"Evidence" for God - Continued from another thread

[Ella S.]

Continued from this post:
Why I’m not atheist or agnostic.

.
Ella S. People have discovered relatives they did not know they had in their NDE!
FACT: The cave man believed in an "After Life"!.... PROVING man has always believed in an "After Life"!
You say... vivid dreams caused by losing consciousness when your brain is low on oxygen. I reply: What you say is just a THEORY there is NO scientific proof to make it a FACT!

Ella S There are MIRACLES; Miracles are another Evidence! You said you believe in "evidentialism"!

You cannot deny people all over the world, in every century have experienced Miracles!
In "Google" type "Miracle of the Sun" see for yourself! Thousands of people witnessed this MIRACLE! This is just one of many thousands of Miracles that people have experienced over the centuries!!

Miracles are attributed to God!

I (Dogknox20) believe; if the Evidence hit you on the back of the head you would still deny it as non-evidence!!!

I would like sources for each of your following claims:

• That people have discovered relatives they did not know they had in NDEs
• That all "cave men" believed in an afterlife (since as far as I'm aware, the specifics of Neolithic religion remain mysterious to us, but several ancient religions did not have a concept of an afterlife)

On top of that, you are incorrect that NDEs being "vivid dreams caused by losing consciousness when your brain is low on oxygen" is a theory. It's a sustained working hypothesis. That means that it's supported by evidence and experimentation. It could be wrong, but you would have to provide evidence that falsifies it.

I have seen the "miracle of the sun," but by your own definition a miracle is:

A miracle is an event that seems inexplicable by natural or scientific laws[2] and accordingly gets attributed to some supernatural or praeternatural cause. Various religions often attribute a phenomenon characterized as miraculous to the actions of a supernatural being, (especially) a deity, a magician, a miracle worker, a saint, or a religious leader. ETC..

I am not sure how the "miracle of the sun" counts as a miracle by your definition. Can you prove that the "miracle of the sun" had a supernatural or praternatural cause?

 

[ChristineM]

@Ella S.

@Dogknox20 comment

That all "cave men" believed in an afterlife​

Is total rubbish on several levels. One of my hobbies is the study of eary modern humans (cro-magnon). This also sometimes includes neanderthal who lived in the same area.

First, it is highly unlikely that they were "cavemen" but rather followed the hunting to survive. The implication of cavemen is a that they lived in caves. Perhaps they took shelter in caves on occasion but moved on an animals migrated. There is no evidence of long term habitation in caves around centeal and southern Europe.

Second though there is no evidence of cave dwellings some caves were used for painting stories from their lives mostly animals and the hunt. Animals were painted with exquisite detail, hunters were shown as stick figures.

Third the painting they left indicate that the religion of cro magnon was more along the lines of animal worship. There is considerable evidence of this in cave paintings where they are giving praise to a hunted animal that gave up its life to feed them.

Fourth if the believed in an afterlife surely at least some of their artwork would indicate this?

Fifth the neanderthal belief was based around the ancestor. Though they did bury their dead with grave goods it is believed this was personal/ owned property, not that they would take the goods with them to an afterlife.

Sixth there is no evidence that either neanderthal or cro magnon believed in an afterlife

 

[Dogknox20]

Continued from this post:
Why I’m not atheist or agnostic.



I would like sources for each of your following claims:

• That people have discovered relatives they did not know they had in NDEs
• That all "cave men" believed in an afterlife (since as far as I'm aware, the specifics of Neolithic religion remain mysterious to us, but several ancient religions did not have a concept of an afterlife)

On top of that, you are incorrect that NDEs being "vivid dreams caused by losing consciousness when your brain is low on oxygen" is a theory. It's a sustained working hypothesis. That means that it's supported by evidence and experimentation. It could be wrong, but you would have to provide evidence that falsifies it.
I have seen the "miracle of the sun," but by your own definition a miracle is:
I am not sure how the "miracle of the sun" counts as a miracle by your definition. Can you prove that the "miracle of the sun" had a supernatural or praternatural cause?

