resting on top of a (apparently not there before) mountain....

If you are willing to ignore the time-frame as described in the bible, why not accept that it was Just A Story?

 

[Jose Fly]

I didn't say a "very short period of time" but rather, a millennia or more.

That is an extremely short period of time for entire mountain ranges to rise, cool, and come to their current state.

There are reports online where you can see an estimation of lower mountain ranges and so forth, answering the concerns you are expressing here.

Then link to some. I've already cited and linked to one from a YEC who admitted that the massive heat issue can only be resolved with multiple, large-scale miracles.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Look up pre-history in the dictionary or Wikipedia. Prior to approximately the time that YECs believe there was a universal Flood, there were ZERO written human documents.

That is patently false. Cave paintings certainly qualify as written documents (one example). As do clay impressions-- some of which were unbaked (and therefore would be destroyed by flooding). (another example)

The YEC's as per their habit, are grasping at non-existent straws. Or, like Behe, they are lying and they KNOW they are lying.

 

[Polymath257]

I didn't say a "very short period of time" but rather, a millennia or more. There are reports online where you can see an estimation of lower mountain ranges and so forth, answering the concerns you are expressing here.

When discussing geology, a millenium (1000 years) is a *very* short period of time! Even a thousand times that much is short for most of geology.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I understand your claim--genetics show humans didn't descend from a single mated pair ever.

Are you claiming that evolution produced multiple humans in one generation? Please explain that mechanism to me.

That's not how evolution works, is it? There never was a point EVER, when you could say, "This generation is NOT human, but THIS (next) generation IS".

Ever. Evolution does not work that way. You did NOT go from a pair of Wolf parents to a Chihuahua dog in one step....

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Good point. David's tomb is arguable. Now, deal with the thousands of other Bible facts!

Name even ONE "bible fact".

Hint: In Harry Potter novels, the city of London is mentioned a lot.

That doesn't mean Hogwarts is a real place. Mention of real places isn't supporting evidence.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Clearly you don't understand, likely my fault. Let me put it in other words:

Most Jews are like most Gentiles, disbelieving any part of the Bible is the Word of God. It's hard for me to take Jewish interpretations of the NT as false if those Jewish interpreters don't admit their own hypocrisy (like twisting the scriptures to say they can be saved apart from faith or 100% law obedience).

Says ... YOU. Who put YOU in charge as to what is twisted and what isn't?

On what do you base your claim that scripture has to be twisted such that Jesus is exclusive?

I challenge you to point to a part of the NT that makes this claim-- apart from the controversial Revelations, which even early Christians did not think was a valid document?

The fact is? There is no exclusive doctrine in the bible -- except for one heretical book which was most likely a hallucination from bad rye bread. And worse-- wasn't written until over a century after the alleged "blessed events"...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Which non-Christian archaeologist would affirm an Exodus in the Sinai without forensic evidence? None. I agree.

I'm simply proposing that you be more open-minded regarding:

1. The limited desert conditions in which "archaeologists have worked for centuries" in the Sinai, as if their are 1,000 of them in the desert there now. There are not, at all, by any stretch.

2. The massive breadth and length of the region under study.

3. The lack of archaelogical/historical agreement as to the route.

4. The sands that in places shift and obscure dig sites.

5. The odds of finding the relics needed/claimed in such a large area...

"massive length of the region under study"? SERIOUSLY?

The area has been continuously inhabited by humans for more than 4,000 years.

But wait! It's worse! Hannibal's Elephants over the mountains was something like 100 times longer, over a much-much larger area, with far smaller population-- and we have archeological evidence all along the path... !

So the fact there is zero evidence that a MILLION PEOPLE LIVED IN A TINY DESERT SMALLER THAN NEW JERSEY, is pretty darn certain proof nothing of the sort took place.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

That is your explanation for why over 120 ancient cultures teach a worldwide Flood story?

LOL! An even larger number of ancient cultures don't.

The fact that some cultures who existed next to flood-prone and large bodies of water, had stories of flood survival ... is hardly surprising.

That is certainly NOT proof of a singular, one-time global event-- an event which never happened.

No record in the rocks.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I don't understand. I'm speaking of the opposite of special favors. I said God never spoke to me in an audible voice, and that seeking one seems long odds IMHO.

Both christianity and the old testament dogma, teach that bible-god is ALL ABOUT SPECIAL FAVORITES.