.
I reply....
Google..."5 Credible Stories of Near Death Experiences"!
Google... "True Stories of Near-Death Experiences."

Google...
"FINAL JOURNEY
I’m a psychiatrist – I study near-death experiences and here’s what people see moments before they die"

Google... "Current NDEs - NDERF Home Page"!


You said... several ancient religions did not have a concept of an afterlife!

I reply FACT: Archeologists have found tools in the graves of "Cave men": This means they believed in an "AFTER LIFE"!

You said... brain is low on oxygen" is a theory. It's a sustained working hypothesis.
....................................................................
hy·poth·e·sis
/hīˈpäTHəsəs/Learn to pronounce
noun
a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

1. "professional astronomers attacked him for popularizing an unconfirmed hypothesis"
   Similar:
   theory
   theorem
   thesis
   conjecture
   supposition
   speculation
   ...................................................................................
   I reply... I don't need to say anything.. It's a THEORY!

You asked....Can you prove that the "miracle of the sun" had a supernatural or praternatural cause?
I reply.. YES I CAN PROVE IT!
Blessed Virgin Mary told the three children that "On October 13 12 noon; she would perform a MIRACLE"!
On October 13 at NOON (70,000) Seventy Thousand witnessed the Miracle! Sceptics and News Paper reporters came and also witnessed the MIRACLE!
Rained buckets before noon; after the Miracle the ground and the people were dry.. NO Mud puddles!

 

[Dogknox20]

@Ella S.

@Dogknox20 comment

That all "cave men" believed in an afterlife​

Is total rubbish on several levels. One of my hobbies is the study of eary modern humans (cro-magnon). This also sometimes includes neanderthal who lived in the same area.

First, it is highly unlikely that they were "cavemen" but rather followed the hunting to survive. The implication of cavemen is a that they lived in caves. Perhaps they took shelter in caves on occasion but moved on an animals migrated. There is no evidence of long term habitation in caves around centeal and southern Europe.

Second though there is no evidence of cave dwellings some caves were used for painting stories from their lives mostly animals and the hunt. Animals were painted with exquisite detail, hunters were shown as stick figures.

Third the painting they left indicate that the religion of cro magnon was more along the lines of animal worship. There is considerable evidence of this in cave paintings where they are giving praise to a hunted animal that gave up its life to feed them.

Fourth if the believed in an afterlife surely at least some of their artwork would indicate this?

Fifth the neanderthal belief was based around the ancestor. Though they did bury their dead with grave goods it is believed this was personal/ owned property, not that they would take the goods with them to an afterlife.

Sixth there is no evidence that either neanderthal or cro magnon believed in an afterlife

ChristineM the fact remains... They (Caveman... People of our long ago past) believed in gods! There is NO evidence that they did NOT believe in an after life!
Your words... they did bury their dead with grave goods it is believed this was personal/ owned property, not that they would take the goods with them to an afterlife.

QUESTION... Why would anyone destroy perfectly good property by placing it in a grave! IF it was NOT intended for the use of the owner in the next life!???? What you say is just conjecture.. (an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.)

 

[ChristineM]

QUESTION... Why would anyone destroy perfectly good property by placing it in a grave! IF it was NOT intended for the use of the owner in the next life!???? What you say is just conjecture.. (an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.)

Ownership. And by the way, neanderthal were not "cavemen" but neanderthal, a totally different evolutionary line to men so don't really count towards your claim. I put them in my list because of what is known about their belief.

I would say take a good hard look at the exhibits (and cellars) of the National Prehistory Museum in les Eyzies, France. And any one of the hundreds of caves with paintings. Not one trace of an after life idea.

Trust me there is lots of evidence. I get involved in archeological digs and have found some of that evidence (my avatar is one example). I have lived in this are for 7 years and visited 3 or 4 times yearly for 10 years before that. I have visited and worked in the majority of caves known to have been frequented by early modern humans (and neanderthal)

Given the copious evidence then i say what you say is conjecture based on no information whatsoever. Unless you can provide something to confirm your claim there is no point in continuing.

 

[ChristineM]

They (Caveman... People of our long ago past) believed in gods!

Early modern humans believed in animals. There is no evidence they had a belief in the supernatural. You are simply makimg up stories to confirm your bias.

There is NO evidence that they did NOT believe in an after life!

There is also no evidence they did not belive in invisible pink unicorns either, your point is?

Given the proliferation of cave art that early modern humans produced, if they believed in supernatural gods, it only natural they would have at least attempted to express their belief in gods or an afterlife in some way. Nope, didn't happen, you are guessing.

 

[Ella S.]

.
I reply....
Google..."5 Credible Stories of Near Death Experiences"!
Google... "True Stories of Near-Death Experiences."

Google...
"FINAL JOURNEY
I’m a psychiatrist – I study near-death experiences and here’s what people see moments before they die"

Google... "Current NDEs - NDERF Home Page"!

None of this constitutes evidence. You have given claims.

Evidence is an observation that indicates a particular conclusion. Stories and rumors are assertions of observation, not observations. We need more thorough documentation than this from reliable sources.

In addition to that, I have read the article of that psychiatrist before, and there is nothing in there that backs up your claim that the dying see relatives they didn't know they had. Unless you can link me a version of the article that does? I haven't seen one.

You said... brain is low on oxygen" is a theory. It's a sustained working hypothesis.
....................................................................
hy·poth·e·sis
/hīˈpäTHəsəs/Learn to pronounce
noun
a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

1. "professional astronomers attacked him for popularizing an unconfirmed hypothesis"
   Similar:
   theory
   theorem
   thesis
   conjecture
   supposition
   speculation
   ...................................................................................
   I reply... I don't need to say anything.. It's a THEORY!

A theory is similar to a hypothesis, but it is not the same thing. A theory generally contains a variety of related hypotheses and it has a higher burden of evidence.

Nonetheless, both are based on evidence, even by the definition you gave here, so my point stands.

You asked....Can you prove that the "miracle of the sun" had a supernatural or praternatural cause?
I reply.. YES I CAN PROVE IT!
Blessed Virgin Mary told the three children that "On October 13 12 noon; she would perform a MIRACLE"!
On October 13 at NOON (70,000) Seventy Thousand witnessed the Miracle! Sceptics and News Paper reporters came and also witnessed the MIRACLE!
Rained buckets before noon; after the Miracle the ground and the people were dry.. NO Mud puddles![/SIZE]

Do you have a source for any of these claims?

 

[Dogknox20]

Ownership. And by the way, Neanderthal were not "cavemen" but neanderthal, a totally different evolutionary line to men so don't really count towards your claim. I put them in my list because of what is known about their belief.

I would say take a good hard look at the exhibits (and cellars) of the National Prehistory Museum in les Eyzies, France. And any one of the hundreds of caves with paintings. Not one trace of an after life idea.

Trust me there is lots of evidence. I get involved in archeological digs and have found some of that evidence (my avatar is one example). I have lived in this are for 7 years and visited 3 or 4 times yearly for 10 years before that. I have visited and worked in the majority of caves known to have been frequented by early modern humans (and neanderthal)

Given the copious evidence then i say what you say is conjecture based on no information whatsoever. Unless you can provide something to confirm your claim there is no point in continuing.

.
ChristineM The point is... Man has always believed in an "After Life"! They have always believed in a "Spirit World" of some kind! The title.. ".Cave Man" is used to mean.. Ancient man! or Prehistoric Man! Neanderthal or not!!!!
The North American Indian believed in "The Great White Spirit"!
The Egyptians believed in an "After Life" and many god'!
The ancient graves found in Mongolia contained horses! (Put there for the owner to use in the next life!)
etc

The things found in graves were intended for the use of the owner in the next life! To put things in the grave just to destroy them is NOT logical!