Special Peter. Special Paul. Special Abraham. Special King David. Special--- special---special-- and endless train of very special selected people that bible god DELIBERATELY AND WITH AVARICE PLACES IN A SUPERIOR POSITION TO THE DETRIMENT OF THE REST OF HUMANITY.

This is the opposite of ethical or moral. The bible's god is immoral.

You have clear, unambiguous instructions in the Bible regarding what to do to contact God and to hear from God, however.

Really. That's the lie you are going to go with? IF THEY ARE SO CLEAR?

WHY ARE THERE 40,000 DIFFERENT BRANDS OF "GENUINE CHRISTIAN™" ?

That. That fact-- proves the bible is the exact opposite of "clear"

 

[BilliardsBall]

Well, we have even pictures of that. You also mentioned them.

We have pictures of the Universe as it was about 300,000 years old, while you have no pictures of Jesus taking off to Heaven. Just some stories that have the same evidence of other stories, including King Arthur and Robin Hood.

And you accuse us of too much confidence?

Ciao

- viole

I'm working on a universe photo album. Please send the photos from circa singularity + 300,000 years.

Thanks.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I have looked at the *claims*, but have found the 'prophecies' to be either vague or self-fulfilling.


Available in every religion and philosophy.


Funny, I find it quite 'canny'. The range of behaviors is fairly small and of the sort expected in the society it came from.

How did Israel self-fulfill the prophecies about being a blessing and also persecuted in many nations?

How did Israel self-fulfill dozens of prophecies about its nation circa 1948 CE?

I've considered what you've considered and found it wanting.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Changes between species happen over a course of many generations. There isn't a definite line that separates what is and what is not human. It is populations that change over time. And at no time was the population down to less than 1000.

Think of it like this: there was never a 'first French speaker'. But 2000 years ago, nobody spoke French. Now they do. The language changes gradually over time and was understandable to those who spoke it as a language at each stage.

So there was no 'multiple French speakers produced in one generation'.

No, I was countering the remark that no two humans had incest with my comments that it is eminently logical that evolution, if true, would give rise to a pair or two of humans initially, only.

Be consistent.

 

[Polymath257]

No, I was countering the remark that no two humans had incest with my comments that it is eminently logical that evolution, if true, would give rise to a pair or two of humans initially, only.

Be consistent.

I *am* consistent. And it is *not* logical that evolution would give rise to a pair of humans initially. In fact, it shows a great deal of ignorance to what evolution actually says.

 

[Polymath257]

How did Israel self-fulfill the prophecies about being a blessing and also persecuted in many nations?

Every people is persecuted by some and blessed by others. Nothing remarkable here.

How did Israel self-fulfill dozens of prophecies about its nation circa 1948 CE?

Be specific. Which prophesies were fulfilled by these events? How specific were they?

I've considered what you've considered and found it wanting.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Question: Why do you ignore the Noah story bits, where it states that it was roughly 2 years from request to build an ark, to the ark's finally resting on top of a (apparently not there before) mountain....

If you are willing to ignore the time-frame as described in the bible, why not accept that it was Just A Story?

I'm doing no such thing. There were waters and some mountain peaks covered. The Bible doesn't say, "And then, the mountains never got higher." YECs started down this road thinking about sediment left by the Flood and the shaking of the Earth off a straighter axis...

...I wholly accept the time frames given in the Bible for the Flood.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That is an extremely short period of time for entire mountain ranges to rise, cool, and come to their current state.


Then link to some. I've already cited and linked to one from a YEC who admitted that the massive heat issue can only be resolved with multiple, large-scale miracles.

I don't trust in one YEC who has surrendered to your immense knowledge, I trust Jesus for salvation--the miracle of the resurrection. Why would I care if geology involves some large-scale miracles (if the science and logic point us that way)!

 

[BilliardsBall]

That is patently false. Cave paintings certainly qualify as written documents (one example). As do clay impressions-- some of which were unbaked (and therefore would be destroyed by flooding). (another example)

The YEC's as per their habit, are grasping at non-existent straws. Or, like Behe, they are lying and they KNOW they are lying.

A cave painting is not a document with an alphabet/writing. Unless you think people used cave paintings for thousands of years to transact commerce and justice along with "history".

 

[BilliardsBall]

When discussing geology, a millenium (1000 years) is a *very* short period of time! Even a thousand times that much is short for most of geology.

And uniformitarian assumptions come into it as well. We're not discussing your feelings about a millennium, we're discussing whether geology upholds the theory.