 

[SkepticThinker]

.
ChristineM The point is... Man has always believed in an "After Life"! They have always believed in a "Spirit World" of some kind! The title.. ".Cave Man" is used to mean.. Ancient man! or Prehistoric Man! Neanderthal or not!!!!
The North American Indian believed in "The Great White Spirit"!
The Egyptians believed in an "After Life" and many god'!
The ancient graves found in Mongolia contained horses! (Put there for the owner to use in the next life!)
etc

The things found in graves were intended for the use of the owner in the next life! To put things in the grave just to destroy them is NOT logical!

I have a question ... let's assume this is true for the sake of argument ...
So, what?

 

[Dogknox20]

None of this constitutes evidence. You have given claims.

Evidence is an observation that indicates a particular conclusion. Stories and rumors are assertions of observation, not observations. We need more thorough documentation than this from reliable sources.

In addition to that, I have read the article of that psychiatrist before, and there is nothing in there that backs up your claim that the dying see relatives they didn't know they had. Unless you can link me a version of the article that does? I haven't seen one.



A theory is similar to a hypothesis, but it is not the same thing. A theory generally contains a variety of related hypotheses and it has a higher burden of evidence.

Nonetheless, both are based on evidence, even by the definition you gave here, so my point stands.



Do you have a source for any of these claims?

Ella S Again I say... You have no proof NDE is not real! You have theory and or hypothesis so what? Thousands of people in the past have experienced NDE! Most all of these people are now not afraid of dying because of their NDE!
As far as MIRICALS go. I gave you PROOF!
A miracle is an event that seems inexplicable by natural or scientific laws[2] and accordingly gets attributed to some supernatural or praeternatural cause. Various religions often attribute a phenomenon characterized as miraculous to the actions of a supernatural being, (especially) a deity, a magician, a miracle worker, a saint, or a religious leader. ETC

GOOGLE "Miracle" there are many recorded there!
As far as MIRICALS go. I gave you PROOF!
Blessed Virgin Mary told the three children that "On October 13 12 noon; she would perform a MIRACLE"!
On October 13 at NOON (70,000) Seventy Thousand witnessed the Miracle! Sceptics and News Paper reporters came and also witnessed the MIRACLE!
Rained buckets before noon; after the Miracle the ground and the people were dry.. NO Mud puddles!

Try typing in on GOOGLE... The Miracle of the Sun (Portuguese: Milagre do Sol), also known as the Miracle of Fátima, is a series of events reported to have occurred miraculously on 13 October 1917, attended by a large crowd who had gathered in Fátima, Portugal, in response to a prophecy made by three shepherd children, Lúcia Santos and Francisco and Jacinta Marto. The prophecy was that the Virgin Mary (referred to as Our Lady of Fátima), would appear and perform miracles on that date. Newspapers published testimony from witnesses who said that they had seen extraordinary solar activity, such as the Sun appearing to "dance" or zig-zag in the sky, careen towards the Earth, or emit multicolored light and radiant colors. According to these reports, the event lasted approximately ten minutes. ETC...

 

[ChristineM]

Man has always believed in an "After Life"

Unless you have evidence that beats the evidence i see regularly then there is no point in going on

 

[Dogknox20]

I have a question ... let's assume this is true for the sake of argument ...
So, what?

.
SkepticThinker goods to meet you...
Ella S said in a past post.. "She wants evidence and that she believes in "evidentialism"!

My post points her to Miracles! There is Near Death Experiences, there is ancient man who has believed in the next life after this life! Man has always believed in gods!
In the NDE; People have found relatives they did not know they had! I pointed her to Google.. "Near Death Experiences"... There are many recorded! BUT....

SkepticThinker but all this is not good enough for Ella S she refuses to consider any "Evidence"!

I am sure if "evidence' slapped her up the side of her head she would not see it!

 

[ChristineM]

The North American Indian believed in "The Great White Spirit"!

Not 30 to 40 thousand years ago, native American are youngsters compared to pre history and there is no evidence the early native Americans had any religious beliefs although they probably did. To attribute you belief ti them without evidence is not a good way to go here

The Egyptians believed in an "After Life" and many god'!

And even younger.

I think you have a very distorted impression of the timeline of human history

 

[Dogknox20]

Unless you have evidence that beats the evidence i see regularly then there is no point in going on

.
????????????????? You have my attention! WHAT....

ChristineM what is the evidence you see regularly?

 

[ChristineM]

.
????????????????? You have my attention! WHAT....

ChristineM what is the evidence you see regularly?

Previous explained in an earlier post. I am not playing your silly games or repeating my self for you to ignore again

 

[Dogknox20]

Previous explained in an earlier post. I am not playing your silly games or repeating my self for you to ignore again

Your words... To attribute you belief to them without evidence is not a good way to go here

I reply: To say they: "Ancient People" did not have their god' because there is NO evidence is like saying... "They would have told me if they believed in gods!" LOGIC ALONE says they had gods!
Example... If man does not understand a thing it must be a god... "A god of fire"! etc! Thunder MUST be a god!
They believed in spirits!
The cave paintings show animals they hunted ... IT could be they wanted the Spirit of these animals for themselves! You cannot say there is NO evidence!

You cannot say they did not have "Near Death Experiences"! If we today have them then they way back then also had NDE!
NDE= You see peoples that have died before you!
You see god you see evil!

 

[ChristineM]

Your words... To attribute you belief to them without evidence is not a good way to go here

I reply: To say they: "Ancient People" did not have their god' because there is NO evidence is like saying... "They would have told me if they believed in gods!" LOGIC ALONE says they had gods!
Example... If man does not understand a thing it must be a god... "A god of fire"! etc! Thunder MUST be a god!
They believed in spirits!
The cave paintings show animals they hunted ... IT could be they wanted the Spirit of these animals for themselves! You cannot say there is NO evidence!

You are confusing ancient with pre historic

Churches temples, mosques etc are adorned with religious imagery. Such places always have.
So show me one religious place dating to pre history

And could be doesn't cut it... It could be that they were painting animals (or right they did) and painting images of the hunt (yes, that too) and painting sequence of how to trap animals (and that).

And you cannot say there is evidence so what is the point?

 

[ChristineM]

You cannot say they did not have "Near Death Experiences"! If we today have them then they way back then also had NDE!
NDE= You see peoples that have died before you!
You see god you see evil!

I see you edited your post.

Who said anything about NDE? Oh you did ... I certainly didn't so don't imp!y tjst i have, its very rude.

My point has always been to contend you claim

That all "cave men" believed in an afterlife

For which there is no evidence

 

[Subduction Zone]

It appears that people are trying to approach this somewhat scientifically. That is good. In the sciences an ad hoc explanation is of no value. And there is a clear standard for what a hypothesis is. And without at least a working hypothesis one does not have evidence by definition.

A hypothesis is just a model that describes what happens. It also has to be falsifiable. The number one question one should ask oneself is how would I test my ideas to show that they are wrong? One cannot rely on others to refute your concept for you. That would not count as a valid test. If one cannot test ones idea it is not falsifiable and therefore not scientific and by definition has no evidence since one can hand wave away almost anything with an ad hoc explanation.

 

[Dogknox20]

You are confusing ancient with pre historic

Churches temples, mosques etc are adorned with religious imagery. Such places always have.
So show me one religious place dating to pre history

And could be doesn't cut it... It could be that they were painting animals (or right they did) and painting images of the hunt (yes, that too) and painting sequence of how to trap animals (and that).

And you cannot say there is evidence so what is the point?

ChristineM The point is... Man has ALWAYS believed in gods of some sort! And it could be they never have doesn't cut it...
All you are doing is saying "They did not believe in gods because they did not come out and say it!"!

I am saying LOGIC says it! FACT: Man has many gods in mans (recorded) history .... As you go back in history the ignorance of man is more profound.. THUS more chance of man having many god's why back then!

ChristineM You cannot say "Ancient man never ever have had "Near Death Experiences"! (NDE)
LOGIC says: If man has NDE today then Man had NDE way back then!

You want evidence?? Theory of gods in mans ancient past falls in my favor!